M Color

[Takedown]

I am new to the forum and in need of some advice regarding color. I have purchased diamonds in the past but have never considered looking at anything lower than I/J color. I was at a local store yesterday looking at .75ct stones but not seeing anything in stock that really grabbed my eye for the price range I was looking at. I found a really nice K color I1 .71ct with great sparkle that was "okay" and in my price range. Then I found an M color VS1 .80 that was absolutely perfect and although it's color rating indicated more yellow it in fact showed less color than the K diamond even when placed on it's side in a folded piece of paper. This diamond was only a few hundred dollars more.

My question is how much emphasis do you (should I) put on the color grade? (It's GIA certified btw) It looks much more like an I color to me. I also really like that it's a VS1, I've never purchased a diamond of that quality. I"m going back today so I can see it in natural light just to make sure.

Thanks.

 

[I like ice]

Unless there is some other reason to be concerned with color, such as matching another stone, I think all that really matters is that you are happy with the color of the stone! Is this stone for you or someone else? If someone else, do you know if they are "color sensitive"? Personally I am always drawn to the lower color stones. A really well cut M may very well look as white, and perform better than a more poorly cut stone of a higher color.

 

[Takedown]

Unless there is some other reason to be concerned with color, such as matching another stone, I think all that really matters is that you are happy with the color of the stone! Is this stone for you or someone else? If someone else, do you know if they are "color sensitive"? Personally I am always drawn to the lower color stones. A really well cut M may very well look as white, and perform better than a more poorly cut stone of a higher color.

This will be an engagement ring for my GF. I don't know that she is color sensitive or not. We've both been married before; she only mentioned in passing how small her other ring was and that she doesn't like yellow gold. I placed the M in a whit gold setting and it looked very nice. The salesman brought out a 1ct I color SI1 that was twice the money. It was very hard to see the size difference and it wasn't even close to looking as brilliant as the M color VS1.

 

[decodelighted]

What shape stone? What cut style? Are we talking Modern Round Brilliant? I'm moderately color sensitive I guess so "M" would probably be too warm for me in a ring stone. I think casual observers are going to notice tint in an "M" color round brilliant.


ETA: Unless it is misgraded somehow. Can you take it to an independent appraiser to check out? If it's the one that's really speaking to you -- really check it out in all sorts of lighting conditions. I'd hate for you to be surprised later.

 

[CaratLover2]

You REALLY REALLY need to find out if she is colour sensitive or not. Also, does the store have a buy-back or up-grade policy ... just in case?

For an e-ring, I would advise going down in clarity and size, before going below J in color - unless she wants a warm coloured diamond and has specifically asked for it. An extremely well cut stone, can mask the colour. Can you tell us anything about the stone? Is it AGS Ideal or GIA excellent?

If you are on a budget a 0.50ct "white" diamond in a halo looks stunning! Here is an example - http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/Jewelry/Rings-Antique-Vintage/71ct-center-Transitional-Cut/18182075_MCSP3h#!i=1398658227&k=rRLQTtr

It sounds to me like you need to do more research and ask more questions. If you re-post asking for help, and stating your desired cut (ie round, cushion, princess, etc) and your budget, someone may help you!

 

[audball]

This should help. It's by FAR my favorite lesson on Color.
http://vimeo.com/3288695

 

[TitanCi]

Fluorescence? Perhaps that's helping the color???

EDIT: the first few minutes of that video are psychedelic!!! WHOA.

 

[I like ice]

What shape stone? What cut style? Are we talking Modern Round Brilliant? I'm moderately color sensitive I guess so "M" would probably be too warm for me in a ring stone. I think casual observers are going to notice tint in an "M" color round brilliant.

I currently have a RB stone that was sold (non-certified) as an "M". When appraised in it's platinum setting it was graded as a "J-K". To my eyes (and my daughters) I really don't see any yellow. For me, cut is way more important than color, but it all a very personal decision. I know for many PS'ers anything less than icy white just won't do If at all possible find out what is important to her (size, color, clarity) before you buy.

Wherever you buy, make sure they have a solid return policy. That way, if she is "color sensitive" you can be sure that your GF winds up with something she truly loves.

 

[Takedown]

What shape stone? What cut style? Are we talking Modern Round Brilliant? I'm moderately color sensitive I guess so "M" would probably be too warm for me in a ring stone. I think casual observers are going to notice tint in an "M" color round brilliant.

It's a round brilliant, very good cut with medium blue fluorescence.

 

[Takedown]

Fluorescence? Perhaps that's helping the color???

EDIT: the first few minutes of that video are psychedelic!!! WHOA.

Yes, medium blue fluorescence.

I looked at it again at lunch today in the daylight and could see slightly more color than when inside. It's still a very nice diamond. It's actually a .88ct.

 

[Takedown]

You REALLY REALLY need to find out if she is colour sensitive or not. Also, does the store have a buy-back or up-grade policy ... just in case?

They do have a 100% upgrade policy. I have the stone on lay-away and will look around for another week or so before taking it home just to be sure. It's much bigger and brighter than other stones in the .75 range; gonna be hard to pass up just because of a little color I think.

 

[webdiva]

You REALLY REALLY need to find out if she is colour sensitive or not. Also, does the store have a buy-back or up-grade policy ... just in case?

They do have a 100% upgrade policy. I have the stone on lay-away and will look around for another week or so before taking it home just to be sure. It's much bigger and brighter than other stones in the .75 range; gonna be hard to pass up just because of a little color I think.

But do they have a refund policy? If they don't, you'll be stuck choosing from their selection. is it GIA certified? And How much is it - we can show you things in that range...

 

[Takedown]

You REALLY REALLY need to find out if she is colour sensitive or not. Also, does the store have a buy-back or up-grade policy ... just in case?

They do have a 100% upgrade policy. I have the stone on lay-away and will look around for another week or so before taking it home just to be sure. It's much bigger and brighter than other stones in the .75 range; gonna be hard to pass up just because of a little color I think.

But do they have a refund policy? If they don't, you'll be stuck choosing from their selection. is it GIA certified? And How much is it - we can show you things in that range...

They have a 60 day refund policy. It is GIA certified and is priced at $2360.00 Thanks.

 

[webdiva]

That's an option for you. I do think M is really risky. I also don't think that's great price for an M.

Here are some options from reputable online dealers:
.72 K VS1 Hearts & Arrows cut - $2100-ish - http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9280/
.79 H VS2 - $2500-ish - http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9251/
.85 J SI2 - $2700-0=ish - http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/8511/
.79 H SI2 - Hearts & Arrows cut - $2900-ish - http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9323/

Solitaire at GOG is around $300 - plus no tax on everything. How does that sound?

 

[Takedown]

That's an option for you. I do think M is really risky. I also don't think that's great price for an M.

Here are some options from reputable online dealers:
.72 K VS1 Hearts & Arrows cut - $2100-ish - http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9280/
.79 H VS2 - $2500-ish - http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9251/
.85 J SI2 - $2700-0=ish - http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/8511/
.79 H SI2 - Hearts & Arrows cut - $2900-ish - http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9323/

Solitaire at GOG is around $300 - plus no tax on everything. How does that sound?

I'm actually about $500 over what I was hoping to spend already... the only reason I'm almost okay with it is because of the .88ct and the fact that I found a K color that was darker than the M and a J that was almost identical at the same store. This is the lightest M color I've seen; perhaps because of the medium blue fluorescence? It looks really good, I'm hung up a little on the paper grade (which I should just get over it).

 

[Christina...]

I think that you really need to assess the color in many many different lighting environments. I didn't think that I was color sensitive at all until I recently purchased a GIA J and I was surprised at just how much color I could see in some lighting environments. In stores, it's icy white, in natural daylight, super white, but at home or in the car (where I spend most of my time) it's warm, not yellow at all but warm.

It's possible that this M looks whiter than other K and J"s are because of the labs that graded the stones. EGL is much softer than GIA so EGL may grade a stone a J when it's really an L or M. Or a K could be an O/P, in fact very often lower colored stones get sent to EGL for grading because the dealers are hoping for the better color grade. Better color= more money. I'm sort of surprised that this stone was sent to GIA because it's an M and only a very good cut.

I also think that men put more emphasis on the weight of the diamond then the color and clarity. I think that women focus more on a nice blend of all the C's. This is only my opinion, and there are many of us here, so I'm sure that you will hear many others, but I wouldn't want an M color ering, nor would I want an I1 ering. I would rather go down in size and stay near colorless and eye clean. A three stone, or a halo setting are both cost efficient ways of adding finger coverage on a budget.

Have you considered the second hand market? There are some deals to be had, and there are some incredible shoppers on this forum. I've seen some of them pull some stellar deals out their hats


EDIT: I just wanted to add that you should check the diameter of the .88 and compare it to other well cut GIA and AGS stones of the same weight to see if they are similar. It's possible since this stone has been graded as a very good cut instead of excellent, that it may be steep and deep, which would hide some weight of the stone and make it look smaller face up than one that was well cut. It could also be shallow/ shallow which would make it look larger face up, but both of these would cause light performance issues that could make the stone look even smaller. We always recommend that people shop for GIA EX or AGS ideal to maximize light performance and the visual size of the diamond.

 

[webdiva]

I agree with Christina - let us help you. What is your budget for the entire ring and we can find something. Just because the M was whiter than the K doesn't mean that the K was representative of a true K or that your gf will like it. Ultimately, it's up to you - but we are awesome bargain hunters.

What are the dimensions of the .88?

 

[Takedown]

I agree with Christina - let us help you. What is your budget for the entire ring and we can find something. Just because the M was whiter than the K doesn't mean that the K was representative of a true K or that your gf will like it. Ultimately, it's up to you - but we are awesome bargain hunters.

What are the dimensions of the .88?

I don't have the specs with me, the paper work is with diamond on lay-away while I decide what to do.

 

[Enerchi]

This should help. It's by FAR my favorite lesson on Color.
http://vimeo.com/3288695

Great video - thanks Audball for posting that! It actually kind of got me thinking how amazing an LMNO would be set in YG or RG... bezelling and details started to dance thru my head. "head dancing" ideas often turn out to be expensive!

To the OP - I agree that if you post your budget and style requests, PSers may be able to work something out that would really dazzle your lady love and impress your wallet.

 

[packrat]

Enerchi, M's in yg are amazing, and I want to bezel mine for sure.

 

[Takedown]

To the OP - I agree that if you post your budget and style requests, PSers may be able to work something out that would really dazzle your lady love and impress your wallet.

My budget was originally $2k... I have and am willing to go a little more for the right stone. I also have my eye on another stone at the same store - RB .63ct H color SI2 that looks very nice an is $680 cheaper at $1650; but obviously it's also .25ct smaller

Ideally I would like a .75ct that looks great to the naked eye and is also around $2k.

 

[webdiva]

To the OP - I agree that if you post your budget and style requests, PSers may be able to work something out that would really dazzle your lady love and impress your wallet.

My budget was originally $2k... I have and am willing to go a little more for the right stone. I also have my eye on another stone at the same store - RB .63ct H color SI2 that looks very nice an is $680 cheaper at $1650; but obviously it's also .25ct smaller

Ideally I would like a .75ct that looks great to the naked eye and is also around $2k.

Ok - we'll go a-hunting! BTW, dimensions are the most important aspect of size - since carat weight is deceiving. A well cut .65 can be bigger than a badly cut .75. (I just saw Christina's edit and she went over that too). That's why I was asking for dimensions so that we can match or get close to the dimensions you were seeing on the M. If you DO end up buying the M, all of the stones we find you can be used as "comparables" to negotiate with the jeweler - I do think it's too high for an M. If you can get the GIA number, we can get all the info we need from it (other than light performance - that we need an Idealscope for).

I think that the secondary market (pre-owned) is fabulous in your price range. I do see the issue of being able to upgrade or return it, if it's not to her taste though. One option is to re-sell, which assuming you get a great price shouldn't be an issue. A ring can be easily refurbished at a jeweler - they'll polish it, clean it and re-rhodium dip it. You may not be able to tell that it's not brand new!

Just as an example: here's an entire set incl. a .78 GIA certed diamond at $2000 : http://diamondbistro.com/category/216/Natural-Diamond-Center/listings/29123/14K-White-gold-VictorianArt-Deco-Style-ring-set.html Get this thing pro polished (and now I see the two rings are soldered together - so they need to be separated by a jeweler) for a $200 and it'll be extremely shiny and pretty. This lady is just upgrading, so no bad juju from the ring.

That .72 I posted earlier is a great price - it has great spread at 5.75 mm - which is a larger diameter than the one you see in my avatar. It's a very good cut with documentation to back it up - super sparkly. You can also order it un-set and send it back if you're unhappy with it. Or send it back to me set if you like it.
.72 K VS1 Hearts & Arrows cut - $2100-ish - http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9280/ with a solitaire - you're looking at $2490-ish out the door.

To compare to the M - at the same price - here's a .77 J SI1 Hearts & Arrows AGS000 (ideal cut) at $2370 with the pricescope wire discount: http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1464803.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131
at 5.8 mm diameter - this gets a lower HCA rating than the diamond below, but AGS does rate it's light performance at ideal - which is very reassuring!

This HCA 1.1 rated (tool listed in your top right corner under Tools - a helpful selection tool) is only $1890 and warrants having James Allen do an Idealscope for you. It's also 5.75 mm in diameter
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-SI2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1482815.asp
Plus $420 solitaire (not incl. the 10% off coupons for this vendor you can find online) - http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-ringssolitairering/item_57-8435.asp Puts you out the door at $2300-ish

How big was your gf's last ring, the one you want to be bigger than?

 

[webdiva]

.7 I color HCA 1.5 - also needs an idealscope from JA :
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1477618.asp
$1990 with the PS wire discount

 

[Takedown]

I called and got the numbers from the report on the M

Measurements: 6.03 x 3.83 mm
Carat Weight: .88
Color: M
Clarity: VS1
Cut Grade: Very Good

Depth: 63.3%
Table: 60%

 

[webdiva]

I called and got the numbers from the report on the M

Measurements: 6.03 x 3.83 mm
Carat Weight: .88
Color: M
Clarity: VS1
Cut Grade: Very Good

Depth: 63.3%
Table: 60%

It would be best to have the GIA cert number to look it up so we can get all the angles, however looking at the 63.3% it's overly deep and does not face up the way a .88 should. You won't see much different bestween the .7xs I've been posted (5.84 vs 6.03) - .2 or .3 mm is like 2/3 hairs beside each other. All of the diamonds I've posted will be sparklier (and therefore appear larger to both her and onlookers).

 

[ariel144]

Take a look at these Old European cuts by GOG August Vintage Round, they perform amazingly, you will not be disappointed with one of these.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9061/

Shape: Round
Carat Weight: 0.67ct
Color: J
Clarity: SI2
Optical Symmetry: August Vintage
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Ideal
Fluorescence: None
Lab Report: AGS
Lab Report #: 104056305006
In House: Yes
Width: 5.49mm
Length: 5.52mm
Depth: 3.51mm
Table Percentage: 50.70%
Depth Percentage: 63.80%
Crown ∠: 35.21°
Crown Depth: 17.37%
Pavilion ∠: 41.31°
Pavilion Depth: 42.42%
Policy: Lifetime Guarantee
Price: $2,080
(Bank wire price: $2,010)

 

[WinkHPD]

<Snip>

My question is how much emphasis do you (should I) put on the color grade? (It's GIA certified btw) It looks much more like an I color to me. I also really like that it's a VS1, I've never purchased a diamond of that quality. I"m going back today so I can see it in natural light just to make sure.

Thanks.

It's really about the cutting. With proper cutting the "lower" colors can be incredible bargains. Larger, and less expensive, than smaller stones with "good" paper. Often, because of their larger size and larger virtual facets they can even be more beautiful than the smaller more pedigreed stone.

You intended will not be wearing the paper but the diamond. She has expressed desire for a larger stone and this may be a great stone for her.

Is it possible to include her in the decision? She has told you what she wants, so she knows you are looking. Instead of investing a lot of money into an unknown, why not get her to be part of the process. She may absolutely love this stone, or hate it. I think it might be much better to include her in the decision than to try to make it for her.

Just my thoughts.

Wink

 

[Takedown]

I decided to take her with me and let her choose. She actually preferred the M over all the others.

 

[Enerchi]

Hey that's great news Takedown - that she liked the stone you selected AND you involved her in the decision making - double kudo's to you!!

So pleased you've found something that you both like and works with your budget... yippee for you both.

Must say... this and a few other threads have really piqued my interest in the warmer tones of diamonds, also the "K colour w faint Brown" thread that Jill_s has going on hmmmm

 

[WinkHPD]

YAY! The eyes win again!

Good job.

Wink