looking for a VERY nice .70-74, but getting confused

[2Bmarried]

Hello all,

I''ve been looking around locally for a loose round (Ideal) diamond quite a bit recently as well as trying to educate myself online. I''m getting confused about a few things. Primarily, after looking at AGS and GIA grading reports at stores, I don''t understand how AGS grades a diamond "ideal", utilizing key factors while GIA grades ideal (from my understanding) based on cut proportions / percentages.

I looked at (what I thought was) a very nice .73, F, SI2 & Ideal as graded by AGS as their triple ideal with inert fluorescence. (There is no laser inscription on this diamond.) However, I could notice a few tiny inclusions with my own eyesight as well as many under the 10x binocular microscope. I doubt my girlfriend would ever notice it, but she MIGHT! The price on this was $2,804.

I decided to also check out (what I was told to be) a very nice .71, D, VS2 & Ideal as graded by GIA. Per GIA, the polish is rated excellent, while the symmetry is rated very good. Fluorescence is none and there are no comments. (This diamond has a laser inscription, but there is no extended certification paper that would have the plotting like the AGS report has). There were two small inclusions off the table and the stone looks very clean as described. The price on this was $3,680. How might this grade on an AGS report??

Price is not really the issue here, so much as the grading variations between these two companies.

Which is truly more respected and sought after as a certification?
Should I be concerned about the variations between the AGS and GIA grading?
If I could get a diamond just like the 2nd I mentioned, but certified as Ideal by AGS, would it most likely be better and TRULY IDEAL, or is the term "Ideal" subjective?

I''m just a bit confused here and am looking for any help before I make a big decision. Thank you very much for your time!!!!

Steve

 

[Hest88]

Hm. Well, a quick answer would be that inclusions and cut quality are mutually exclusive. It doesn't surprise me that someone with good eyesight would see SI2 inclusions if he knew where they are. However, that doesn't mean that the stone isn't cut to maximize brilliance and fire. Does that make sense? It's like if you take a piece of flawed marble and create the most incredible piece of sculpture from it, the inherent flaw in the marble doesn't mean that the sculpture isn't any less perfect. The GIA stone is graded as a VS2--so of course it has fewer inclusions.

 

[valeria101]

GIA does not "greade" diamonds and certainly does not use the term "Ideal" anywhere... What are you talking about?

AGS grades cut quality, GIA does not (except for polish and symmetry parameters, which AGS addresses too).

And yes, SI2 can be eye clean, or not.

The term "Ideal" is a commercial denomination with no backing. There is no authority or consensus behind the seller's choice to call a certain diamond "Ideal" (Ideally sold, that is). While I have no reason to doubt the integrity of whoever seller you have in mind, I should note that you, the buyer, should ultimately decide what is an "Ideal" diamond for you. If you are presented with an "ideal" diamond, you should also be presented with an explanation of what makes it ideal. There is no standard under this name.

What parameters the seller should be talking about? Mostly about cut, something Pricescope is quite good at explaining (seen the "tutorial"?). Not that you should take this lesson blindfolded, but it does make a quick, useful reading. There are a few versions of this philosophy on what makes a diamond "ideal", but they are rather close... as you may discover in 30min or so.

 

[2Bmarried]

The salesperson at the store (it is a reputable store) told me that the GIA "Ideal" label (though not actually anywhere on their certificate since they do not grade cut) was based on the cut proportions of the diamond, but truly nothing more.

I also noticed that bluenile sells diamonds as "Ideal" with a GIA certification.

If I had two diamonds with the same color (D), clarity (VS2) and carat weight (.71), which certification would be more valuable - GIA with excellent polish, very good symmetry & no fluoresence and within (maybe unfounded) "Ideal" proportions, or an AGS Ideal 0 0 0 cut diamond with inert fluorescence?

How can I be guaranteed of a truly good cut with a GIA certification????

Thanks!

 

[pqcollectibles]

In order for a diamond to be a GIA Ideal cut, it has to have Excellent polish and Excellent Symmetry. Very Good symmetry would not qualify as Ideal. Sometimes you will see a GIA graded diamond that will also have an AGS Ideal or AGS000 label added to the GIA Cert. That means the diamond is a GIA Ex/Ex and meets AGS standards for Ideal Polish, Ideal Proportions, and Ideal Symmetry.

Both Labs, AGS and GIA, are very reputable with strict standards. Some people would say AGS and some would say GIA.

In your particular case, the GIA report was a Dossier and not a complete report. A Dossier costs less than a traditional "full" report.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 1/24/2004 1:36:08 PM 2Bmarried wrote:





The salesperson at the store (it is a reputable store) told me that the GIA 'Ideal' label (though not actually anywhere on their certificate since they do not grade cut) was based on the cut proportions of the diamond, but truly nothing more.

I also noticed that bluenile sells diamonds as 'Ideal' with a GIA certification.

If I had two diamonds with the same color (D), clarity (VS2) and carat weight (.71), which certification would be more valuable - GIA with excellent polish, very good symmetry & no fluoresence and within (maybe unfounded) 'Ideal' proportions, or an AGS Ideal 0 0 0 cut diamond with inert fluorescence?

How can I be guaranteed of a truly good cut with a GIA certification????

Thanks!
----------------

GIA doesn't put cut proportion information on the grading reports, so whoever's telling you they grade proportions (other than symmetry/polish) is misguided and incorrect.

How can you be guaranteed a truly good cut with a GIA grading report? Easy....take it to an independent appraiser - preferably unset, and have them examine it/run a Sarin on it. Problem solved.

 

[Griffin]

The definition of an "Ideal" stone is any stone the salesman has in his hand while speaking to a potential customer.
The definition of "Non-Ideal" stones are any stones sold by his competitors.

Less confusing now?

 

[valeria101]

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On 1/24/2004 11:05:22 PM pqcollectibles wrote:


In order for a diamond to be a GIA Ideal cut, it has to have Excellent polish and Excellent Symmetry. [...] Sometimes you will see a GIA graded diamond that will also have an AGS Ideal or AGS000 label added to the GIA Cert. That means the diamond is a GIA Ex/Ex and meets AGS standards for Ideal Polish, Ideal Proportions, and Ideal Symmetry.
----------------

What is a GIA "ideal"? I know they were somewhere down the road of developing their own cut grades, but not quite there yet...Did GIA start labeling anything "ideal" ?

An a GIA graded stone with an AGS label on the cert would be a stone that did the trip to BOTH labs, right?. I cant imagine where the label would be added unless it is an inscription on the girdle or something.

 

[2Bmarried]

After reading all these replies (and all the good information they contain - thanks!), I have read up on the tutorial, HCA analysis - where I actually plugged in the %s and angles of the first stone I looked at, checked out ideal-scope.com & ordered a basic tool kit with loupe, tweezers, CZ comparison stone, basic ideal scope, and external light. I plan on taking them into the store to visually check on the cut and symmetry based on what I've read here and read and seen at the ideal-scope website, among others.

Thanks so much!

 

[pqcollectibles]

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On 1/25/2004 9:47:42 AM valeria101 wrote:

----------------
On 1/24/2004 11:05:22 PM pqcollectibles wrote:


In order for a diamond to be a GIA Ideal cut, it has to have Excellent polish and Excellent Symmetry. [...] Sometimes you will see a GIA graded diamond that will also have an AGS Ideal or AGS000 label added to the GIA Cert. That means the diamond is a GIA Ex/Ex and meets AGS standards for Ideal Polish, Ideal Proportions, and Ideal Symmetry.
----------------

What is a GIA 'ideal'? I know they were somewhere down the road of developing their own cut grades, but not quite there yet...Did GIA start labeling anything 'ideal' ?

An a GIA graded stone with an AGS label on the cert would be a stone that did the trip to BOTH labs, right?. I cant imagine where the label would be added unless it is an inscription on the girdle or something. ----------------

You are right, Val. I threw in an extra word where I shouldn't have. GIA does not currently grade cut. Mia Culpa!!

As to your second Q,.... I don't know. I've seen the GIA Certs on-line and in person with the extra label added. The label usually says AGS000 and gives all the specs with angles. Maybe one of the pros will chime in on that issue.

 

[phoenixgirl]

You need to ask for a sarin analysis of the stone. Otherwise, you can't be guaranteed of a truly good cut. Without the crown and pavilion angles, you have no idea how a stone will perform. You can have two diamonds with the same depth and table percentages but that will be entirely different when it comes to "sparkliness."

The more information, the better:
0.70 F VS2 H&A *sparkler*

To a certain degree, the term "ideal" is subjective. However, the light return of a stone can be measured. While some stones outside of what is considered ideal will be surprisingly good performers, (example: AGS 10 stone) an AGS cut grade of 0 is about the best guarantee that you're going to get of a good performer aside from having additional tests done.

 

[2Bmarried]

Sounds like one of the easiest things for someone in my position to do would be to gear towards AGS certified rather than other certs. Sounds like the Sarin analysis is not so much included in the AGS report, but the AGS report states the same information that the Sarin analysis would (?). Sounds to me like I should just check out the AGS diamonds instead of any others, since I don't have time or money to send it to a separate appraiser, nor do I have any equipment to verify cut, etc., other than what I have already mentioned that I ordered.

 

[valeria101]

Once AGS certifies a good cut, you are surely likely to pay extra for the stone, just as you would for a known H&A, if not more. The AGS cert averages out some of the numbers a Sarin report produces, but does not reflect a direct analysis of the stone (something that IdealScope images or other tools, such as the Briliance Scope and Isee2 do). If you are after a premium cut (and the premium demanded for them) these are some details that would be relevant to consider. I am not sure that an AGS report provides the cheapest, fastest way to evaluate cut... If this purchase has not already taken more than enough labour, you may want to look into this "competitiveness" matter.

 

[2Bmarried]

Well, I might be reverting back here. I'm still going to wait for my products to arrive to utilize them in my hunt, but I ran the HCA on the diamond that still somehow seems to be to my liking......AGS Ideal 0, Color F, Clarity SI2, .733 cts., measurements are 5.84 - 5.87 x 3.54 mm, fluorescence: inert.

I got a copy of the AGS cert & ran the numbers through HCA.

Depth: 60.5 %
Table: 56 %
Crown Angle: 34.4
Pavilion Angle: 40.7
Culet %: 0

Light return, fire & scintillation come back as excellent, while the spread or diameter for weight rates very good. The total visual performance is 0.8 - Excellent - within TIC range.

I must say that it looks very nice to me, but I'm still a bit worried about the clarity. I am EXTREMELY new to this, but the diamond (under 10x) looks like a bomb blew up inside. A stark comparison to a VS2 I checked out last week under the 10x, as would be expected!!! But the majority of the inclusions are across the table. And I can see, with my naked eye, a few tiny inclusions midway up the pavilion when viewed from the side, though I now know where to look to find them, of course.

I just wonder what people's opinions are on this one as well as their opinions on the visibility of an inclusion, the rating and performance of this diamond when being sold for $2,804. Any other input is, as always, beneficial to me and greatly appreciated. Thanks! (Maybe I'm just blowing the inclusions out of proportion - she may never even see them....but I KNOW THEY'RE there, and it just bugs me!!)

 

[Patty]

I think that if the inclusions bug you now, they will always bug you. You need to decide if the money you are saving is worth it to buy an SI2 stone. I'm not trying to talk you out of it...I just bought an I1 diamond, but only you know what you can live with and it sounds like these inclusions really bother you.

 

[valeria101]

There is nothing wrong with these lower clarity grades (cut and color are way up there for your stone, and that surely counts), but you may want to leave that loupe at home and hunt down a stone that looks clean to you. This is what the "eye clean" word of wisedom is all about. I would bet on SI1 by now, but most would agree that there are eye clean SI2s out there ready to surface after a bit of hunting... It just hapens that your stone is not one of those. Patty's post make alot of sense too: it is for you to decide. However, once cut and color have been set so high, clarity is the only thing left for one to worry about

Maybe you should not... just MY 'maybe'

 

[roshita]

First, we should establish a definition for "ideal". AGS grades cut by assessing the crown angle, the pavillion depth, the table, the girdle thickness and the culet size, along with the polish and symmetry characteristics. Most of the trade considers an AGS 0 cut grade for proportions the lowest threshold for an "ideal" cut. GIA does not grade cut. If a stone with a GIA GTL report is being represented as an "ideal" cut, then the seller should be able to substantiate this with a Sarin or OGI report.

An AGS report supplies much more information on the proportions of the diamond. It also provides a cut grade based on the AGS cut grading scale that is used by the trade. And on the dealer level, a diamond with an AGS report will tend to be more expensive than a similar diamond with a GIA report and a Sarin/Ogi report.

In my opinion, AGS tends to be stricter in grading color and clarity (especially over the past two or three years). However, AGS and GIA really are the two most respected labs in the industry.

A 3/4 ct Round Brilliant diamond with an AGS report, stating D color and VS2 clarity, and "0" for proportions, polish and symmetry, would be beautiful, and ideal. Pehaps you could find a lower price on a similar GIA with a Sarin/Ogi report for "ideal" substantiation. If the seller cannot provide the Sarin/Ogi report you may want to shop elsewhere.

 

[aljdewey]

Russell.....it looks like you missed the post above where he mentioned that he is now considering an AGS stone and lists all the appropriate information.

 

[2Bmarried]

Well, I'm swinging heavily in favor of the AGS certifications in part due to their detail of proportion as well as a lack of any Sarin or similar report on the GIA stones. I've received the ideal-scope and toolkit and will use it tomorrow to check out the aforementioned stones as well as one more:

AGS cert. # AGS0003631403 (Graded 11/22/2002)
Size = 5.79 - 5.82 x 3.60mm
Depth %: 62.1
Table %: 54
Crown angle: 34.1
Pavilion angle: 40.9
Culet: pointed
Girdle: 0.7 - 1.2 % (IS THIS TOO THIN TO BE SAFE???)
Price: $3,575

.735 cts., F Color, VS1 Clarity and with a rating of 1.4 (Excellent) by the HCA analysis. I'll be checking it out tomorrow & will hopefully be able to tell distinct differences between the diamonds with the ideal-scope and excellent grade 6mm CZ that I'll be using for the comparisons. Wish me luck!

None of the AGS diamonds I have looked at have had the AGS # laser inscribed on the girdle. Anybody know how long it really takes for them to do it from the time it is sent from the jeweler to the time it is returned? I've been told (by the jewelry store) it's about 1-2 weeks as well as approximately $100-$200. Is this about the average? I'm just worried since I plan to propose on February 18th & obviously need it back in time. Thanks again!