Listening to the concerns of the other political side...

[arkieb1]

Without wanting to threadjack the other post, I am starting a new post with JoCoJenn, and others, without any name calling, any assumptions being made about the other member's political platform or the things the "other" side believes in. After the elections I read two things that really resonated with me, one was, that many average conservative voting Americans are sick of being talked down too, like they are all stupid hillbilly idiots and while some of them maybe well fit that label, many simply do not. The election of Trump was therefore in part, a backlash against the establishment and what Hillary and the Democrats at the time were perceived to represent. I've read countless essays saying that Trump somehow represents a figurehead for the ordinary unheard voter.

The other thing that I read that really made me nod in agreement is that most people that have really strong political beliefs do so from a combination of factors, such as their backgrounds, their families, their social and emotional experiences and the environment they live in and grew up in. Some people rebel against the status quo, most, however, adopt the same set of political beliefs as their friends, family, neighbours and so on.

What most analysts can tell us is, that most of these people will NEVER change these set of beliefs, you can yell, shout, write abusive things, you can make a list of rational arguments and the other person will still assume they are right because their beliefs are an ingrained part of who they are. When you attack their belief systems, you inadvertently or in some cases intentionally, attack the person. They take it personally.

I personally have a very conservative mother, who not only echos but could write the dialogue of the play book of the same political concerns/beliefs that Dancing Fire has written on here, interestingly enough, both of them have Chinese backgrounds. My father on the other hand who is half English and half Scotsman, is a political lefty like me, who spent most of my University years worried he would see me on TV chained to a tree or under a bulldozer or being arrested at a human rights protest. That never happened, but I am still very proudly a left political thinker.

This does not in any way make me think my mother is stupid (because she has a different set of political beliefs and values to my own), nor would I say to her some of the things that have been said on the internet or indeed on here. My husband too, truth be known is somewhere in the middle, more conservative than left, but more reasonably tolerant shall we say than many right winged conservatives I know.

So with that in mind I want to have an honest question and answer dialogue with Trump supporters, or perhaps in many cases conservative voters (who themselves don't like Trump) without it turning into a pile on, or an attack on any one individual......


Arkie - Thank you (sincerely) for asking me to elaborate vs. casting blanket judgments as some others have; I do appreciate that.

In this election, I voted for the platform; not the person/personality ... it's not a popularity contest, but I felt both Chump & Clinton were jerks who didn't earn nor deserve my respect as 'people' - one couldn't even properly pour a beer and the other should be wearing one or more. I chose the party/platform that most closely aligned with my own beliefs, experiences, etc., and that is more conservative/Republican (obviously) than liberal. That said, I do have some more 'centric' views than 'ultra' conservatives such as being pro-choice. I find it amusing, however, the never-ending allegations by liberals (and assumptions by some foreigners) that all/most conservatives are racists, considering it was Democratic party that fought against the Civil Rights Act, and Republicans fought to end slavery. But I digress ... yes, I am anti-discrimination, for equal rights with no gender, orientation or religious modifier, in all areas of our constitution ... and for all of our citizens.

On to your questions:

- Am I feeling 'more secure'? Today? Of course not, it's been <2 weeks ... you don't score a touchdown without getting a series of first downs, or at the very least, throwing a hail Mary (football lingo, not religion); I'll get a better sense following the first quarter, possibly half-tme. I'm not thrilled with Chump's 'how' (his implementation of the strategy), and I don't always like or agree with his verbiage choices; but I am in agreement with the 'what' as part of the broader National Security strategy which always is my top priority, albeit slightly varying levels of 'significance' depending on the state of affairs. I'm sorry others feel they are 'suffering', but I and many others made it through eight years of worrying about this country, its direction, feeling ignored or marginalized, questioning if our leadership mistook the constitution for toilet paper; so, I'm confident others will make it, too.

- Secure against what? Yes, terrorism, but also the current global & domestic economic environments, our nation's debt, unemployment, weakened relations with our allies, and worse 'relations' with our enemies. NatSec - to me - is not one dimensional (e.g., terrorism). There's also border/cyber/information security, Defense, Intel, foreign relations, economic relations, etc., and each of those is also multi-dimensional. Any one of these things bearing weakness can lead to detrimental outcomes for our country; I happen to think these are all in desperate need of repair, especially if we're to continue helping others. Greece is an economic example of where I think we are heading if we don't get our collective stuff together, though I suspect a stronger likelihood our new language would be either Farsi, Ukranian, Chinese, or Korean. And no, I'm not afraid of "Mexicans stealing Americans' jobs"; I'm concerned about the vast numbers of people in this country already who are unemployed, hungry and homeless, and it's my view we (community & government) should largely care for our own citizens at least as good as and before we do non-citizens. That doesn't make me a xenophobe; it means I care about 'my neighbor', and expect my government to manage to a budget like the rest of us, and thus 'know when to say way'; not keeping the gates open and cash flowing to the point that my great grandkids would likely never see a balanced budget or 'reasonable' debt limit.

Do I *think* Chump can fix it all? Of course not, but his opponent would have continued the path we were on (over a cliff), and clearly that is in stark contrast to where I (and approximately half this country) felt we needed to go ... so much so that we (including a LOT of women) elected the loud/foul-mouthed, poor etiquette 'perv' from N.Y. (who was NOT under FBI investigation nor criminally charged with/found guilty of sex assault) over the undeniably very historic first woman Presidential candidate from a major political party (who herself as well as her charitable foundation WAS under FBI investigation). Does that make me happy to type? Absolutely not. Can I lay my head on the pillow every night, and know - in my gut - that I made what I felt to be the best decision for my country (and not myself or my anatomy)? Yes. I would never place anyone else's life in a position I myself would not willingly go first, and there was NO way I could or would have trusted Clinton as Commander in Chief of our military men & women, and to date, I've yet to hear a single one of my service brothers/sisters who would.

 

[arkieb1]

JoCoJenn - I actually agree with your first point, I think Hillary was a bad choice, and Trump and even worse one. I don't hate conservatives or their way of thinking, I don't believe a former reality TV star, corrupt businessman with no moral compass should ever have been made president. If the conservatives had anyone else I wouldn't even bother writing the political things on here that I do. I feel alarmed that someone with so little rational thinking skills is the leader of the free world now. People have argued that his party will keep him in check, I guess we can all hope that is true.

You say here and I quote "[i]I'm sorry others feel they are 'suffering', but I and many others made it through eight years of worrying about this country, its direction, feeling ignored or marginalized, questioning if our leadership mistook the constitution for toilet paper; so, I'm confident others will make it, too." [/i]

So the obvious question is you feel ignored and marginalised by the other political side because they ignore working class people? Country people? White people? You feel ignored, so what I am asking is why?

- Secure against what? Yes, terrorism, but also the current global & domestic economic environments, our nation's debt, unemployment, weakened relations with our allies, and worse 'relations' with our enemies. NatSec - to me - is not one dimensional (e.g., terrorism). There's also border/cyber/information security, Defense, Intel, foreign relations, economic relations, etc., and each of those is also multi-dimensional. Any one of these things bearing weakness can lead to detrimental outcomes for our country; I happen to think these are all in desperate need of repair, especially if we're to continue helping others.

I actually think part of the reason apart from the global financial crisis that your economic environment is so bad is because you don't support your own people enough, but I know most conservatives don't agree with many aspects of the welfare system. I think we can both agree it's currently broken and needs fixing.

I saw this great article on Aussie 60mins about cyber & general information security. It was about top hackers who mostly live in Europe hiding they can hack into any system, the govt, your computer, or mine, our phones anything within a few minutes. They are the people who sometimes design these security systems so they can of course exploit them. I don't think there is any point in losing sleep worrying about something that most politicians themselves don't fully grasp.

Greece is an economic example of where I think we are heading if we don't get our collective stuff together, though I suspect a stronger likelihood our new language would be either Farsi, Ukranian, Chinese, or Korean.

I want you to look at that statement objectively. Yes Greece has a crap economy for a whole host of reasons quite different to the US, but the fact your country will all be overrun or taken over (which correct me if I'm wrong, but seems to be what you are suggesting) isn't going to happen, at least not in your or your children's life time, and well to be blunt it comes across as a racist statement make from a place of fear, when I would argue those fears are not justifiable.


And no, I'm not afraid of "Mexicans stealing Americans' jobs"; I'm concerned about the vast numbers of people in this country already who are unemployed, hungry and homeless, and it's my view we (community & government) should largely care for our own citizens at least as good as and before we do non-citizens. That doesn't make me a xenophobe; it means I care about 'my neighbor', and expect my government to manage to a budget like the rest of us, and thus 'know when to say way'; not keeping the gates open and cash flowing to the point that my great grandkids would likely never see a balanced budget or 'reasonable' debt limit.

My mother makes many of the same points to me repeatedly about our own domestic issues.... But we also need to remember that we you and I are immigrants to our countries (unless you are more than a certain % native American Indian) and that means that I think we have some level of global responsibility towards other people, particularly when they come from nations that are starving or killing each other. That being said, I've been to the US and for a "developed" country that markets itself as one of the best on the planet, I was shocked to see so much poverty and so little concern for so many of the most vulnerable within your society.


Do I *think* Chump can fix it all? Of course not, but his opponent would have continued the path we were on (over a cliff), and clearly that is in stark contrast to where I (and approximately half this country) felt we needed to go ... so much so that we (including a LOT of women) elected the loud/foul-mouthed, poor etiquette 'perv' from N.Y. (who was NOT under FBI investigation nor criminally charged with/found guilty of sex assault) over the undeniably very historic first woman Presidential candidate from a major political party (who herself as well as her charitable foundation WAS under FBI investigation). Does that make me happy to type? Absolutely not. Can I lay my head on the pillow every night, and know - in my gut - that I made what I felt to be the best decision for my country (and not myself or my anatomy)? Yes. I would never place anyone else's life in a position I myself would not willingly go first, and there was NO way I could or would have trusted Clinton as Commander in Chief of our military men & women, and to date, I've yet to hear a single one of my service brothers/sisters who would.

I hope you can understand that so many of us feel exactly the same way about Trump, that he is untrustworthy, that he could indeed do something really stupid and cause more economic chaos or lead you into another war, or indeed say build a wall that will probably take money away from health, education and so on, that will simply be abandoned by the next political leader who replaces him....

I want to stress despite being a leftie, I'm not anti-conservative, I'm anti Trump and I'm coming from a place where I personally need to know that our top political leaders have some shred of both intelligence and compassion in order to lead effectively.

 

[Tekate]

JoCoJenn - I actually agree with your first point, I think Hillary was a bad choice, and Trump and even worse one. I don't hate conservatives or their way of thinking, I don't believe a former reality TV star, corrupt businessman with no moral compass should ever have been made president. If the conservatives had anyone else I wouldn't even bother writing the political things on here that I do. I feel alarmed that someone with so little rational thinking skills is the leader of the free world now. People have argued that his party will keep him in check, I guess we can all hope that is true.

You say here and I quote "[i]I'm sorry others feel they are 'suffering', but I and many others made it through eight years of worrying about this country, its direction, feeling ignored or marginalized, questioning if our leadership mistook the constitution for toilet paper; so, I'm confident others will make it, too." [/i]

So the obvious question is you feel ignored and marginalised by the other political side because they ignore working class people? Country people? White people? You feel ignored, so what I am asking is why?

- Secure against what? Yes, terrorism, but also the current global & domestic economic environments, our nation's debt, unemployment, weakened relations with our allies, and worse 'relations' with our enemies. NatSec - to me - is not one dimensional (e.g., terrorism). There's also border/cyber/information security, Defense, Intel, foreign relations, economic relations, etc., and each of those is also multi-dimensional. Any one of these things bearing weakness can lead to detrimental outcomes for our country; I happen to think these are all in desperate need of repair, especially if we're to continue helping others.

I actually think part of the reason apart from the global financial crisis that your economic environment is so bad is because you don't support your own people enough, but I know most conservatives don't agree with many aspects of the welfare system. I think we can both agree it's currently broken and needs fixing.

I saw this great article on Aussie 60mins about cyber & general information security. It was about top hackers who mostly live in Europe hiding they can hack into any system, the govt, your computer, or mine, our phones anything within a few minutes. They are the people who sometimes design these security systems so they can of course exploit them. I don't think there is any point in losing sleep worrying about something that most politicians themselves don't fully grasp.

Greece is an economic example of where I think we are heading if we don't get our collective stuff together, though I suspect a stronger likelihood our new language would be either Farsi, Ukranian, Chinese, or Korean.

I want you to look at that statement objectively. Yes Greece has a crap economy for a whole host of reasons quite different to the US, but the fact your country will all be overrun or taken over (which correct me if I'm wrong, but seems to be what you are suggesting) isn't going to happen, at least not in your or your children's life time, and well to be blunt it comes across as a racist statement make from a place of fear, when I would argue those fears are not justifiable.


And no, I'm not afraid of "Mexicans stealing Americans' jobs"; I'm concerned about the vast numbers of people in this country already who are unemployed, hungry and homeless, and it's my view we (community & government) should largely care for our own citizens at least as good as and before we do non-citizens. That doesn't make me a xenophobe; it means I care about 'my neighbor', and expect my government to manage to a budget like the rest of us, and thus 'know when to say way'; not keeping the gates open and cash flowing to the point that my great grandkids would likely never see a balanced budget or 'reasonable' debt limit.

My mother makes many of the same points to me repeatedly about our own domestic issues.... But we also need to remember that we you and I are immigrants to our countries (unless you are more than a certain % native American Indian) and that means that I think we have some level of global responsibility towards other people, particularly when they come from nations that are starving or killing each other. That being said, I've been to the US and for a "developed" country that markets itself as one of the best on the planet, I was shocked to see so much poverty and so little concern for so many of the most vulnerable within your society.


Do I *think* Chump can fix it all? Of course not, but his opponent would have continued the path we were on (over a cliff), and clearly that is in stark contrast to where I (and approximately half this country) felt we needed to go ... so much so that we (including a LOT of women) elected the loud/foul-mouthed, poor etiquette 'perv' from N.Y. (who was NOT under FBI investigation nor criminally charged with/found guilty of sex assault) over the undeniably very historic first woman Presidential candidate from a major political party (who herself as well as her charitable foundation WAS under FBI investigation). Does that make me happy to type? Absolutely not. Can I lay my head on the pillow every night, and know - in my gut - that I made what I felt to be the best decision for my country (and not myself or my anatomy)? Yes. I would never place anyone else's life in a position I myself would not willingly go first, and there was NO way I could or would have trusted Clinton as Commander in Chief of our military men & women, and to date, I've yet to hear a single one of my service brothers/sisters who would.

I hope you can understand that so many of us feel exactly the same way about Trump, that he is untrustworthy, that he could indeed do something really stupid and cause more economic chaos or lead you into another war, or indeed say build a wall that will probably take money away from health, education and so on, that will simply be abandoned by the next political leader who replaces him....

I want to stress despite being a leftie, I'm not anti-conservative, I'm anti Trump and I'm coming from a place where I personally need to know that our top political leaders have some shred of both intelligence and compassion in order to lead effectively.

Hello Arkie, great post. great.

I have questions, many of them, to conservatives.

1) Why do conservatives continually talk about unemployment when the unemployment rate is at a low?

2) Why do conservatives support supply side economics? it's been proven under Reagan and in Kansas right now that it does not work.

3) Are the vast majority of homeless, unemployed, people mentally ill also? Are these people out on the streets because they are ill? and if so do you believe that we should help them ie, house them, train them, assist them medically (all of which is very expensive and would require tax increases at the state level at least).

4) why do you not see that your beliefs infringe on mine? I do not care if you have a god, a buddha, a flying spaghetti monster, but I don't want that belief infringed on me, or my kids. Why can't you see this?

5) do you not believe that America is a JUDEO Christian country, with minority religions that have rights also?

6) Why can't you see the ban on these countries is a ban on Islam?

7) why do you feel it's okay to get into my life with religion and your abortion views? I do not force you to not go to church or to have an abortion? why do you feel like you can push into my life where you want?

Why can you not understand white privilege?

These are just a few of the things I find abhorrent about conservatives..


Arkie, I grew up in a working class home, drug addicted/alcoholic Irish mother, German/American Dad who was an alcoholic. I saw my father work 3 jobs all my life, he was a union member all his working life on the railroad. My mother never worked except for a year in her whole life (yes she was a mother and did that work, poorly, until she became a friend of Bill).. I saw poverty, I experienced child neglect, severe abuse, physical harm, I experienced a male dominated society, (grab em boys, men).. I experienced sexual harassment on my job till I went to IBM and even there in the 80s I experienced it more subtly, but thre. No one talks about classes in America, I certainly came from a lower middle class family. My father was a WWII veteran with 13 battlestars and saw a lot of carnage.. so I'd say I came from an atypical/typical middle class home in the 50 60s blue collar America. My mother was always a democrat but my father was conservative until he was much older, he was a huge Hillary fan before he died n 07, he felt unions were being ruined by republicans. I didn't grow up in a racist home - I thought - until my parents sobered up and my father started discussing blacks (okay this is the 70s).. and he told me that black people's skulls were thicker because the were dumber - and the reason why America was in the shape it was is because Jewish kids weren't paying their college loans back! Yes he said these things, I actually thought I liked him better drunk he didn't talk much when he was drunk.. as time went on he stayed sober and grew and CHANGED.. by the end of their lives my parents didn't go to church, and had a low opinion of Christians in general, so people can change. I was influenced by parents and I wasn't. During the crazzzy 60s I was against the war because I DID see poor boys die and rich boys go to college (or get out cause their uncle was a physician and he made up some story (so my brother in law wouldn't go).. money talks).. I am a product of all I know and read and experienced. Conservatives truly need try to understand blacks, try to understand what it is like to be a minority, to be less than (minor).. even being Jewish in America is not as easy as being christian, because there are less jews. I know this because i have jewish friends

Why don't conservatives read?

very cool Arkie, thanks for letting me spout off on a snowy day in New England.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Excellent questions. The white privilege question baffles me. Didn't someone here start a thread about suing teachers who wore BLM shirts

 

[jaaron]

I'm sorry others feel they are 'suffering', but I and many others made it through eight years of worrying about this country, its direction, feeling ignored or marginalized, questioning if our leadership mistook the constitution for toilet paper;

I'm genuinely interested in the answer to this- not trying to be confrontational or provocative - Can you give me some examples of the above?

 

[siamese3]

Here is what my concern is, my problem with the Trump administration is not a political one, it is that he cannot tell the truth and he seems to be surrounded by people who defend he absurd "untruths," "alternative facts," "beliefs," and "feelings" he has about the state of reality we live in. I am also very concerned about the "agenda" that Bannon, Miller, and others have. I cannot believe that we elected a person to the presidency that seems to have no respect for the presidency or anyone else, at any given time, based on whether you "like" him or not. I do not like that he is a promoter of fear. I am terrified that he used the word "betrayed" when issuing a statement about the firing of Sally Yates. This elected president seems to thrive on chaos and doesn't appear to be able to think anything through or control himself. I am over 50 and for the first time in my life I am embarrassed by our president. I am afraid for this country.

 

[arkieb1]

Tekate - I think white conservatives read, they just read different things to us and when they do read the same things we both read them with different agendas which why we don't all come to the same conclusions, we don't read something they give us the same way they do necessarily so it works both ways. My mother for example is extremely intelligent, but she still shares many of the same views as conservatives here, she sees the world and has her own personal fixed narrative so to speak that shapes anything she reads a certain way.

Elliot86 - People not understanding or even trying to understand white privilege used to baffle me too, I have family members that are Indigenous Australians (yes that's correct black Australians) but the more I try and see things from the point of view of the other side the more I am convinced there are several camps, those that simply refuse to see and understand white privilege because they don't want to for fear of losing some position of power, for fear of "the other" for a whole host of fears, and those who cannot see white privilege because no matter how hard we try, their own personal circumstances, their own stories, their own histories impact their ability to be able to step outside their comfort zones, and the environments they are comfortable in, and even acknowledge that such a thing exists.

Siamese3 - Internationally Trump is an embarrassment. Many Americans, however, cannot or will not see that.

 

[bunnycat]

Without wanting to threadjack the other post, I am starting a new post with JoCoJenn, and others, without any name calling, any assumptions being made about the other member's political platform or the things the "other" side believes in. After the elections I read two things that really resonated with me, one was, that many average conservative voting Americans are sick of being talked down too, like they are all stupid hillbilly idiots and while some of them maybe well fit that label, many simply do not. The election of Trump was therefore in part, a backlash against the establishment and what Hillary and the Democrats at the time were perceived to represent. I've read countless essays saying that Trump somehow represents a figurehead for the ordinary unheard voter.

The other thing that I read that really made me nod in agreement is that most people that have really strong political beliefs do so from a combination of factors, such as their backgrounds, their families, their social and emotional experiences and the environment they live in and grew up in. Some people rebel against the status quo, most, however, adopt the same set of political beliefs as their friends, family, neighbours and so on.

What most analysts can tell us is, that most of these people will NEVER change these set of beliefs, you can yell, shout, write abusive things, you can make a list of rational arguments and the other person will still assume they are right because their beliefs are an ingrained part of who they are. When you attack their belief systems, you inadvertently or in some cases intentionally, attack the person. They take it personally.

I personally have a very conservative mother, who not only echos but could write the dialogue of the play book of the same political concerns/beliefs that Dancing Fire has written on here, interestingly enough, both of them have Chinese backgrounds. My father on the other hand who is half English and half Scotsman, is a political lefty like me, who spent most of my University years worried he would see me on TV chained to a tree or under a bulldozer or being arrested at a human rights protest. That never happened, but I am still very proudly a left political thinker.

This does not in any way make me think my mother is stupid (because she has a different set of political beliefs and values to my own), nor would I say to her some of the things that have been said on the internet or indeed on here. My husband too, truth be known is somewhere in the middle, more conservative than left, but more reasonably tolerant shall we say than many right winged conservatives I know.

So with that in mind I want to have an honest question and answer dialogue with Trump supporters, or perhaps in many cases conservative voters (who themselves don't like Trump) without it turning into a pile on, or an attack on any one individual......


Arkie - Thank you (sincerely) for asking me to elaborate vs. casting blanket judgments as some others have; I do appreciate that.

In this election, I voted for the platform; not the person/personality ... it's not a popularity contest, but I felt both Chump & Clinton were jerks who didn't earn nor deserve my respect as 'people' - one couldn't even properly pour a beer and the other should be wearing one or more. I chose the party/platform that most closely aligned with my own beliefs, experiences, etc., and that is more conservative/Republican (obviously) than liberal. That said, I do have some more 'centric' views than 'ultra' conservatives such as being pro-choice. I find it amusing, however, the never-ending allegations by liberals (and assumptions by some foreigners) that all/most conservatives are racists, considering it was Democratic party that fought against the Civil Rights Act, and Republicans fought to end slavery. But I digress ... yes, I am anti-discrimination, for equal rights with no gender, orientation or religious modifier, in all areas of our constitution ... and for all of our citizens.

On to your questions:

- Am I feeling 'more secure'? Today? Of course not, it's been <2 weeks ... you don't score a touchdown without getting a series of first downs, or at the very least, throwing a hail Mary (football lingo, not religion); I'll get a better sense following the first quarter, possibly half-tme. I'm not thrilled with Chump's 'how' (his implementation of the strategy), and I don't always like or agree with his verbiage choices; but I am in agreement with the 'what' as part of the broader National Security strategy which always is my top priority, albeit slightly varying levels of 'significance' depending on the state of affairs. I'm sorry others feel they are 'suffering', but I and many others made it through eight years of worrying about this country, its direction, feeling ignored or marginalized, questioning if our leadership mistook the constitution for toilet paper; so, I'm confident others will make it, too.

- Secure against what? Yes, terrorism, but also the current global & domestic economic environments, our nation's debt, unemployment, weakened relations with our allies, and worse 'relations' with our enemies. NatSec - to me - is not one dimensional (e.g., terrorism). There's also border/cyber/information security, Defense, Intel, foreign relations, economic relations, etc., and each of those is also multi-dimensional. Any one of these things bearing weakness can lead to detrimental outcomes for our country; I happen to think these are all in desperate need of repair, especially if we're to continue helping others. Greece is an economic example of where I think we are heading if we don't get our collective stuff together, though I suspect a stronger likelihood our new language would be either Farsi, Ukranian, Chinese, or Korean. And no, I'm not afraid of "Mexicans stealing Americans' jobs"; I'm concerned about the vast numbers of people in this country already who are unemployed, hungry and homeless, and it's my view we (community & government) should largely care for our own citizens at least as good as and before we do non-citizens. That doesn't make me a xenophobe; it means I care about 'my neighbor', and expect my government to manage to a budget like the rest of us, and thus 'know when to say way'; not keeping the gates open and cash flowing to the point that my great grandkids would likely never see a balanced budget or 'reasonable' debt limit.

Do I *think* Chump can fix it all? Of course not, but his opponent would have continued the path we were on (over a cliff), and clearly that is in stark contrast to where I (and approximately half this country) felt we needed to go ... so much so that we (including a LOT of women) elected the loud/foul-mouthed, poor etiquette 'perv' from N.Y. (who was NOT under FBI investigation nor criminally charged with/found guilty of sex assault) over the undeniably very historic first woman Presidential candidate from a major political party (who herself as well as her charitable foundation WAS under FBI investigation). Does that make me happy to type? Absolutely not. Can I lay my head on the pillow every night, and know - in my gut - that I made what I felt to be the best decision for my country (and not myself or my anatomy)? Yes. I would never place anyone else's life in a position I myself would not willingly go first, and there was NO way I could or would have trusted Clinton as Commander in Chief of our military men & women, and to date, I've yet to hear a single one of my service brothers/sisters who would.

I just want to make one very important point from whomever you are quoting arkie. The Republican and Democratic platforms as we know them today in the US, have switched several times in this countries history. So, at the time of the Civil War, the people known as the "republicans" at that time were actually what the democrats would be now. this switch back and forth has occured a few times, including at least once in this century. So people should be careful when assigning values to "republicans" or "democrats" from 150 years ago based on your party view now. The NAME of the party your see held the OPPOSITE beliefs ( ie the platform of the other party) as to what they do now. So saying that "republicans" as we know the platform today were responsible for ending slavery, is incorrect in spirit. It is only correct in name.

here is a brief synopsis:

http://www.livescience.com/34241-democratic-republican-parties-switch-platforms.html

 

[arkieb1]

O.K Bunnycat, point taken, (I enjoyed the history lesson) the analysts that I read were in fact referring to the entrench political beliefs of Americans in the last couple of decades, and many of them were referring only to this most recent election. Yes there are undecided voters too, that can be swayed in one direction in any election. I'm referring to people that always vote for one of the two major parties due to their set of "beliefs."

 

[jaaron]

I'm sorry others feel they are 'suffering', but I and many others made it through eight years of worrying about this country, its direction, feeling ignored or marginalized, questioning if our leadership mistook the constitution for toilet paper;

I'm genuinely interested in the answer to this- not trying to be confrontational or provocative - Can you give me some examples of the above?

Sorry- I think I'm too late to edit. Just to clarify- I was specifically wondering about the mistaking the constitution bit.

 

[monarch64]

All I know is that a little levity goes a long way. This is sometimes offensive to people when they are particularly passionate about the issue at hand, and that's understandable. I just feel that there are two options in life: laugh about it or cry about it. This is why I never get offended by Dancing Fire's posts--he's funny and he's great with one-liners even if he's wrong.

 

[arkieb1]

Jaaron - Does that specific part really need explaining? I think Trump is doing a pretty good job of wiping his butt with your constitution..... conservatives argue Hillary would have done the same thing.

 

[bunnycat]

O.K Bunnycat, point taken, the analysts that I read were in fact referring to the entrench political beliefs of Americans in the last couple of decades. Yes there are undecided voters too, that can be swayed in one direction in any election. I'm referring to people that always vote for one of the two major parties due to their set of "beliefs."

I guess the point i am making is that this switch is so little known, even here in the US, that I guess there are people here who consider themselves "republican" in the modern sense of the word, who may believe somehow that a party which believes as they do now somehow undid slavery, and they are proud of it (I deduced this from the part I bolded). And that is not the case. They are in fact, actually lauding actions which would now be gathered under the Democratic platform. At least one more switch had to occur to get us to our current alignments. It is simply projecting their own party views now to being the same as people 100 or 200 yeas ago, and that is a fallacy.

 

[arkieb1]

All I know is that a little levity goes a long way. This is sometimes offensive to people when they are particularly passionate about the issue at hand, and that's understandable. I just feel that there are two options in life: laugh about it or cry about it. This is why I never get offended by Dancing Fire's posts--he's funny and he's great with one-liners even if he's wrong.

I love Dancing Fire he is like the male blinged out, X-rated version of my mother

 

[arkieb1]

O.K Bunnycat, point taken, the analysts that I read were in fact referring to the entrench political beliefs of Americans in the last couple of decades. Yes there are undecided voters too, that can be swayed in one direction in any election. I'm referring to people that always vote for one of the two major parties due to their set of "beliefs."

I guess the point i am making is that this switch is so little known, even here in the US, that I guess there are people here who consider themselves "republican" in the modern sense of the word, who may believe somehow that a party which believes as they do now somehow undid slavery, and they are proud of it (I deduced this from the part I bolded). And that is not the case. They are in fact, actually lauding actions which would now be gathered under the Democratic platform. At least one more switch had to occur to get us to our current alignments. It is simply projecting their own party views now to being the same as people 100 or 200 yeas ago, and that is a fallacy.

Yes but as you so elegantly point out many of them are blissfully unaware of the sides changing throughout history. They passionately defend the conservatism they know now not the conservative of 10 or 20 decades ago.

 

[jaaron]

Jaaron - Does that specific part really need explaining? I think Trump is doing a pretty good job of wiping his butt with your constitution..... conservatives argue Hillary would have done the same thing.

I keep hearing people say that they felt the Obama administration spent eight years ignoring the Constitution--I think the phrasing here was 'questioning if our leadership mistook the constitution for toilet paper' and I truly don't understand it, so am looking for some concrete examples to help me try.

 

[arkieb1]

Jaaron - Does that specific part really need explaining? I think Trump is doing a pretty good job of wiping his butt with your constitution..... conservatives argue Hillary would have done the same thing.

I keep hearing people say that they felt the Obama administration spent eight years ignoring the Constitution--I think the phrasing here was 'questioning if our leadership mistook the constitution for toilet paper' and I truly don't understand it, so am looking for some concrete examples to help me try.

In that case, I will be also patiently waiting for the answer.

 

[the_mother_thing]

ArkieB - Please know I am not ignoring you/your questions. I simply have not yet had enough caffeine to allow my brain to fully function beyond 3 sentences.

I appreciate the opportunity to have respectful dialogue in hopes not of changing anyone's mind; rather, to hopefully foster understanding and mutual respect for differences of OPINION.

 

[Tekate]

Jaaron - Does that specific part really need explaining? I think Trump is doing a pretty good job of wiping his butt with your constitution..... conservatives argue Hillary would have done the same thing.

Hey Arkie - I have to say, I heard for over 8 years, we are a republic, we are governed by the constitution, I admit, I relied on my college and high school memories of classes taken in government to feed my thoughts and ideas. THEN! I started reading a few weeks ago about conservatives and their views to try and really understand why this all happened. And Red and Ruby both made me read because I just could not wrap my head around their ideas/views/thoughts. THEN I read more. I learned more...We are a republic, and conservatives live and die by the constitution, as it was written in 1778ish, I view the constitution as a living document, a document that needs to be re-evaluated as time goes on - case: the right to bear arms, that meant in 1778 that people had a right to have a musket, that took forever to load and they could form armies to combat government take over etc. So conservatives interpret this to mean, they have a right to a gun(s) any kind they like to protect themselves from an over reaching government, attacks from robbers etc.. I view the 2nd amendment as a living, changing document to fit the times, so I view the 2nd amendment as the right to form a national guard, not that every citizen can get a gun. If I had to say for sure, I'd say people who take ancient documents as literal are more conservative (the bible say).. Liberals evolve and change as times change. I truly don't know if there can be a consensus between the two groups. I don't see the word militia to be anything else than a national guard. Different way to view things..

I read the conservatives need a strong leader, they are followers; Hitler, Mussolini, the King/Queen, they need to feel safe, secure and free from harm. Liberals don't like rules and find autocratic style of government scary.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/22/opinion/kristof-politics-odors-and-soap.html?ref=opinion

I try to get into the mind of conservatives but I can't and never could follow autocrats, leaders like Trump are anathema to me.. no compromise, no discussion, no care that he lost the election by 3million votes, he only won the electoral college. So he is not even governing to the majority, to me he and Bannon care not one hoot and think they know better than I what is best for me. So as I said I try, keep on trying to understand and verbalize in a better way.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I call myself center left. Both choices for Pres were bad. Both parties must be accountable for better candidates. While I voted Hillary, I did have to reflect on what Trump was offering. The things he said resonated with me as well. We NEED border control. Its beyond believability that we have 11 million illegal immigrants here; 6.8 million Mexicans. The financial burden on smaller municipalities is huge. Yes, many work but local Govt pay for services. (medical, social services).

Although we have reached almost full employment, there are industries that have suffered through the relocation of manufacturing jobs,(autos pay well) and there are segment of the population that would be helped by the return of those jobs, even secondary level jobs in telephone banks might help.

So, there are areas where I support Trump, and if I have time will do so later to list others.

My concern is that both the far right and the far left are the ones that are making the noises that will hurt democracy. While I believe that "messy" is Ok in a democracy, I do believe too much dissent can turn into anarchy or total paralysis. An autocrat can arise. I think both far right and far left are the cause for this awful situation.

This forum veers on hysteria at times. This is a great country, but when I read here, I wonder.

Arkie, I really have wondered about you. I fear at times the liberals here are not giving you an accurate picture of America.
We really have come a long way.

Annette

 

[t-c]

Hi,

I call myself center left. Both choices for Pres were bad. Both parties must be accountable for better candidates. While I voted Hillary, I did have to reflect on what Trump was offering. The things he said resonated with me as well. We NEED border control. Its beyond believability that we have 11 million illegal immigrants here; 6.8 million Mexicans. The financial burden on smaller municipalities is huge. Yes, many work but local Govt pay for services. (medical, social services).

Although we have reached almost full employment, there are industries that have suffered through the relocation of manufacturing jobs,(autos pay well) and there are segment of the population that would be helped by the return of those jobs, even secondary level jobs in telephone banks might help.

So, there are areas where I support Trump, and if I have time will do so later to list others.

My concern is that both the far right and the far left are the ones that are making the noises that will hurt democracy. While I believe that "messy" is Ok in a democracy, I do believe too much dissent can turn into anarchy or total paralysis. An autocrat can arise. I think both far right and far left are the cause for this awful situation.

This forum veers on hysteria at times. This is a great country, but when I read here, I wonder.

Arkie, I really have wondered about you. I fear at times the liberals here are not giving you an accurate picture of America.
We really have come a long way.

Annette

85% of the manufacturing jobs that were lost were lost due to automation and technology, not international trade or illegal immigration. Those jobs are not coming back -- no matter how protectionist the US becomes. See this article in the Financial Times: https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-b7e6-11e6-ba85-95d1533d9a62

ETA: see also "Wanted: Factory Workers, Degree Required" https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/...-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

 

[Tekate]

Hi,

I call myself center left. Both choices for Pres were bad. Both parties must be accountable for better candidates. While I voted Hillary, I did have to reflect on what Trump was offering. The things he said resonated with me as well. We NEED border control. Its beyond believability that we have 11 million illegal immigrants here; 6.8 million Mexicans. The financial burden on smaller municipalities is huge. Yes, many work but local Govt pay for services. (medical, social services).

Although we have reached almost full employment, there are industries that have suffered through the relocation of manufacturing jobs,(autos pay well) and there are segment of the population that would be helped by the return of those jobs, even secondary level jobs in telephone banks might help.

So, there are areas where I support Trump, and if I have time will do so later to list others.

My concern is that both the far right and the far left are the ones that are making the noises that will hurt democracy. While I believe that "messy" is Ok in a democracy, I do believe too much dissent can turn into anarchy or total paralysis. An autocrat can arise. I think both far right and far left are the cause for this awful situation.

This forum veers on hysteria at times. This is a great country, but when I read here, I wonder.

Arkie, I really have wondered about you. I fear at times the liberals here are not giving you an accurate picture of America.
We really have come a long way.

Annette

Hi Annette, I read your post with great interest! I wish I could say I support anything Trump will do. But I do believe in meeting in CENTER left or right. I felt last year that the far left had hijacked the democratic party and rammed Bernie through, I didn't think Bernie had a chance, but I was pretty sure Clinton (who was much much more centrist and at times right of center) would win, Clinton lost. Such is life, and if Trump had taken into consideration some of the democratic ideals then I could have lived with him, I bitch about Reagan, and personally I feel he was the impetus to all this far right stuff, I didnt spend tons of time and money against Reagan, I waited. This time Annette, it feels different to me, we have a Rasputin type figure behind Trump, we have many states that have been gerrymandered by republicans in charge, this stuff is crazy.. I never thought I would see this in my life, I never thought republicans would do something like the gerrymandering and when the Supreme court ruled that companies are people, it threw America into a Kafkaesque type of country. I like that Trump has barred his people from doing any kind of lobbying for years, Obama did this also but not as long as Trump as requested.. I like that. Where I differ is, the illegals who are here can apply and be vetted just like the refugees, they are good they stay. We can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.. If they build a wall, it's not a big deal to me, since there already is a fence, a smarter thing is cameras... but the wall is symbolic to people who need something to calm their fear of Mexicans and South Americans.

I cannot say I think we are a great country right now, but we were once.. (and I don't mean under Obama either).. last time I guess would have been under Eisenhower and then Kennedy.. after that no. I think we have the potential to be great again with leaders who lead and try to bring together.. we haven't had that since Kennedy.

and Arkie: America is full of wonderful people, great places, it's always been a salad bowl. We just are divided.

 

[Tekate]

Hi,

I call myself center left. Both choices for Pres were bad. Both parties must be accountable for better candidates. While I voted Hillary, I did have to reflect on what Trump was offering. The things he said resonated with me as well. We NEED border control. Its beyond believability that we have 11 million illegal immigrants here; 6.8 million Mexicans. The financial burden on smaller municipalities is huge. Yes, many work but local Govt pay for services. (medical, social services).

Although we have reached almost full employment, there are industries that have suffered through the relocation of manufacturing jobs,(autos pay well) and there are segment of the population that would be helped by the return of those jobs, even secondary level jobs in telephone banks might help.

So, there are areas where I support Trump, and if I have time will do so later to list others.

My concern is that both the far right and the far left are the ones that are making the noises that will hurt democracy. While I believe that "messy" is Ok in a democracy, I do believe too much dissent can turn into anarchy or total paralysis. An autocrat can arise. I think both far right and far left are the cause for this awful situation.

This forum veers on hysteria at times. This is a great country, but when I read here, I wonder.

Arkie, I really have wondered about you. I fear at times the liberals here are not giving you an accurate picture of America.
We really have come a long way.

Annette

85% of the manufacturing jobs that were lost were lost due to automation and technology, not international trade or illegal immigration. Those jobs are not coming back -- no matter how protectionist the US becomes. See this article in the Financial Times: https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-b7e6-11e6-ba85-95d1533d9a62

ETA: see also "Wanted: Factory Workers, Degree Required" https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/...-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

Agree, in the manufacturing sector many jobs did go to China and Malaysia and Viet Nam, but those too are being taken over by automation.

 

[ruby59]

White privilege.

Yes, I am white.

I am also Jewish and wear a Star of David and Chai prominently and proudly.

Do they cancel each other out?

How would a white supremacist react to and treat me?

 

[Dancing Fire]

1) Why do conservatives continually talk about unemployment when the unemployment rate is at a low?

2) Why do conservatives support supply side economics? it's been proven under Reagan and in Kansas right now that it does not work.

Why can you not understand white privilege?

The real unemployment rate was very high under Obama. The Obama Admin didn't include the people who gave up looking for a job. The best month under Obama was 275K new jobs. He is the only post war President who didn't see a 3% GDP.

Reagan came in and fixed what Carter screwed up. He grew the economy by creating millions of new jobs and put a stop on inflation.

I don't understand what you mean by white privilege?

 

[Dancing Fire]

the illegals who are here can apply and be vetted just like the refugees, they are good they stay. We can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.. If they build a wall, it's not a big deal to me, since there already is a fence, a smarter thing is cameras... but the wall is symbolic to people who need something to calm their fear of Mexicans and South Americans.

I'd agree!. IMO, all illegals should receive a 5 yr temporary green card and if he/she didn't committed any felony during these 5 yrs then they can apply for citizenship.

 

[t-c]

The real unemployment rate was very high under Obama. The Obama Admin didn't include the people who gave up looking for a job. The best month under Obama was 275K new jobs. He is the only post war President who didn't see a 3% GDP.

Reagan came in and fixed what Carter screwed up. He grew the economy by creating millions of new jobs and put a stop on inflation.

I don't understand what you mean by white privilege?

This is standard practice when reporting unemployment numbers. People who dropped out of the employment market weren't counted during the Reagan era either. And a lot of the recent drop in labor force participation can be explained by baby boomers starting to retire. See this: https://qz.com/286213/the-chart-obama-haters-love-most-and-the-truth-behind-it/

 

[Tekate]

White privilege.

Yes, I am white.

I am also Jewish and wear a Star of David and Chai prominently and proudly.

Do they cancel each other out?

How would a white supremacist react to and treat me?

White privilege has nothing to do with white supremacists. BTW those groups all hate jews.

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/12/16/13861912/white-supremacist-groups-alt-right

 

[Tekate]

The real unemployment rate was very high under Obama. The Obama Admin didn't include the people who gave up looking for a job. The best month under Obama was 275K new jobs. He is the only post war President who didn't see a 3% GDP.

Reagan came in and fixed what Carter screwed up. He grew the economy by creating millions of new jobs and put a stop on inflation.

I don't understand what you mean by white privilege?

This is standard practice when reporting unemployment numbers. People who dropped out of the employment market weren't counted during the Reagan era either. And a lot of the recent drop in labor force participation can be explained by baby boomers starting to retire. See this: https://qz.com/286213/the-chart-obama-haters-love-most-and-the-truth-behind-it/

EEEK! don't mention the great Ronnie Reagan in a demeaning way.. DF loves RR and wishes he were still here..

 

[House Cat]

1) Why do conservatives continually talk about unemployment when the unemployment rate is at a low?

2) Why do conservatives support supply side economics? it's been proven under Reagan and in Kansas right now that it does not work.

Why can you not understand white privilege?

The real unemployment rate was very high under Obama. The Obama Admin didn't include the people who gave up looking for a job. The best month under Obama was 275K new jobs. He is the only post war President who didn't see a 3% GDP.

Reagan came in and fixed what Carter screwed up. He grew the economy by creating millions of new jobs and put a stop on inflation.

I don't understand what you mean by white privilege?

Alternative facts.

Both Bush's had below a 3% AVERAGE GDP.

You really should take some time to learn about the false bubble they created in the Reagan economy. He didn't save anything. He read one of the most corrupt and failed administrations in history. We are still paying the price today for his failed economic policies.

Yet you people invoke his name like Jesus. It's an embarrassment!