maybe it''s better for GIA and AGS not to have a cut grade on their cert...

[Dancing Fire]

that way everybody could decide for themselves what is a ideal cut since everyone has their own preferences,but they should list all the specs pav angle,crown angle ..etc

 

[valeria101]

True... you CAN do it ringt now and neither GIA not AGS will send you to jail for the sin of good taste!

Actually, the mantra that all diamonds should look the same or else they are not 'ideal' sounds horrific!

However, are you sure you want the seller to charge you for what HIS good taste claims to be the best ? This works after you know what you want and what is out there, and know your jeweler and know that he is already known for his good taste (etc.) Something that most shoppers seem to do without

, for better of for worse. Not all customers need protection, but most do. Live and let live...

Do you think that the establishment of these standards for rounds limit choice?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Cut grades can be good and they can be bad.
Life was never ever going to get more simple.
The cut grades we have had have not been adequate - AGS 0 for instance misses out loads of nice stones and includes a few we would rather it didn't and will not when their new system comes out possibly as early as mid 2005

HRD / IGI etc include many of the missed out stones, but include more that we would prefer were downgraded.

GIA currently get to grade a larger proportion of diamonds that do not make it into any of those other labs higher grades - because they give virtually no information.

 

[oldminer]

Giving all the parameters of cut is commendable. I see no reason not to provide it. Consumers should not generally use raw data to make final purchase decisions, but there is no reason that these facts can't be provided. They are not secret for any purpose. Parameters make very safe screening tools for anyone.

Since consumers really don't have the skill or experience to discern a pretty good diamond from a very fine diamond in terms of brilliancy, scintillation and intensity, it takes a more skilled assistant. That can be an experienced jeweler, a gemologist, a diamond dealer, or a skilled appraiser.

Consumers, and diamond experts, can make some very good judgments using paramter measurement data. Consumers then need the next step which is either machine that measures light aspects or a skilled grader's assistance. Sometimes there are wonderfully brilliant diamonds that have "odd" or unusal parameters, but I have seen none that had no "too thick", "too deep", "too shallow", "strange looking", or "too thin" sort of comment required when any expert looked at them. They might please someone like my friend Garry Holloway who wants to maximize the light return aspects in his inventory, but they had what I would consider to be "faults" in cutting that would cause any traditional diamond dealer to argue that their value was to be questioned and haggled over. (Dealers haggle over everything anyway). Garry's objective to buy and sell diamonds based on Ideal-Scope results allows his customers to have very pretty diamonds and it makes diamond dealers very happy since he can buy ideal and non-traditional, quasi-ideal diamonds too. Diamond dealers need to sell all their stock, not just have them cherry picked for "ideal cut" stones.

It would be very naive or self-serving to suggest that just putting cut data on grading reports is sufficient. Consumers and the trade are rushing toward defining the cut and light return aspects of diamonds. It is the industry's role to give customers what they want or they will buy some other product. Consumers (and dealers) should not need to "decide for themselves" when there are better ways to make decisions.

 

[strmrdr]

Even with it in place we will still argue fractions of a millimeter here.
The difference it makes is to Joe Sheeple when he asks the maul store clerk whats the cut he might get a better answer than round.

The downside is that it is likely to drive the prices up on well cut diamonds.
My fear is that the top cut grade will become like D or IF is today an excuse to charge outragous markups on cheap rough that gets a great cut
aka 8*

 

[oldminer]

I beg to disagree on a couple points. The rough for fine diamonds is not "cheap". It does get created in the earth for free, but getting it out and going through the channels of distribution make it rather costly. Then one adds "value" by cutting it. It takes more effort to make a super cut stone than a regular cut. A little more weight is lost in the process, too. The end results in a certain degree of rarity or scarcity, and prices follow suit. No one sets the retail value of a diamond except the market and the seller. It can float high to low depending on the circumstances. As capitalists we buy into this market freedom. No one forces anyone to choose only ideally cut diamonds. There is great marketing pressure, but not everyone goes for it. If everyone insisted on ideal cutting we would see more stones cut that way since there is really no shortage of the correct material to make them, only a shortage of the willingness to pay the extra costs.

Fractions of millimeters separate the best diamonds from the worst diamonds. This is all what the process is all about. It may seem similar to the old argument about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but decisions and money rest on this discourse. It is important to understand how to discern a good diamond from either a fair one or a superb one because financial decsions of importance flow from this process.

The great cuts, such as 8*, get not one dollar more than they are worth to someone seeking the maximum of "perfection". This is not for everyone. I settle on far less perfect things all the time. Most of us do. If someone wants to buy into perfection, I see no harm in their decision and in giving them the exact tools they need to make a proper choice.

They are also free to see that I don't buy into such perfection personally. This may influence their choice, too. I don't judge what others choose, but use my skills to assist them to make right choices that fit their own personality and budget.

 

[strmrdr]

Im going to have to disagree with your disagreeing points a little :}

Rough is rough the same rough that can be used to cut a egl certed low cost diamond can be used to cut an 8* the price difference is cut and marketing.
True there can be more weight loss and I will give you the point that it takes longer but is it enough to make up the cost difference?
I dought that it takes any longer to cut an 8* than an aca or one of rhino's top diamonds.
Marketing makes the price difference plain and simple.
Which to be fair you mention.

When I say cheap rough im talking compared to other rough take the lower cost I-j I1 rough and cut it well and charge a huge premium for it.
Makes for some real nice profit margins over starting with some G/VS2 rough and selling it at a lesser markup dont it?
Its a fact that they sell the lesser color/clarity rough once cut for more than anyone else does.

While were on the subject of disagreeing:
Buying decisions are made dozens of times a day on raw data here by consumers.
True they are ran thru other filters first.
Which is what I see the vendors here and the tests they run as filters to pre-sort the diamonds we prefere for us.
Ofcourse the vendors do a lot more than that but its what sets them apart from the thousands of others out there.
But when it comes down to its often the raw specs that make the decision.

 

[oldminer]

To continue the dialogue:

QUOTE out of context: "Its a fact that they sell the lesser color/clarity rough once cut for more than anyone else does."

I RESPOND: Who IS "they"? I/J I1 color diamonds sell for way less than G/VS stones anyway. What vast premium profit is anyone getting? I see prices set by market demand, not be diamond cutters. It is definitely marketing that creates demand. Profits are tight. Competition dictates short margins.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

2nd QUOTE out of context:

"While were on the subject of disagreeing:
Buying decisions are made dozens of times a day on raw data here by consumers....
But when it comes down to its often the raw specs that make the decision."

I RESPOND: I know that buying is often based on raw data but that it does not make it a correct process for novices to follow blindly. Dealers, those with experience, can safely trade on specs, but it is not such a safe bet for consumers. Specs do help a whole lot, but there is more data for consumers that they often don't have access to.

Sure, consumers do buy on specs every day. Most are pleased, yet occasionally someone does not get what they had hoped for. This happens to dealers, too. Dealers just adjust the price and go on while consumers don't have that luxury of holding many other diamonds. They have a major headache to deal with.

I have promoted and fine tuned the AGA Cut Class specs for 10 years plus and have told many people of their use and limitations. I encourage people to use specs and to also be aware of the potential for some unforeseen problems on the occasional diamond that happens to score well when it really shouldn't.

 

[valeria101]

If I get it right Strmdr, you say something along the line: >

Well, sure so. And this might even sound worse if you would add that, unlike color and clarity, cut is made not born... so someone is guilty for it's good, bad and ugly and it ain't Mother Nature this time.

So what? If it wasn't for this weird diamond market to make up value, we'd be stuck with a handfull of true gems that nature alone makes rare and beautiful, but almost no one can enjoy. Not great.

Fortunatey, each of us is free to got their own route. The professionals here need to worry about this, I suppose, and whoever tades into this market - for you an I there would be some little sparklers to enjoy

 

[strmrdr]

They == 8*
"Its a fact that 8* sells the lesser color/clarity rough once cut for more than anyone else does."

2nd QUOTE responce:
I cant say I disagree.
I wouldnt buy on specs from a vendor without a proven return policy.
Re-reading what you wrote in your original post on specs. I think we were actualy saying the same thing from different angles and I took what you wrote the wrong way. Sorry about that.

Thanks for taking the time to respond here I have learned a lot from you over the time iv been here :}

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

You two are not that far away from each other - but here is a completely different idea:

At the Moscow diamond Cut conference Gabi Tolkowsky proposed this interesting idea:

Make 2 copies of every certificate - 1 for consumers and 1 for the trade.
Take all the trade jargon out of the first, but ensure full and honest disclosure of any non ethical information (remember that most of the watch-outs are not currently disclosed on reports - so this is an ethical proposal - not a concealment idea).
The trade copy has loads of data that would only keep our dear Pyramid type person awake at night for 3 months - so experts can buy in the traditional manner (dinasaurs like Diamonds by Lauren et al)

Now consider this as an idea that can move us from here to a better place, rather than heretical. Use De Bono thinking

 

[strmrdr]

No val,
My worry is that instead of improving cut it will be sold as D and IF are that it is rare and costly and not easy to find.
So instead of being used as a tool to improve cut accross the board it will just raise prices on well cut diamonds and nothing will change with the rest.

 

[strmrdr]

Cut Nut I dont like that idea.
When is the diamond trade going to get away from the idea that consumers are idiots and need to be "protected" from too much information?

Now if it became a 2 page report with the first page being summaries and scales and the second the raw data them Im ok with that.

 

[oldminer]

The idea of a "grading" document for consumers with little information and another for dealers with all the information would be suggested by a member of the diamond cutting community, wouldn't it? Now, I can see why too much information might serve to confuse a novice, but will the required data be presented? WIll the end result of the grading be very clear or continue to be masked behind a smoke-screen?

No doubt, diamond dealers would like to continue on the less information basis while informed consumers would prefer otherwise. This is be a very interesting period to be involved in the process. There is definite action on the subject of cut quality that was never discussed much before.

 

[Hest88]

As others have said, there are plenty of people out there who are going to love having a cut grade on their cert so they don't have to wade through numbers. The cut grade, in essence, becomes like a brand for the average consumer. Instead of buying HoF or Tiffany, he will just buy a GIA Ideal.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 4/27/2004 11:19:30 AM strmrdr wrote:



No val,
My worry is that instead of improving cut it will be sold as D and IF are that it is rare and costly and not easy to find.

----------------

Why not?

Not every piece of rotten wood is worth carving: most gets' made into matches and melt into paper! This is such 'what if-ing' but with a manufacturing criterion gets cleraly touted as quantifiable price factor, one can start to hope for more varied and spectacular diamond inventions (cut models that is).

Old thread though... just happening to match with some recent papers I am going through

Few would wear 'rare earth' for adornment anyway - although this is by all means a fascinating, global cultural phenomenon.

 

[niceice]

----------------
On 4/27/2004 2:30:59 AM vtigger86 wrote:

that way everybody could decide for themselves what is a ideal cut since everyone has their own preferences,but they should list all the specs pav angle,crown angle ..etc----------------

Nobody is stopping you or anybody else from buying to their preference... People tend to do that anyway which is why there are all types of cars, houses, clothes, etc. and all of that is "rated" in one way or another isn't it?