Let's Talk About it: Equal Pay

[monarch64]

Carrying this over from Kenny's thread: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/who-wants-to-have-kims-derrière.275166/

So back in early August I received a message from a former co-worker letting me know that my old position as an apparel buyer was open again and that they wanted to know if I was available/interested. I kind of got a chuckle out of it but then I started thinking that I had enjoyed the job (10 years ago) in spite of some issues. I thought the issues would no longer be relevant since so much time had gone by. I then accepted an interview and things went well during that meeting. I asked how much the position paid (when I left years ago every person in a buyer position made the same amount) and was told an amount. I didn't realize then that a rather arbitrary number was given to me and that the across-the-board pay scale no longer existed. My bad for not being more specific and probing further.

I should say that this is an independent business that's been around in the same location for almost 50 years. It's an extremely popular retailer and one of very few of its kind in my geographical region. Same owner since 1973.

The day after my interview I received an offer and just started coming to work. Things were great, the vibes were good, fun energy, interesting people, and some added perks since my last tenure there. FFWD to this past Friday when I got a call from a former coworker who has stayed in touch with everyone all this time. They congratulated me on returning and made a remark about how happy I must be about the increase in pay. I said it's nothing to write home about but seems in line with what the owner has been known to pay. At that point, the person said wow, I'm surprised to hear you say that it's not a big deal...which led to us getting into specifics about who was making how much. You can see where this is going, I'm sure. I found out I wasn't making the same as anyone in my same position; in fact, I was making LESS than my two male co-workers and the other female buyer is making even less than me. WTF.

Now, I had all weekend to chew on this and think using logic and reason rather than emotion. While it was insulting and a ding to my ego, I just for the life of me cannot figure out why I wasn't offered the same amount of pay as 2 men who are new hires, with far less experience, one with a semi-relevant degree and one without a degree, while I have decades of relevant experience, a proven track record AT this particular business, and a degree that directly relates to buying, specifically apparel buying. One of the men is retired and is only working part-time while his psychiatrist wife is finishing up her work years before they move out west. The other is a young man, unmarried, without children, who has 4-5 years experience working part-time jobs through college. He just graduated maybe 2 years ago and is still on his parents' insurance.

So I thought and I thought. And knowing the owner from years ago and his personality and tendency to fly off the handle over any perceived wrong, I was reluctant to call him right off the bat and ask why I wasn't being paid the same. I decided to go straight to the source who hired me today (the part-timer making more than me in the same position) and just said "I don't think I can work here knowing I'm being paid less than the guys." Then HE went into sort of a hissy fit and starting flailing around making lots of excuses and not offering any solutions. Problem Solving 101 tells me personally that he could've just said, well, didn't mean for that to be the case, let's try to get this resolved. Nope. I calmly handed over my keys and let him know I'd be available for any questions but that all work was caught up and they should have plenty of time to find a replacement before a big buying trip in November.

Welp, that's the jist. My mother said I should've just stayed quiet and hoped they'd bump me up in a year. She is 80. LOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

[lulu_ma]

I don't even know how to properly respond-I'm just so angry for you! But good on you for taking a stand. The part timer is clearly a nimrod. In this job market, good workers are literally worth their weight in gold.

 

[kenny]

I 100% agree that pay should be equal across genders.
But employees vary in what pay they'll accept.
Why pay all the same as those who demand and command more?
It's a can of worms.

One principle of business is it to lower expenses, and employee pay is a huge one.
Some managers/companies say, F equality and "fairness".
Lower costs (and increase my bonus) by paying each individual the least they will accept.
That's why they don't want you talking bout pay.
It will expose unequal pay, not just gender, but the sheep settle for less pay than the lions in the company, regardless of gender.

People who are good at negotiating get are more highly paid than those who are afraid to, or poor at negotiating, and just take whatever they are offered.
Managers 'having hissy fits", or getting all emotional is often just pulling one negotiating technique.
So, throw your own hissy fit, get all emotional right back.
They may fire you, but they may give into your demands and respect you for it.

I love buying new cars because I see through their tactics and pull my own.
It's got nothing to do with gender.
I'll bet lots of women do the same thing.

 

[monarch64]

Kenny, I would also like to say it has nothing to do with gender, but women are socially conditioned that we are too emotional, that we could never be trusted to do things like run a country because of our emotions, etc. So I refuse to play into the histrionics of negotiating with people who cannot control their emotions and lack basic social skills.

Saying that becoming emotional is a negotiating tactic...is just saying it's manipulative behavior. I don't want to spend a bunch of hours of my life every week with people who cannot regulate their emotions and rely on manipulation tactics, ya know? It's different when it's a sales negotiation like buying a car. All you have to do is get up and leave when someone tries that nonsense.

ETA: I should've addressed other points in your reply. 1. employers aren't allowed to set policies that employees can't talk about their pay. Of course they don't want people comparing notes. That's an employer I don't want to work with, however. 2. employers got PPP loans during Covid and as long as they kept people on payroll don't have to pay those loans back. I have zero sympathy for businesses because many were bailed out. 3. As an independent contractor I charge my clients a set rate and they either pay it or they don't but it is TRANSPARENT and I don't charge one client more than another. There is no negotiation. At this job I left, everyone received the same benefits as far as health/dental/vision insurance. Why is the base pay different? The bonus structure is the same as well. And if they're going to make the base pay different for each buyer, then things like experience, pertinent degrees, and track records should be used as factors in the pay scale equation.

 

[kenny]

You may ask how do I know the above?

My SO of 13 years clued me in to help me get ahead.
He was a Mensa member and earned his Masters Degree in record time, and VP of very large manufacturing company.

 

[kenny]

I 100% agree women are screwed over ... which makes it even more important to fight back by learning the negotiating ropes.

 

[monarch64]

I 100% agree women are screwed over ... which makes it even more important to fight back by learning the negotiating ropes.

Ok, I'm going to disagree with you respectfully. You may be say this is just how the world is. I refuse to play the game of fighting back the way you're implying--to get as emotional as the person who thinks they're in power. Men have used scare tactics and weaponized their anger to keep women quiet for ages and ages. I drop the rope. I don't play that game. And who wins here? The woman who doesn't have a heart attack at 65 because she's kept her wits and sanity about her rather than blow up like a toddler having a temper tantrum...

 

[monarch64]

"Things are the way they are because they've always been this way" doesn't fly with me.

 

[kenny]

I'm discussing on how it is.
You're discussing on how it should be.

We're both right.

 

[kenny]

Also, I'm not defending the way it is, or saying it's right.

It IS right in terms of a business maximizing profits, and making shareholders happy.

 

[monarch64]

Also, I'm not defending the way it is, or saying it's right.

It IS right in terms of a business maximizing profits, and making shareholders happy.

I hear you on a social level and I appreciate you saying that.

I disagree that it's right as far as maximizing profits. Things have shifted dramatically as far as the workforce and how younger generations respond to things and expect to be treated.

Having worked with everyone from gen Z to the Silent Gen, I see that there is a very different attitude, expectation, and level of satisfaction, and threshold for leaving a job, and the bar sits right around the 45-50-year-old mark. The latter and boomers, the silent gen believe in making sure the business is profitable at their own expense. The former believe in the business counting on investing in its employees consequentially making the business profitable. In other words, younger people expect to be treated well and will in turn put forth effort. Older people expect to prove themselves and have the business treat them according to how much productivity/profit they're able to supply.

ETA: I understand what you're saying about shareholders. In my particular case there are no shareholders. This is a privately owned company.

 

[yssie]

Then HE went into sort of a hissy fit and starting flailing around making lots of excuses and not offering any solutions. Problem Solving 101 tells me personally that he could've just said, well, didn't mean for that to be the case, let's try to get this resolved. Nope. I calmly handed over my keys and let him know I'd be available for any questions but that all work was caught up and they should have plenty of time to find a replacement before a big buying trip in November.

I have four words: F***ing good for you.

He offered you what he did because he hoped to take advantage of you.

You showing him you won't stand for it will make him think twice before trying to take advantage of anyone else.


FWIW there are very few women who do what I do. My coworkers and I are very open about salaries, and management is fully aware that we dicuss our pay. And maybe because of that - we're all about equal, certainly in line for our positions and tenure. I wouldn't give my time and effort to a company that wished it any other way.

 

[monarch64]

I have four words: F***ing good for you.

He offered you what he did because he hoped to take advantage of you.

You showing him you won't stand for it will make him think twice before trying to take advantage of anyone else.


FWIW there are very few women who do what I do. My coworkers and I are very open about salaries, and management is fully aware that we dicuss our pay. And maybe because of that - we're all about equal, certainly in line for our positions and tenure. I wouldn't give my time and effort to a company that wished it any other way.

Thanks, Yssie. (And you are welcome, from one woman to another! I cannot in good conscience not say anything when I see men behaving badly, which is exactly what happened in my situation.)

You're right about him trying to take advantage. I know damn well he thought I'd never find out what he and the other guy were making because of the veil of secrecy he and the owner had agreed upon. What some think are still common business practices are no longer acceptable business practices, contrary to their beliefs. With the advent of social media, the information age, whatever you want to call it, people have access to any and everything regarding their potential employer and job situation and they are no longer afraid to call out unfair practices or illegal policies (if they are in a position to do so!) He didn't count on that with me because he'd never met me, and apparently no one had told him that I wasn't a weak person.

I've run into more than my share of coworkers, men and women, who are either shady or bullies. I have never played their game. I have put up with abuse until I've had my ducks in a row to leave, and then I leave. More often than not, the abuser has been let go. Back to Kenny's point about bottom lines and profits and shareholders: better to be proactive than reactive, save the company from lawsuits, and stop allowing ridiculous behavior in either a corporate or private setting.

I come from a long line of small business owners. I know what works and what doesn't. I thought I'd come in and help this business because a. I was flattered they wanted me back, and b. I knew I could bolster the business' success with my talent. It's entirely too bad and a complete detriment to them that they were not proactive enough to pay me what they knew I was worth in the first place. Employers really need to get their sh*t together. Employees just aren't dealing with nonsense anymore and they know their rights.

 

[yssie]

Thanks, Yssie. (And you are welcome, from one woman to another! I cannot in good conscience not say anything when I see men behaving badly, which is exactly what happened in my situation.)

You're right about him trying to take advantage. I know damn well he thought I'd never find out what he and the other guy were making because of the veil of secrecy he and the owner had agreed upon. What some think are still common business practices are no longer acceptable business practices, contrary to their beliefs. With the advent of social media, the information age, whatever you want to call it, people have access to any and everything regarding their potential employer and job situation and they are no longer afraid to call out unfair practices or illegal policies (if they are in a position to do so!) He didn't count on that with me because he'd never met me, and apparently no one had told him that I wasn't a weak person.

I've run into more than my share of coworkers, men and women, who are either shady or bullies. I have never played their game. I have put up with abuse until I've had my ducks in a row to leave, and then I leave. More often than not, the abuser has been let go. Back to Kenny's point about bottom lines and profits and shareholders: better to be proactive than reactive, save the company from lawsuits, and stop allowing ridiculous behavior in either a corporate or private setting.

I come from a long line of small business owners. I know what works and what doesn't. I thought I'd come in and help this business because a. I was flattered they wanted me back, and b. I knew I could bolster the business' success with my talent. It's entirely too bad and a complete detriment to them that they were not proactive enough to pay me what they knew I was worth in the first place. Employers really need to get their sh*t together. Employees just aren't dealing with nonsense anymore and they know their rights.

I couldn't agree more. As you observed in your first post - you gave him the opportunity discuss and resolve this reasonably. He apparently decided to throw a tantrum. His lack of social and professional ethic - and his inability to control his temper - shouldn't be your problems


Edit - I wrote more in this post but deleted as it's a bit too personal for a public forum. I've been very lucky to have always worked in supportive and organically diverse environents.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Good for you! It seems like employers consider it almost like a game of what they can get away with. You made it clear you were not a player, if more people refused then maybe they would realize that it is to everyone’s benefit to have equal pay.

 

[Karl_K]

ugh sorry this happened to you.
Bravo for not putting up with it.

 

[Elizabeth35]

If this employer is not a good fit (and it sounds like it is not) then you need to perhaps work with a bigger company. Research average pay for your experience, education, company size, industry and region. Use that while negotiating your starting pay.
It is especially important to negotiate for the best starting salary possible as each raise compounds how well you negotiated. Alternatively, after working for 6-12 months and performing well---ask for a meeting with your manager and ask what you can do to get a title change or raise.
And men, on average, are more comfortable negotiating for (and getting) higher starting salary.
So be ready to negotiate with research on pay in your toolbox.

 

[Austina]

Good for you! I’m glad you stuck to your principles. I had a similar experience years ago, when the fiance of the bosses daughter came to work at the company. He spent his entire time on the phone to his friends, which is how I overheard that he was getting paid the same as me. I promptly pointed out that there was no comparison between what I was doing and the amount of work I generated, to him chatting to his friends and getting paid for it. Fortunately, they realised who was more valuable to their company, I got a pay rise, and he got the boot!

 

[dk168]

Kind of related, however, please scroll past if it is not.

When I started my professional life in the 80s, I was working as a HCP in UK's National Health Service (NHS) where everyone knew what everyone else was getting in terms of salary, as the pay scale was published and open knowledge.

A job role would be assigned a band of x number of grades to allow for variation in knowledge and experience. Every year, the post holder would automatically get a pay rise of y grades, etc...

There was no noticeable difference in salary between male or female post holder for the same job role in different hospitals and/or locations.

When I left and moved into the private sector, in early 90s, shortly after starting my job, I was asked by one of my co-workers what I was earning, and I told her without thinking much about it.

A couple of months later during my probation review with my boss, I was asked why I disclosed my salary to my co-worker. So I told him I thought it would be like in the NHS when everyone knew what everyone else was earning etc...

I still remember his response to this day.

"When communications like those relating to salary were marked "Private and Confidential" it should remain as such. I do not expect this to happen again."

It turned out as I was the newest recruit, I was offered a higher salary than those in the same post who had been with the company for longer, as they received less pay rise compared with the NHS.

My co-worker took it up with my boss, along with others in the same role in different locations, and it caused him grief.

Since then, I had learnt never to talk about salary and what I am earning with anyone, as it is a very thorny subject.

Personally, I fully support equal pay for a job role with the same responsibilities, duties and number of reportees.

DK

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,
If the man you spoke to is a new hire, why would you expect him to raise your salary to be the same as the younger man who is also a new hire. I doubt he has the authority. When he hired you the owner gave him a range, which is not unusual for a job spec. He also likes that he is paid more.

You liked this job, so I would contact the owner and try to work out a new deal. Keep your kool even if the owner doesn't.

Some of this mish-mash is due to the inexperience of your colleagues,

Annette

 

[yssie]

It may be different in different parts of the world? In the US employees’ rights to talk about salary outside the office are legally protected… And in the US employee transparency is the only thing that keeps corporations accountable!

It’s a difficult subject only until everyone chooses to talk about it anyway. Once everyone chooses to talk about it everything changes for the better

I am very pro salary transparency!

 

[Elizabeth35]

I think that women need to understand that we have to advocate for ourselves.
In many (most?) industries in the US, pay is negotiated.

Know what your value is, research comparable pay and be ready to negotiate during the interview process.
Also take time annually to do a sanity check on your role and responsibilities, additional skills and experience and validate that you are still compensated appropriately. If not, open up a dialogue with your manager and see what can be done.

I wish there was more transparency and I do think it is improving. And we can thank the younger folks for pushing for that---it is long overdue.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

years ago i went to work for a large Australian hardwear store -in fact part of the biggest conglomerate in the southern hemisphere
in my dept i had more experience working and selling said products than every other person combined yet i earned the least pay
i am a very private person at work and i do not discouse pay with others
i belave one should be payed what one is actaully worth, not becaue someone can blow their own trumpet loudest

i did not know nor had the confidence to negoiate ( excuse spelling -rest assure all my job aplications are spell checked)

its not fare
i was completly taken advantage of
sometimes life just isnt fare

good for you @monarch64
you would not have been happy there after this
but it done to a learning experience
which (after 14 years employment) i finnally did )

 

[monarch64]

@Daisys and Diamonds in the United States we have had the Equal Pay Act in place since 1963. Unfortunately a lot of companies still participate in wage discrimination. Patriarchy and capitalism is what it comes down to. After many negative experiences working for and with men over my last 28 years of active employment (by active I mean earning taxable income—I started working in family businesses at age 7) I have just decided I would rather not work with them at all. I have been self-employed the past 5.5 years. I pick and choose the clients I want to work with and it’s all remote work so I rarely have to interact with people aside from emails and direct messages.

The mantrums I have witnessed and the abuse I’ve been subjected to (taking blame for problems I had nothing to do with, etc) definitely contributed to this latest decision of mine to simply drop the rope and walk away. I may decide to open a similar business at some point. I hesitate, though, because to be perfectly honest, I wouldn’t want to hire men and then I’d be the one discriminating. I have just found them to be a liability, not an asset, in so many business settings. It’s sad.

 

[monarch64]

I think that women need to understand that we have to advocate for ourselves.
In many (most?) industries in the US, pay is negotiated.

Know what your value is, research comparable pay and be ready to negotiate during the interview process.
Also take time annually to do a sanity check on your role and responsibilities, additional skills and experience and validate that you are still compensated appropriately. If not, open up a dialogue with your manager and see what can be done.

I wish there was more transparency and I do think it is improving. And we can thank the younger folks for pushing for that---it is long overdue.

You’re absolutely right, and thank you for sharing that advice. Women definitely need to hear that and advocate for themselves.

I want to say that I had already been through a similar situation 10 years ago with the same company. I found out I was making less than the guy who was doing my same job, same title and all, and I brought it up to the manager (at the time we had a GM; that is not the case now). It was immediately resolved and I was bumped up to what the other person was making. I just expected (wrongly so) that this time there would be no issue. That’ll teach me.

 

[monarch64]

Good for you! It seems like employers consider it almost like a game of what they can get away with. You made it clear you were not a player, if more people refused then maybe they would realize that it is to everyone’s benefit to have equal pay.

I definitely happened to have the power in this case and I’m proud of my decision to bounce. I refuse to participate in these reindeer games and allow people to continue to think they can get away with this crap without repercussions. It really sucks that this happened but if I stayed and played into the bs I would’ve been miserable. It really did seem like a game!

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

@Daisys and Diamonds in the United States we have had the Equal Pay Act in place since 1963. Unfortunately a lot of companies still participate in wage discrimination. Patriarchy and capitalism is what it comes down to. After many negative experiences working for and with men over my last 28 years of active employment (by active I mean earning taxable income—I started working in family businesses at age 7) I have just decided I would rather not work with them at all. I have been self-employed the past 5.5 years. I pick and choose the clients I want to work with and it’s all remote work so I rarely have to interact with people aside from emails and direct messages.

The mantrums I have witnessed and the abuse I’ve been subjected to (taking blame for problems I had nothing to do with, etc) definitely contributed to this latest decision of mine to simply drop the rope and walk away. I may decide to open a similar business at some point. I hesitate, though, because to be perfectly honest, I wouldn’t want to hire men and then I’d be the one discriminating. I have just found them to be a liability, not an asset, in so many business settings. It’s sad.

you know you may be onto something
until my current empolyment i would have maybe not agreeed with you
but at our little branch we are all lady shop keepers (the men can do the baking but we will sell it) and i think under the leadership of our shop manager its very harmonouse and a rather enjoyable place to work where laughter and hard work go hand in hand

best of luck with your future endevours

 

[monarch64]

ugh sorry this happened to you.
Bravo for not putting up with it.

Thanks, Karl. That means a lot.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I definitely happened to have the power in this case and I’m proud of my decision to bounce. I refuse to participate in these reindeer games and allow people to continue to think they can get away with this crap without repercussions. It really sucks that this happened but if I stayed and played into the bs I would’ve been miserable. It really did seem like a game!

you are my hero of the day

 

[monarch64]

If this employer is not a good fit (and it sounds like it is not) then you need to perhaps work with a bigger company. Research average pay for your experience, education, company size, industry and region. Use that while negotiating your starting pay.
It is especially important to negotiate for the best starting salary possible as each raise compounds how well you negotiated. Alternatively, after working for 6-12 months and performing well---ask for a meeting with your manager and ask what you can do to get a title change or raise.
And men, on average, are more comfortable negotiating for (and getting) higher starting salary.
So be ready to negotiate with research on pay in your toolbox.

My situation is somewhat unique. I’m in a smaller city and will be staying here until my daughter graduates high school/makes a decision about college in ~8 years. The company is sort of one-of-a-kind although it is considered the retail industry. Any larger settings are corporate and having been there, done that in Indianapolis and Chicago years ago, I can say that larger retailers do not exist here besides Target and some mid-level mall stores, and do not offer the same opportunities such as buying at a local store level. It’s just kind of a weird spot to be in for what I do. When I went to college and got my degree, I planned on making my career the most important thing in my life and did not intend to marry nor have a child. I never thought I’d end up back in a smaller city with fewer opportunities—even our Macy’s is gone now.

Several years ago I used my writing talent to segue into freelancing and have had enough success doing that to support myself. I was also fortunate not to get totally screwed either time I divorced, and then I received inheritance that allows me certain freedoms and gives me room to make choices I might not otherwise make now. But your words are sound and very useful. Back when I was working for big corporate stores I was great at negotiating and always succeeded.

This time it isn’t about the money. Even if I had been bumped up to equal, I also would’ve moved into the next tax bracket. It would have been a wash. My issue was the obvious gender-based wage discrimination. The pay scale isn’t transparent and they want it that way. I disagree with that and their practice of wage discrimination so that’s that. I don’t want to work with men who don’t consider it important that their female coworker doesn’t make as much as they do. “Pay commensurate with experience” is BS—I have more experience than the two of them combined AND worked the same job while pregnant then with a baby and pumping on my breaks. Running circles around others who aren’t as capable and are making more is demoralizing af. I won’t do it again.