Living Without "Made In China"

[ladypirate]

Is anyone else doing this?

We really try not to buy anything made in China, especially since the whole "lead paint" scare a few months ago. Before that we would make an effort, but if it didn''t say where it was from, we wouldn''t do too much research. Now that we''ve really started making a conscious effort to find out where the things we buy come from, it is SHOCKING how hard it is to find things made elsewhere. Sometimes it''s surprising how hard it is to even find out where things are made at all.

If anyone else does this, do you have any tips on companies that don''t outsource? We''ve found that even the big US names (like All Clad) still outsource some of their items while keeping the prices really high because of the brand name.

I heard about that book "A Year Without ''Made In China''" on NPR, but haven''t read it yet. It certainly sounds interesting, and from what we''ve found I''m impressed that they managed to do it.

Anyhow, just throwing this out there to see if anyone else had an interest in it.

 

[Independent Gal]

I'm going to partly play

advocate here.

I'd have pretty mixed feelings about that. China is still a developing country and there are hundreds of millions of people without adequate healthcare or who can no longer afford to send their kids to school. I guess I'd feel pretty conflicted about trying to deny the country jobs and growth.

Boycotts are always a double edged sword.

Plus, this is just a guess, but I wonder whether there aren't quite a few product recalls with American products, that just don't get as widely publicized because Americans are becoming hysterical that China is going to be King of the Castle sooner or later.

Just to stimulate some discussion....

 

[ladypirate]

Our original reason for doing it (somewhat bred into us--we both have hippie parents) was not because of safety issues but because we don''t want to support products that are being made without concern for human rights or paying people a living wage. I have nothing against China as a country (I have several friends that live there, actually), but I can''t support the cheap labor and horrible working conditions that exist in the factories.

Granted, the lead paint thing certainly did raise some good points about production standards and whatnot.

It just seems that people want to pay the least amount possible for things, regardless of the conditions they were made in. I''d rather pay a little bit more and be assured that the people making them were at least paid a living wage.

 

[Independent Gal]

So, you''re presumably also boycotting goods made in every other poor country without north-west style labor laws? Again, I''m partly playing

advocate, but how do you expect the people in these countries to become less impoverished if there are no jobs for them? Should people really be kept poor for the sake of our consciences?

People have to reach a certain level of security before they start to organize for workers'' rights. That never happens FIRST. In other words, you never have completely impoverished people pushing through labor laws and THEN economic development. It''s always a consequence of increasing wealth and security (meaning, LOTS of jobs).

So, what do you propose these people do? How should they feed their children and afford to send them to school?

I totally get boycotts. We don''t want ''dirty hands''. And leaving people to suffer means it''s not OUR fault. Whereas if we do something to support their economy, we are complicit in a different kind of suffering. So although their suffering is worse by just leaving people to starve (otherwise, they wouldn''t take the jobs in the first place) at least we had nothing to do with making them suffer worse.

Two sides and no easy answer to this one.

 

[Maisie]

I know its not really related but my husband lost his last job because his employer decided it would be cheaper to outsource the sales and service side of the company to India. We were really upset because G had been doing really well at that company, had been taking exams and trying to gain more knowledge of all other departments with a view to trying for the management training scheme.

I used to hate calling my bank because the call centre was in India and they could never work out what I was talking about. Even though they could speak adequate english, it never seemed to be enough to hold a conversation about my bank account. I think they have started using UK call centres now, the last few times I called it was a scottish person who answered.

I am all for supporting developing countries. It just irks me when they close businesses here because the labour is cheaper there.

 

[SarahLovesJS]

I am erasing what I said because I reaaaally don't want to argue with anyone.

Anyway, I watched this documentary and thought it was pretty good. It's on mardi gras beads and China. I am pretty sure this is the same one anyway http://www.mardigrasmadeinchina.com/splash.html. I study International Relations and Asian Studies in college so any time I see something about China I get all tense for lack of a better word.

 

[Independent Gal]

ETA: OK I'll cut out most of my response then, Sarah! It wasn't hostile or anything. I just like seeing all the different points of view on these issues.

I'll just point out that China is very far from a rich country. Estimates of GDP per capita there range $5500-8000. That means that the amount of wealth produced there in a year were divided equally, everyone would get... about $500 a month. And of course, it's not divided equally, which means that most people are living on WAY less than that. Numbers wise, it's in the bottom half, the poorest half of countries.

Not so rich.

And re selling debt, yeah. China so has the US by the you-know-whats. oops! Nice work, free market geniuses!

 

[SarahLovesJS]

I was probably incorrect in saying it is a rich country, it is becoming a rich country would probably be better. If the rates continue, by 2015 China will have about the same and then soon after probably surpass the US in GDP. India will follow. However, this is occasionally questioned and we all said the same thing about Japan in the 1980s and it didn't happen. Japan burst its own bubble. So yeah, MOST Chinese people are poor, but the rich ones are dragging it steadily past the US as a major world power.

ETA: One of the major issues with the 2015 thing is..China has a tendency to fudge its numbers pretty bad. So we don't actually 100% know what is going on. Silly China..

ETA...again: Sorry for thread-jacking!! The lead paint thing bothers me, also.

I don't blame the workers, I blame the greedy factory owners and greedy American factories/companies.

 

[surfgirl]

It's an interesting dilemma that you present. And I assume that you're not only wanting to do without Chinese products, but also products from other countries that don't uphold human rights, etc.? That list of countries would be a lonnnng one, and probably could also include the US at this point in time! You might be facing an Amish-like existence if you really adhered to that policy...

When I was a Peace Corps volunteer, and first arrived in my country of service, Botswana - just next door to South Africa - I made a statement during training that I would NEVER buy anything made in South Africa (this was two years before Mandela was released). My trainers laughed and said, "well, if you plan on not wiping your butt with your hand for two years, you'll be buying South African because all the toilet paper comes from there." Same with the toothpaste, matches, etc. You get the picture. I realized that there is indeed two sides to the embargo stance - one is that you're sticking it to the offending country/political system, the other is that you're also sticking it to the innocent person trying to barely just get by in life. Unfortunately, it's not an easy situation to untangle because while most of the rich in China are getting rich by abusing workers rights, etc. of their own countrymen, those same countrymen would have even less than they do now, if there was no market for the products they're making. Even at slave wages.

I think it's better to find products you want to buy here - like Nike shoes - and boycott that International Company - that way you force people at a higher level to actually initiate change that would allow you to purchase those Nike shoes. Child labor and worker abuse is still common throughout the developing world, no doubt about that, but at least companies like Nike have been forced to look at the people THEY do business with and ensure that they have fair wages/treatment/etc. for the laborers doing all the work for that company's products. I think that's a better way to go than just saying "no" to anything "Made in China". Look at what you really want to use/buy, and see what's being made in developing countries, then look into the conditions of labor in those countries and make your feelings known to that intl company. I think there's a fine balance between being "all or nothing" (refusing to buy things from a specific country), and trying to initiate the change you would like to see, which often comes from a balance of working within the system (like putting pressure on the Nike's of the world to police their labor safety and standards globally) and boycotting a country/product.

Does that make any sense?

 

[sumbride]

It would be tough. Do you know that most of the steel used in this country now comes from China? My father buys steel for his factory through a distributor, and he just doesn''t have many options. He visited China 2 years ago on a tour of foundries courtesy of that distributor. He brought back pictures of workers pouring molten steel into molds while wearing thong flip flops and essentially a big diaper... nothing else... while smoking a cigarette. I was horrified. He said "Thing is, if he loses a foot, there are a million other guys who will take the job." This is why the US can''t compete in the steel industry. And are his products labeled "Made in China"? No. Because they aren''t. But parts of them ARE. So you''ll need to look for "Made in the US of domestic materials" or something like that to really fulfill the commitment. And from what I hear, that''s almost impossible.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

My husband is a hard core "made in America" guy, not because of dislike of any other country, but rather because he feels as though a country ought to support its workers. I agree. I don't take it to the same degree that he does, though.

He goes to great lengths to purchase items made in America; if he cannot find a procduct completely made in America, he at least finds products assembled in America, so that he knows some Americans have a job as a part of the product being produced.

Last summer, he spent a few weeks calling stores finding the shoes that he wanted, made in America. It was funny to begin with, but I also really like to see how firmly he stands on the issue when it comes down to the actions involved in supporting it.

When we went shopping for our headboard, it was a LONG search because he wanted one made in America. The same is true with our current search for additional furniture.

He only buys cotton products made in America, as that used to be a HUGE industry in the south. It used to annoy me, but for some reason, I appreciate it now (especially since so many people are being laid off and losing jobs because of outsourcing).

 

[erica k]

I like to buy produce and fish from local farms and markets, not organic this and thats flown in from far away, which means my winter diet is pretty limited here in New England. I try to buy locally made furniture (bookshelves, desks, etc), but it certainly isn''t easy. But, I can''t help my love for Japanese imports, especially packaged snacks...

This month I decided to see how long I can last buying only handmade or used clothing and shoes (etsy is a great source), just because I thought it would help me restrain my clothing purchases.

I''m not a huge fan of how ''made in china'' has become a whipping boy for all that ails the American economy. When the general population cares more for the bottom line and the cheapest deal, there will be oversights (quality, safety, labor). There are clearly benefits along with drawbacks for the developing country, as much as there are benefits and drawbacks for Americans.

I''m a huge fan of recycling, which means thrifting clothing, furniture, and books, mending things that are broken, and spending money on quality items made by people that I have a personal relationship with (via blogosphere or real life).

That said, I don''t feel ''that'' bad about buying something that was made in China or anywhere else in the world. Does the fact that many items are manufactured by non-Italian immigrants relocated from other countries in order to have a ''made in Italy'' label change one''s mind about buying that purse or pair of shoes? There are many designers who develop close and fair relationships with manufacturers in China and elsewhere. Of course, the larger the scale of production and distribution, the more room there is for fraud and poor labor practices.

The internet is a great source for getting to know companies that work more closely with their manufacturers to ensure better quality and safety (at a higher price). I try to keep things on a local, small-scale level, but of course it isn''t always possible for me.

 

[HollyS]

No "Made in China" for you? I wish you Good Luck with that; it seems everything is made overseas in Southeast Asia somewhere.

I don''t know that we can change things from the consumer end of the spectrum; we''ve got to get some tougher trade tactics and stop screwing over the American worker. And, that being said, sometimes the only thing keeping people just above abject poverty in those countries is the factory work for American companies. It''s a crappy situation all around.

 

[ladypirate]

Holly, you hit the nail on the head. It''s so frustrating feeling helpless, no matter what you do. And there are some products that are nearly impossible to find not made in China. Our crockpot died on us last week, and we found none that were made in the US.

 

[surfgirl]

I think you''re missing a big point in why jobs/manfacturing go overseas in the first place. It''s partially about money, but it''s also about quality.

For example, people here in the US always seem to want a bargain. So if a manufacturer has to pay top US wages to American workers who dont always do the best job and expect a lot more in the way of benefits, etc., but the consumer wont pay the price in order to make that product here in the US, then it''s no wonder that American companies are going overseas.

Case in point, I loathe Nike and Reebok for their overseas workers conditions, so many years back, I decided to only buy running shoes made in the USA. You know what, I pay top dollar for those shoes because they''re made here and it costs a lot more no doubt, but I''m willing to pay the extra for those shoes. But I''d wager to guess that the majority of America isn''t going to pay top dollar for something they can get at WalMart for a "bargain", right?

As for the issue of jobs being stolen from American workers, I can only speak from local experience...We live in a software town, and Mr. Surfgirl is a senior level software engineer. Any time one of these "they''ve stolen American engineers jobs!" stories airs, without fail, Mr. Surf knows at least some of those out of work engineers who are complaining that they''re out of work because of Asian workers. The fact is, usually, those guys are lazy, not good at their jobs, and complainers who do the bare minimum. Then they wonder why they got fired (because they were lousy at their job), and the company preferred to hire a highly skilled foreign worker with mad skills, a very high work ethic, and someone who gets the job done without complaining about every little thing and who takes pride in their work. If I was that employer, I''d choose the foreign worker too.

I''m sorry, but I''ve seen this scenario enough around my town to know that it''s not as black and white as saying "foreigners are stealing American jobs". It''s much more complex than that. Look at the labor industry in gardening and horticulture in California. Why is it chock a block with Mexican workers? Because most Americans feel that the work is beneath them. Show me a teenager these days who''s willing to sweat his butt off on the weekends doing lawn/garden work or picking produce during the summer vacation? I dont see any. They want their iPhones and iPods and laptops, but where''s the work ethic that EARNS you all that nice stuff? I think until Americans are willing to do an honest days work and not be so prima dona about it, jobs will continue to go to those who ARE willing to do the work, without complaint, and in a high quality manner.

 

[swingirl]

If you really want to help with the "green" movement you shouldn't buy anything imported. The fuel used and pollution created from shipping is my big reason for trying not to. There is no pollution control and very little if any regulation on shipping vessels. So many US companies have chosen to go overseas for less regulations and cheaper prices. The US public seems to love the idea of building factories and polluting foreign countries and then polluting some more by shipping it across the world all for a cheap price.

If you still want to buy imported goods choosing to do business with countries that have horrible human rights policies is another consideration. There are many emerging countries with children that need schools and need health care who could have their suffering relieved from jobs in their county. I prefer to encourage trade with countries who have fair practices, don't use forbidden additives, leave lead out and follow their contracts.

And although you can't find everything made in the USA, you can start checking labels and make choices when you can. Due to so many requests the Container Store has started selling things not made in China.

 

[DivaDiamond007]

Date: 3/20/2008 8:08:16 PM
Author: surfgirl
I think you''re missing a big point in why jobs/manfacturing go overseas in the first place. It''s partially about money, but it''s also about quality.

For example, people here in the US always seem to want a bargain. So if a manufacturer has to pay top US wages to American workers who dont always do the best job and expect a lot more in the way of benefits, etc., but the consumer wont pay the price in order to make that product here in the US, then it''s no wonder that American companies are going overseas.

Case in point, I loathe Nike and Reebok for their overseas workers conditions, so many years back, I decided to only buy running shoes made in the USA. You know what, I pay top dollar for those shoes because they''re made here and it costs a lot more no doubt, but I''m willing to pay the extra for those shoes. But I''d wager to guess that the majority of America isn''t going to pay top dollar for something they can get at WalMart for a ''bargain'', right?

As for the issue of jobs being stolen from American workers, I can only speak from local experience...We live in a software town, and Mr. Surfgirl is a senior level software engineer. Any time one of these ''they''ve stolen American engineers jobs!'' stories airs, without fail, Mr. Surf knows at least some of those out of work engineers who are complaining that they''re out of work because of Asian workers. The fact is, usually, those guys are lazy, not good at their jobs, and complainers who do the bare minimum. Then they wonder why they got fired (because they were lousy at their job), and the company preferred to hire a highly skilled foreign worker with mad skills, a very high work ethic, and someone who gets the job done without complaining about every little thing and who takes pride in their work. If I was that employer, I''d choose the foreign worker too.

I''m sorry, but I''ve seen this scenario enough around my town to know that it''s not as black and white as saying ''foreigners are stealing American jobs''. It''s much more complex than that. Look at the labor industry in gardening and horticulture in California. Why is it chock a block with Mexican workers? Because most Americans feel that the work is beneath them. Show me a teenager these days who''s willing to sweat his butt off on the weekends doing lawn/garden work or picking produce during the summer vacation? I dont see any. They want their iPhones and iPods and laptops, but where''s the work ethic that EARNS you all that nice stuff? I think until Americans are willing to do an honest days work and not be so prima dona about it, jobs will continue to go to those who ARE willing to do the work, without complaint, and in a high quality manner.

I totally agree with these statements. Why should a company pay an American worker $20.00 an hour + benefits to build a "widget" when they can pay a foriegn worker much less than that and no benefits to boot? Seems like simple math to me. It all comes down to the bottom line. Companies are saving money by doing this. That''s not to say it''s okay to have your workers working in poor conditions - but if the workers know no other way then why does it matter? I''m not saying that workers should be treated poorly or be forced to work in bad conditions, but if they''re willing to do it then the management has no incentive to make any changes.

The Mexican worker comment hit home with me in a huge way. My DH had a job for a long time with a company that hired Mexican immigrant wokers every summer to help with the "grunt work". Why? Because they couldn''t find any Americans that wanted to do the work (manual labor, outside) for $8.00 per hour. Every single time they hired a guy in to do the work he''d show up for about a week and then either ask for a huge raise + benefits or just quit showing up. The Mexicans don''t do that. They come in everyday, do the work, don''t complain and don''t get any benefits. They get "sent back" at the end of the season and don''t come back till spring of the next year. Even the teens that came in for the jobs complained about the wages and the nature of the work - nevermind that it was steady summer work that could easily put gas in the car and money in the bank for ipods, computers and other goodies kids are into these days. There is, of course, two sides to this story. The Mexicans that are employed at this particular company have other issues. Drug use on the job and off, they routinely steal equipment and basically squat illegally at a local apartment complex while they are here. They also speak very little English so getting through to them is next to impossible and they will become violent if you confront them about any work-related issues. Tread carefully, in other words.

My DH and I don''t really pay too much attention to where things are made. I love Longaberger pottery and it was made in the U.S. until recently. Now there''s a sticker on the bottom of each piece that says "Made Exclusively for Longaberger in China". I still buy their products, but I have noticed a decline in the quality of the pieces. The American made stuff looks better and seems to hold up better than the Chinese stuff. For example, DH had broken a plate and two glasses that were made in China and none of the American made stuff has nary a scratch - even with the same everyday "abuse" that the Chinese dishes get. Maybe it''s a fluke but I think the quality of the products dropped once it was outsourced to China.

 

[sunnyd]

Thing is, I don''t think you can stop companies from importing. This country is all about money money money. We want the best stuff for the lowest price. We also want the most amount of money for the least amount of effort. The US cannot compete with foreign markets in terms of price, because Americans don''t want to pay for the higher costs of labor and materials. We can''t blame foreign countries for what''s happening, when it''s Americans themselves who are creating the "problem".

On a lighter note, I personally like trade...because I work for a logistics company.

If anyone''s really interested in trade, Pete Mento is the smartest person I know regarding Customs and trade and international ''stuff''. He''s got books out, very fascinating stuff.

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 3/21/2008 12:31:11 PM
Author: sunnyd
This country is all about money money money. We want the best stuff for the lowest price. We also want the most amount of money for the least amount of effort. The US cannot compete with foreign markets in terms of price, because Americans don''t want to pay for the higher costs of labor and materials. We can''t blame foreign countries for what''s happening, when it''s Americans themselves who are creating the ''problem''.

Exactly. You said that way better than I did, thanks!

 

[Independent Gal]

Date: 3/21/2008 10:20:12 AM
Author: DivaDiamond007

There is, of course, two sides to this story. The Mexicans that are employed at this particular company have other issues. Drug use on the job and off, they routinely steal equipment and basically squat illegally at a local apartment complex while they are here. They also speak very little English so getting through to them is next to impossible and they will become violent if you confront them about any work-related issues. Tread carefully, in other words.

Wow. That's a lot of pretty negative stereotyping.

 

[DivaDiamond007]

Date: 3/21/2008 10:40:55 PM
Author: Independent Gal

Date: 3/21/2008 10:20:12 AM
Author: DivaDiamond007

There is, of course, two sides to this story. The Mexicans that are employed at this particular company have other issues. Drug use on the job and off, they routinely steal equipment and basically squat illegally at a local apartment complex while they are here. They also speak very little English so getting through to them is next to impossible and they will become violent if you confront them about any work-related issues. Tread carefully, in other words.

Wow. That''s a lot of pretty negative stereotyping.

It''s not sterotyping when it''s really happening. It''s probably different at other companies but that''s how it is at this particular place. I always thought my husband was embellishing when he told me stories about work until I saw it with my own eyes. Two years ago my hubby had to help clean out the apartment the Mexicans were staying in after they left and they found stolen gasoline (for their illegal car), machine parts, lawn equipment, American''s personal belongings and a variety of drug paraphenelia (sp). Over the years my husband worked there (9 years total) there were plenty of physical confrontations between the Mexican workers and American workers - mostly over who should be doing what - totally unacceptable behavior in my opinion (on both parts).

Part of the problem is the management - they could easily send them back for "new" workers and (hopefully) have better luck but they choose not to. The Mexicans know what they can get away with and they push the line further and further every year. Honestly, it''s part of the reason why my husband took a better opportunity in an unrelated field.

 

[surfgirl]

Diva, I just want to point out that while I'm sure there are people such as you describe, there are also plenty of folks from that country who are hard, honest workers and I see them all the time. I could also say that the sort of people you describe are also plentiful here in the US and unlike your example, they are actually US citizens...so it goes both ways, it's not only one "group" that has bad seeds. We have plenty of "Americans" like that in our own country. Glass houses and all that...

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 3/22/2008 3:51:30 PM
Author: surfgirl
Diva, I just want to point out that while I''m sure there are people such as you describe, there are also plenty of folks from that country who are hard, honest workers and I see them all the time. I could also say that the sort of people you describe are also plentiful here in the US and unlike your example, they are actually US citizens...so it goes both ways, it''s not only one ''group'' that has bad seeds. We have plenty of ''Americans'' like that in our own country. Glass houses and all that...

Two wrongs don''t make a right.

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 3/22/2008 3:59:20 PM
Author: LAJennifer

Date: 3/22/2008 3:51:30 PM

Author: surfgirl

Diva, I just want to point out that while I''m sure there are people such as you describe, there are also plenty of folks from that country who are hard, honest workers and I see them all the time. I could also say that the sort of people you describe are also plentiful here in the US and unlike your example, they are actually US citizens...so it goes both ways, it''s not only one ''group'' that has bad seeds. We have plenty of ''Americans'' like that in our own country. Glass houses and all that...

Two wrongs don''t make a right.

And your point is what?

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 3/21/2008 9:26:14 PM
Author: surfgirl

Date: 3/21/2008 12:31:11 PM

Author: sunnyd

This country is all about money money money. We want the best stuff for the lowest price. We also want the most amount of money for the least amount of effort. The US cannot compete with foreign markets in terms of price, because Americans don't want to pay for the higher costs of labor and materials. We can't blame foreign countries for what's happening, when it's Americans themselves who are creating the 'problem'.

Exactly. You said that way better than I did, thanks!

Yes, that's it in a nutshell.

greed, greed, and more greed.

You can blame the consumer who is unwilling to pay a little more for basic goods.
If Americans were willing to pay a bit more for the basics, we'd have more jobs in this country and more goods made in the US. Protecting US jobs supports the economy which benefits society at large.

You can blame the heads of the corporations who produce these goods. They want the cheapest labor for the highest profits. If they would just keep factories within the US, pay skilled workers a real living wage, our economy would benefit.
We also regulate in a way that China does not. Our regulatory methods are not infallible,(recent beef recalls, for example)but we have a few more in place.

I wouldn't blame China. The current Chinese market is a byproduct of US corporate greed.

Just for fun:
American CEOs on average make 400 times the amount of their average worker. In Japan, CEOs make about 40 times the amount of their average worker. Last time I checked, the Japanese economy was doing fine and dandy. The US economy? Not so much.

 

[diamondfan]

I try to avoid it now, since the scare has been in so many sectors, from food to pets food to toys etc, it just scares me. I am sure that I do still end with with stuff from China or stuff that came through China and was possibly affected...but who knows? I definitely try to avoid the stuff if possible.