Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA...?

[Dag]

I'm totally new to the world of diamonds but I've been reading a lot of the posts and information from this community.

Just when I decided to bite the bullet and go for a Tiffany's e-ring and thought I had found THE ring, the lab report I was sent scored a 4.0 on the HCA. When I tried to ask about the score, the sales rep just says that T&Co diamonds are always excellent... blah blah blah.

Can I get some advice please? Is this still something worth considering or should I tell the sales rep to keep looking? She apparently already looked far and wide at other locations...

Here are the specs:

Round Brilliant 1.12ct
6.64x6.67x4.13mm
Fluorescence: None
Cut: Excellent
Sym: V. Good
Polish: V. Good
Depth: 62.1%
Table: 57%
CH% 14.9%
CA: 34.4 degrees
PA: 41.3 degrees
Girdle: Med - slightly thick
Cutlet: None

I'm not located in a city with a T&Co, so I'm basically buying this sight unseen... which is why I want to be as sure as reasonably possible before I commit to buying this thing. It will be a hassle to return or exchange after the fact. Thanks for any advice you can offer!!

 

[06pvc]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

I have no experience with tiffany's so I can't comment on the quality of vetting.

However that doesn't seem like a well cut diamond.

Even beyond the HCA score, a diamond with VG Polish and Symmetry isn't cream of the crop.

Here is a stone at GOG with similar angles that is has good light performance despite a poor HCA score.
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9252/

So it is not impossible for the diamond to be good, however your putting a lot of faith behind Tiffany's word.

 

[Dag]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

Thanks for your input pvc.

Good points on it probably not being the cream of the crop. I don't know how much faith to put into Tiffany... Everyone seems to say they have strict quality control, but the first (and only) lab report I look at scores a 4.0... so I'm confused. Unless the HCA potentially gives false bad scores.

Thanks for looking up the stone on GOG, though it still does have a 3.3 score, which is still superior to the 4.0 I'm getting on the Tiffany stone.

I'm gonna try getting maybe another sales rep to look for me. Maybe the first one missed a few...

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

No the HCA doesn't.

Tiffany's diamonds aren't cut for ideal light return. It's not how they screen their stones. You can find Tiffany stones that have good numbers, but as you've seen there are some that aren't good at all.

If you want a Tiffany round brilliant diamond here's the best advice I can give you.

Spend 65 bucks on an idealscope. Learn to interpret what it shows you and take it with you. Use it on the diamonds there until you find a stone that performs well. Buy that one.

http://www.ideal-scope.com/cart_zoom_item.asp?Id=53&ShowAdd=Y

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

if i were to pay the Tiff premium it better be an EX,EX,Ex stone not just VG,VG.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

T&CO stones are not made equal. Get them to show you a few stones until you find one with the numbers that are suitable. They frequently only look at color and clarity versus the actual cut (they assume all their cut is top knotch when they are not).

 

[Dag]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

Thanks all.

So I guess the consensus is that one shouldn't trust T&Co just because they are T&Co. I'll maybe call a few stores and have different reps do searches for me. Guess I'll be a pain in the rear-end, but for what I'm paying, I'm expecting the stone to dazzle and not fizzle out on me.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

Thanks all.

So I guess the consensus is that one shouldn't trust T&Co just because they are T&Co. I'll maybe call a few stores and have different reps do searches for me. Guess I'll be a pain in the rear-end, but for what I'm paying, I'm expecting the stone to dazzle and not fizzle out on me.

Absolutely. They WILL tell you that all their diamonds are fabulous. So you will need to be insistent.

Here's a cheat sheet that will help you narrow it down:

depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!

Also, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.

With that said, here''s a "Cliff''s Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.

GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).


Yssie might be along to update this, if she does listen to her. I keep forgetting to add in her updates to this. But if she doesn't ... you will get a nice diamond if you stay within these specs... just tell the Tiffany person that you want a diamond within these parameters.

 

[hearts-arrows_girl]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

I'm not located in a city with a T&Co, so I'm basically buying this sight unseen... which is why I want to be as sure as reasonably possible before I commit to buying this thing. It will be a hassle to return or exchange after the fact. Thanks for any advice you can offer!!

If you are buying over the phone, than you can go through ANY Tiffany's. The ones in Las Vegas and Beverly Hills seem to have a large stock in house. Try having them FAX you some certs. I've been to many Tiffany's, and the sales people at most that I have been to, don't seem to know much more than color and clarity. You are NOT being a pain if you insist on getting the stone you want. If you get a sales lady that seems bugged by your attention to detail, then change sales ladies. This is a huge and important purchase for you. Keep sifting through their stock until you find your treasure. I have seen alot of great stones at Tiffany's, but I have also seen many middle of the road stones. They all look nice, but, for sure, some are better than others. I like stones that aren't too deep, so that it will have a better diameter and look bigger. (60 - 61.5) Good luck on your search, I can't wait to see what you find.

 

[farmer gal]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

Do you have your heart set on tiffany's or are you open to other suggestions? If your open what's your budget, and what specs are you looking for

 

[cavluv]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

This is the same experience I went through at Tiffany's. Because Tiffany grades all stones "in house," I found that *every* Tiffany report shows "Excellent" for their "Precision of Cut" grade, but this is not equal to GIA's cut grade. So it's good that you're running the numbers yourself. I am sure many Tiffany Excellent grades would not rate Excellent by GIA or AGS standards. If light performance and sparkle is important to you, then you can't rely on the Tiffany lab report "Precision of Cut" rating.

 

[Dag]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

Thanks all for your help and advice. I appreciate it all!

Farmer gal: Yes, after doing a very informal "survey" (well, more like bringing up the topic passively in conversations "Oh, that's a beautiful ring! If you don't mind me asking, where did your husband find it when the right time comes for me to shop around?") of her friends and sis-in-laws, several of them do have rings from Tiffany's. And as my guy friends (even the financially responsible ones) have warned me "good luck... Women will always talk and compare... You're stuck getting the Tiffany's..."

Although I'm 100% positive she'll say "yes" even if I give her a CZ, I do want her to be able to hold her own when inevitably the friends and family ask where it's from.

As a side note though, one of her friends has a large rock from Costco, but it doesn't dazzle... Without saying anything, we were both kinda wondering "where's the dazzle and wow factor?" so she's told me she doesn't care about size, just the quality and prescence.

I am looking for an 1.00-1.10ish F/IF... Yes, I read all about why I shouldn't be buying that and should go for GH/VS1 because I can go bigger or cheaper... But she doesn't want bigger and I'm ok with the one-time rip-off I'm paying T&Co. But if I'm paying a premium, I want an excellent stone... Not a poor performer.

I'll keep calling around. I'm in Canada by the way, so I haven't tried calling a US store since I don't think they ship to Canada, but the T&Co stores here can request them be transferred internally.

 

[distracts]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

The risk you take whenever you buy a ring from Tiffany's or a place like that is that the diamond won't meet your standards. If you want a Tiffany ring, you kind of have to go with what they give you. Same for Cartier, etc. With the amount of rings they sell, they simply cannot sell only diamonds that meet PS standards, or put their diamonds through the sort of vigorous vetting process PSers expect. Which is why most PSers don't buy completed rings from boutique jewelers. Finding an ideal stone at Tiffany is pretty hard, judging from previous posts on here, but doable. It might just take a little longer. I second the suggestion to buy an idealscope.

If you are looking only at F/IF, that will make it harder still - why not a range from E-G, IF-VVS2, and 1-1.3cts. That will give you a larger selection of stones to look at, that still have high specs.

 

[smoothmoose]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

Thanks all for your help and advice. I appreciate it all!

Farmer gal: Yes, after doing a very informal "survey" (well, more like bringing up the topic passively in conversations "Oh, that's a beautiful ring! If you don't mind me asking, where did your husband find it when the right time comes for me to shop around?") of her friends and sis-in-laws, several of them do have rings from Tiffany's. And as my guy friends (even the financially responsible ones) have warned me "good luck... Women will always talk and compare... You're stuck getting the Tiffany's..."

I'll keep calling around. I'm in Canada by the way, so I haven't tried calling a US store since I don't think they ship to Canada, but the T&Co stores here can request them be transferred internally.

My g/f would take a CZ as well, but luckily for me she wouldn't give a sh!t what other girls think or have to say about a brand. She has a nice LV bag that she got as gift that she just tosses around like it's from the Gap and she prefers using her other bags anyway.

For me I still want to get her something nice so I went out to get a nice diamond online that meet's PSers standards and now I am working with a designer on a completely custom setting. I personally believe a quality diamond and custom setting has much more personal value and cachet than a popular brand. That's why I go bespoke and tailor my suits and work with the tailor on design details as well instead buying an Armani, Canelli, or Zegna.

I'm in Canada too, but I assume you are outside of a major city like Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, or Montreal? There are good custom options here in Toronto, and many other great options online as well.

But you know what's best for you and your future fiancée social circle.

 

[ooo~Shiney!]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

No the HCA doesn't.

Tiffany's diamonds aren't cut for ideal light return. It's not how they screen their stones. You can find Tiffany stones that have good numbers, but as you've seen there are some that aren't good at all.

If you want a Tiffany round brilliant diamond here's the best advice I can give you.

Spend 65 bucks on an idealscope. Learn to interpret what it shows you and take it with you. Use it on the diamonds there until you find a stone that performs well. Buy that one.

http://www.ideal-scope.com/cart_zoom_item.asp?Id=53&ShowAdd=Y

I don't mean to threadjack, sorry in advance, Gypsy does the idealscope work on stones that are set ?

 

[cavluv]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

You say:

I am looking for an 1.00-1.10ish F/IF... Yes, I read all about why I shouldn't be buying that and should go for GH/VS1 because I can go bigger or cheaper... But she doesn't want bigger and I'm ok with the one-time rip-off I'm paying T&Co. But if I'm paying a premium, I want an excellent stone... Not a poor performer.

While I am by no means an expert, if you're set on getting an F/IF (for symbolic or other reasons), then you're going to have a very limited set of stones to sort through. Finding an F/IF WITH an excellent cut will probably take some time and hunting. And $$$$.

But if I were you, the last thing I'd want to is pay for F/IF specs and have them not realized to their full potential because the stone isn't cut well. By all means, make sure you go big on cut grade if you're going to invest the $$ in F/IF specs.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

No the HCA doesn't.

Tiffany's diamonds aren't cut for ideal light return. It's not how they screen their stones. You can find Tiffany stones that have good numbers, but as you've seen there are some that aren't good at all.

If you want a Tiffany round brilliant diamond here's the best advice I can give you.

Spend 65 bucks on an idealscope. Learn to interpret what it shows you and take it with you. Use it on the diamonds there until you find a stone that performs well. Buy that one.

http://www.ideal-scope.com/cart_zoom_item.asp?Id=53&ShowAdd=Y

I don't mean to threadjack, sorry in advance, Gypsy does the idealscope work on stones that are set ?[/quote]

Not Gypsy, but yes, the idealscope works on set stones. You can see the arrows and light leakage from the top of the stone. You cannot see the hearts as they are visible only from the bottom side of the stone.

End of threadjack!

 

[MissGotRocks]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

I think if you do your homework and then ask for parameters of stone cut, you can and will find a lovely ring at Tiffany's that is in line with what we consider ideal cut. I think sometimes their focus is on cutting and setting bright stones - not necessarily within hearts and arrows type of ranges. Those stones too can be beautiful in their own right. On the stone you referenced, the biggest thing the HCA doesn't like is the pavilion angle over 41. It really dings those stones. Replace the pavilion angle with 40.9 and see what a difference it makes. If this is the best scenario for you and you are willing to pay for the premium, go for it! I can't wait to see what you select!

 

[Dag]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

Smoothmoose:
I'm 3+ hours away from the closest T&Co. While I can make a full day trip out of it, it's tough to keep it a surprise and explain where I've been all day to my gf.

MissGotRocks:
Thanks for pointing that out! You are right that a slight change in PA makes a huge difference while the other values have smaller individual impact on the HCA score. I've asked them to bring it in and hopefully they can send me pictures. However, I did request that they keep looking to see if there are other options available.

Thanks everyone for your input and thoughts and advice. I'm learning a lot here and hopefully I can pass that on to others in the future as well!

 

[MissGotRocks]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

Smoothmoose:
I'm 3+ hours away from the closest T&Co. While I can make a full day trip out of it, it's tough to keep it a surprise and explain where I've been all day to my gf.

MissGotRocks:
Thanks for pointing that out! You are right that a slight change in PA makes a huge difference while the other values have smaller individual impact on the HCA score. I've asked them to bring it in and hopefully they can send me pictures. However, I did request that they keep looking to see if there are other options available.

Thanks everyone for your input and thoughts and advice. I'm learning a lot here and hopefully I can pass that on to others in the future as well!

That's how we roll here!

 

[Laila619]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

It's that pavilion angle that's affecting the score. Pav angles over 41 get dinged.

Keep looking at certs...Tiffany does have some good diamonds but it'll just take a little more work. Good luck!!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

Dag- another thing to keep in mind is that cut grading is not a precise science- although it might seem that way based on many of the devices and comments made here.

The "cheat sheet" is akin to me telling you that "chicken MUST be eaten fried- we've scientifically proved it tastes better that grilled". I happen to like fried better, but surely others will like it grilled.

Tiffany's is a certainly a large company- with all that entails. Part of that might be the need to be more of an advocate for yourself as you may deal with many different stores and salespeople within a company that size. Basically it's for more difficult to be super consistent in many different stores with different sales people- so taking extra care in selection is a great idea.

But in a larger sense, this discussion may highlight the fact that different eyes see things differently.
There very well may be people that will select a stone that scores higher ( worse) on HCA- or might be identified here as having "leakage" if people are choosing based on visual aspects, instead of choosing based on a test score, or numbers.

A diamond graded EX cut grade by GIA is arguably already pedigreed.
There's a range of appearances in GIA EX cut graded stones- and some will argue that stones that have gotten that grade are deficient.
But in the real world, and the real market, there is not a broad consensus that GIA EX cut graded stones are not consistently well cut. A "super premium" cut may go for more- but I've not heard of cases of GIA EX cut grade stones being discounted based on HCA scores or IS images.

 

[John P]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

With that said, here''s a "Cliff''s Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown. GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).

... Somebody super-cool must have penned those Cliff's Notes.

I'm not wild about the 41.3 / 34.4 with the 57% table. I like the PA to be 41 or less in most combinations, but if it's slightly above 41 (my experience) the diamond can still be quite dazzling if the CA comes down and the table moves closer to 60%. I also like to know lower half% when considering such cases, but I know I can't have everything.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

No way I would pay for the Tiffany premium without getting a stone that would qualify as "ideal cut" and definitely excellent on polish and symmetry. I think you are making a grave error limiting yourself to F IF due to the fact that there may be a much better cut stone out there (in the Tiffany company) that is F VS1 or VVS2, E VS1, etc. I'd far rather have an F VS1 that is ideal cut over one that has a 4.0 HCA score, and I wouldn't buy that stone if they were having a half price sale (unless I could resell it at a profit )!

 

[hearts-arrows_girl]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

No way I would pay for the Tiffany premium without getting a stone that would qualify as "ideal cut" and definitely excellent on polish and symmetry. I think you are making a grave error limiting yourself to F IF due to the fact that there may be a much better cut stone out there (in the Tiffany company) that is F VS1 or VVS2, E VS1, etc. I'd far rather have an F VS1 that is ideal cut over one that has a 4.0 HCA score, and I wouldn't buy that stone if they were having a half price sale (unless I could resell it at a profit )!

I completely agree with DS.

No one will ever see the difference between IF and VS1. Don't base your E-ring purchase on what you will tell people it is, instead of what it looks like. Sometimes you can't have it ALL for whatever reason, and have to compromise somewhere, so make sure you pick Cut, above Color and Clarity in terms of what's available, you mentioned it's not a price thing, that's why I mentioned availability. You have just begun your search, believe me, after a few disappointing options given to you from Tiffany's, DS's suggestion will make a whole lot of sense. Keep an open mind.

 

[Dag]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

Hmmm. Understood. I'll broaden my search parameters as well then. It's such a tough purchase when it's something you hopefully only buy once, yet spend a significant amount of money on. It's even harder in terms of time and research than buying a car, especially if you want to weed out the duds.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

With that said, here''s a "Cliff''s Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown. GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).

... Somebody super-cool must have penned those Cliff's Notes.

I'm not wild about the 41.3 / 34.4 with the 57% table. I like the PA to be 41 or less in most combinations, but if it's slightly above 41 (my experience) the diamond can still be quite dazzling if the CA comes down and the table moves closer to 60%. I also like to know lower half% when considering such cases, but I know I can't have everything.

LOL. I definitely didn't pen them. It's time they were adjusted, I'm seeing. Feel free to start a post inquiring about Cliff's Notes input from people like Yssie so I can have an updated version to use.

 

[slg47]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

I am looking for an 1.00-1.10ish F/IF... Yes, I read all about why I shouldn't be buying that and should go for GH/VS1 because I can go bigger or cheaper... But she doesn't want bigger and I'm ok with the one-time rip-off I'm paying T&Co. But if I'm paying a premium, I want an excellent stone... Not a poor performer.

just FYI...the 'sparkle' has nothing to do with it being F/IF and everything to do with the cut.

 

[John P]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

LOL. I definitely didn't pen them. It's time they were adjusted, I'm seeing. Feel free to start a post inquiring about Cliff's Notes input from people like Yssie so I can have an updated version to use.

Hehe. Actually I wrote the "Cliff's" part Gypsy I've seen it quoted to good effect for a long time.

Here it is in-context: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/help-me-pick-a-diamond.156169/#post-2844165#p2844165

When I wrote the CNs they followed measurement advice others had arrived-at for near-Tolk makes (tables circa 55-56%). For the record, as table size moves >59% my formula for PA/CA changes. Not applicable in this thread - but I do see 60-60 makes discussed on PS so I thought I'd mention it.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Looking for help... Tiffany diamond scoring 4.0 on HCA..

LOL. I definitely didn't pen them. It's time they were adjusted, I'm seeing. Feel free to start a post inquiring about Cliff's Notes input from people like Yssie so I can have an updated version to use.

Hehe. Actually I wrote the "Cliff's" part Gypsy I've seen it quoted to good effect for a long time.

Here it is in-context: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/help-me-pick-a-diamond.156169/#post-2844165#p2844165

When I wrote the CNs they followed measurement advice others had arrived-at for near-Tolk makes (tables circa 55-56%). For the record, as table size moves >59% my formula for PA/CA changes. Not applicable in this thread - but I do see 60-60 makes discussed on PS so I thought I'd mention it.

I know. I've known it's yours every time I posted it. I usually actually credit you with it (if you look up Gypsy Cliff's Notes you'll see the other times I"ve reposted it with credit to you), but this time I was in a hurry. My posting this week has been rushed as I've been using it as a much needed break from reality. It's been a bad week. I have a grandmother on life support (that we might be pulling tomorrow) and a mother with possible lung cancer, and a husband with a weird and bad foot infection that can spread systemically if he doesn't take care of it (and he's not been doing so) and a broken ankle of my own. You can't make this stuff up.