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Legal opinion re: return on rental deposit

I wouldn''t be vindictive personally. Just let her know about the statute and hopefully she will then respond by refunding you the entire deposit, which is legally what she owes you at this point. If not, then you can go to court. If she makes you take her to court I think it''s perfectly reasonable to file double damages. But I do think you should give her a chance to make it right before filing. Just my .02.
 
Date: 6/20/2010 2:03:45 PM
Author: neatfreak
I wouldn''t be vindictive personally. Just let her know about the statute and hopefully she will then respond by refunding you the entire deposit, which is legally what she owes you at this point. If not, then you can go to court. If she makes you take her to court I think it''s perfectly reasonable to file double damages. But I do think you should give her a chance to make it right before filing. Just my .02.
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How long should I wait? I had said I''d go to the clerks'' office on Monday and want to demonstrate that I''m serious by doing so. Should I give her one week since I didn''t specifically say this Monday and since I had contacted her over the weekend (even though she responded over this same weekend)?
 
Date: 6/20/2010 1:02:41 PM
Author: thing2of2
I couldn''t disagree more with Cehra. The landlord BROKE THE LAW, then tried to get out of the consequences (giving back your full deposit) by falsifying an email to you. Which, as it turns out, isn''t even legally admissible.


I would file for double the security deposit and let a judge decide what to do about it. At the very least, you''re entitled to your FULL deposit and not even your deposit less weeding costs.


Also, $1700 for weeding a lawn is absurd. I highly doubt she even got a quote from an actual landscaping company. She''s trying to screw you out of your deposit, just like the vast majority of landlords seem to do. It''s not your problem she broke the law.


ETA I also agree that this should teach her a lesson about her dishonesty. I doubt she''ll try to screw another tenant after being forced to pay you at least your entire deposit back, if not more. The double deposit penalty is obviously designed as a deterrent to landlords from screwing their tenants over. You didn''t make the law but I think you should definitely use it to your advantage.
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Feel the same way. You''re not twisting her arm, she was twisting yours.
 
Don''t wait. A) You don''t want to fall outside of a filing window. B) You probably want to get this all over this ASAP. Dragging it out just makes it even more of a PITA.
 
MC:

I''d give them a call and ask if they can meet you somewhere with a check for the full amount.

However, my guess is that they don''t have the money either....

If I were to file a lawsuit - go ahead and file for the maximum you can get. The judge may reduce it - but you will be no worse off.

Have a great day,

Perry
 
Date: 6/20/2010 4:10:16 PM
Author: perry
MC:

I''d give them a call and ask if they can meet you somewhere with a check for the full amount.

However, my guess is that they don''t have the money either....

If I were to file a lawsuit - go ahead and file for the maximum you can get. The judge may reduce it - but you will be no worse off.

Have a great day,

Perry
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I''ve called her a few times since and she isn''t picking up her phone. If she doesn''t have the money, wouldn''t the court garnish her wages? She works at a large coorporation her in WA so there is no way she can hide her income.
 
Date: 6/20/2010 7:28:24 PM
Author: MC


Date: 6/20/2010 4:10:16 PM
Author: perry
MC:

I'd give them a call and ask if they can meet you somewhere with a check for the full amount.

However, my guess is that they don't have the money either....

If I were to file a lawsuit - go ahead and file for the maximum you can get. The judge may reduce it - but you will be no worse off.

Have a great day,

Perry
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I've called her a few times since and she isn't picking up her phone. If she doesn't have the money, wouldn't the court garnish her wages? She works at a large coorporation her in WA so there is no way she can hide her income.
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From what I've heard about small claims court, no, they don't go as far as to garnish wages - they simply make the judgement. My mom won a case in small claims court, and never saw a dime of the money. Apparently, it happens all of the time.

Also, I'm not sure about the statutes in the state that you live in, but in the state I live, the landlord doesn't have to show you "proof" of what they're going to use your deposit towards- they just have to supply you with an itemized list. I know it's frustrating, but that's just the way it works.
 
Date: 6/20/2010 9:36:05 PM
Author: lilyfoot

Date: 6/20/2010 7:28:24 PM
Author: MC



Date: 6/20/2010 4:10:16 PM
Author: perry
MC:

I''d give them a call and ask if they can meet you somewhere with a check for the full amount.

However, my guess is that they don''t have the money either....

If I were to file a lawsuit - go ahead and file for the maximum you can get. The judge may reduce it - but you will be no worse off.

Have a great day,

Perry
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I''ve called her a few times since and she isn''t picking up her phone. If she doesn''t have the money, wouldn''t the court garnish her wages? She works at a large coorporation her in WA so there is no way she can hide her income.
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From what I''ve heard about small claims court, no, they don''t go as far as to garnish wages - they simply make the judgement. My mom won a case in small claims court, and never saw a dime of the money. Apparently, it happens all of the time.

Also, I''m not sure about the statutes in the state that you live in, but in the state I live, the landlord doesn''t have to show you ''proof'' of what they''re going to use your deposit towards- they just have to supply you with an itemized list. I know it''s frustrating, but that''s just the way it works.
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I just checked my county website. It says that if the defendent doesn''t appeal or pay w/in 30 days, I can submit a written request to the district court for the judgement to enter the civil docket and from that I can "proceed with a method of collection such as wage garnishment or funds from bank account." Law also allows for plaintiff to request increase in judgement to include all additional costs incurred.
 
File your claim, MC, and make sure the service processor drops a copy of the small claims summons and complaint on your LL''s doorstep (work or home) and personally serves it on her butt. Yes, you will have to front the cost of it, but you want to make sure she is served so she doesn''t show up claiming she never was properly served.

At that point, with a lawsuit against her, I''m sure she''ll be forthcoming with the deposit. If she isn''t, she faces a judgment, which will stay on her credit record. She''s better off paying. If she''s being obstinate, show up at your hearing, with the code, and tell your side of the story. And point out that email does not appear to be an acceptable mode of communication under the code. Be prepared to show when you moved out. And, ask the Judge for your costs incurred in filing the claims (filing fees, service of process fees) and any applicable double damages as mandated under the code. In California, small claims court do not allow people to bring in their own attorneys. I don''t know if that''s the case in Washington, but if it isn''t then she won''t have someone to advocate on her behalf, which may be more beneficial to you.

And yes, if she doesn''t pay, you get a judgment entered, then you proceed with the steps to have the sheriff garnish her wages. A lot of people don''t seem to get that - judgment only means the court sided with you, it doesn''t force someone to pay in small claims court land! I''m sure the local Bar Association for the particular county in Washington may guide you to LL/Tenant organizations who can walk you through the garnishment process, so that you can do it right the first time.

Good luck!
 
Date: 6/21/2010 3:56:25 PM
Author: Yimmers
. And point out that email does not appear to be an acceptable mode of communication under the code. Be prepared to show when you moved out. And, ask the Judge for your costs incurred in filing the claims (filing fees, service of process fees) and any applicable double damages as mandated under the code. In California, small claims court do not allow people to bring in their own attorneys. I don''t know if that''s the case in Washington, but if it isn''t then she won''t have someone to advocate on her behalf, which may be more beneficial to you.

And yes, if she doesn''t pay, you get a judgment entered, then you proceed with the steps to have the sheriff garnish her wages. A lot of people don''t seem to get that - judgment only means the court sided with you, it doesn''t force someone to pay in small claims court land! I''m sure the local Bar Association for the particular county in Washington may guide you to LL/Tenant organizations who can walk you through the garnishment process, so that you can do it right the first time.

Good luck!
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Okay, she *finally* replied by answering her phone. She says she didn''t have to contact me by first-class mail because we "set a pattern," by using email as our primary form of communication and that her (claimed) email on the 9th was sufficient. Thoughts on this?
 
My thought is that the statute lays out what is acceptable and she didn't abide by it. The law is the default rule, and unless you explicitly contracted around it (which some places will let you do and some won't -- not sure what the rule is in WA), she can't unilaterally change that. It's sounding more and more like she's intentionally stonewalling you. It's too bad things have to get ugly, but landlords who refuse to follow the law give the whole business a bad name, and it's not fair to the really good ones out there or to the tenants they rip off.

ETA: definitely check to see if there is a landlord/tenant organization around you if you feel like you need help, BUT take what they say with a grain of salt. I did landlord/tenant mediation for the court system here as part of my schoolwork, and the local tenant rights organization told people some real whoppers. We had a terrible time trying to straighten people out regarding their "rights" and the "law" because of the bad advice they got. There are, of course, some great advocacy groups out there, but I think you're best off by sticking to the statutory requirements and the fact that she didn't do what the law mandates.
 
The law is pretty specific. Unless she finds a statute that states otherwise-it needed to happen by first class mail or it didn't happen. It is her burden of proof in this situation and a printout of an email won't cut it. Especially if you come prepared with a "real" forwarded email and then her fake one.

I would just be polite, but firm, and indicate that the law states specifically that it must happen by first class mail. And if you do not receive a check by the end of the week for the full amount you will be proceeding to small claims court where you will be filing for double damages and court costs.
 
Okay, thanks again. another question. . can she use the fact that I gave notice by email as defense against her not sending a letter to me?

Also, I was reading through the laws and found that she was suppose to provide the name of the bank (or trust) the money was to be held in and she didn''t do that, nor did she provide a receipt for that amount. I take it that this will help me? That this shows she had no intention of keeping my deposit secure. The only place the $1800 deposit is noted is in the lease agreement.

Thanks a lot for you help! When I talked to her on the phone I was so nervous!
 
MC, did she also send you a check for the interest earned on the deposit amount while it was in the bank? She''s supposed to. LLs aren''t supposed to spend deposit money, it goes in escrow and they''re supposed to send you the interest on an annual basis.
 
MC she is messing with you. Be careful not to acknowledge the legitimacy of the ''forwarded'' email she did send you, since you did not receive the original and doubt the forwarded one is legitimate. She''s trying to game you into agreeing that her supposed email was valid notice. Just ignore all of her dancing and say, I want my full rental deposit returned by X date, otherwise I will file for double plus court fees. Make X date extremely soon, because she is not playing fair here. Forging emails and such. Not a lawyer, don''t know the law, but this just stinks. Hope the LL decides court is too much hassle and just pays you.

Also, I totally think that double damages is appropriate if you are forced to go to court to collect your original deposit. Otherwise cranky crooked landlords would just keep all deposits and hope that some people find it too much bother to go to court to get them back. There has to be some deterrent involved to keep them more honest.
 
Date: 6/22/2010 9:37:01 AM
Author: Hudson_Hawk
MC, did she also send you a check for the interest earned on the deposit amount while it was in the bank? She''s supposed to. LLs aren''t supposed to spend deposit money, it goes in escrow and they''re supposed to send you the interest on an annual basis.
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In the states I''ve lived in, the deposit only started accruing interest after the first year, so if you were only there one year, then you didn''t get any interest. Not sure how long MC has been there or what the rules are in her state...
 
Date: 6/22/2010 11:19:45 AM
Author: cara
MC she is messing with you. Be careful not to acknowledge the legitimacy of the ''forwarded'' email she did send you, since you did not receive the original and doubt the forwarded one is legitimate. She''s trying to game you into agreeing that her supposed email was valid notice. Just ignore all of her dancing and say, I want my full rental deposit returned by X date, otherwise I will file for double plus court fees. Make X date extremely soon, because she is not playing fair here. Forging emails and such. Not a lawyer, don''t know the law, but this just stinks. Hope the LL decides court is too much hassle and just pays you.

Also, I totally think that double damages is appropriate if you are forced to go to court to collect your original deposit. Otherwise cranky crooked landlords would just keep all deposits and hope that some people find it too much bother to go to court to get them back. There has to be some deterrent involved to keep them more honest.
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Ditto this. I wouldn''t argue with her anymore-just tell her you want the $ back or you''re going to file for double the deposit and court fees.
 
Date: 6/21/2010 11:25:11 PM
Author: MC
Okay, thanks again. another question. . can she use the fact that I gave notice by email as defense against her not sending a letter to me?


Also, I was reading through the laws and found that she was suppose to provide the name of the bank (or trust) the money was to be held in and she didn''t do that, nor did she provide a receipt for that amount. I take it that this will help me? That this shows she had no intention of keeping my deposit secure. The only place the $1800 deposit is noted is in the lease agreement.


Thanks a lot for you help! When I talked to her on the phone I was so nervous!
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Look through the statute again and see if there''s any language about means of giving notice. I doubt here will be, but I''m on my phone and can''t look right now. Assuming the statute is silent, you could give notice any way that''s acceptable to her. It''s only when the statute sets out how things MUST be done (like notification of deductions and/or return of deposit) that it should matter.

As far as documentation, put everything that proves she did something wrong into a folder, neatly organized. More is better (within reason). If you get to the court stage, the judge might not ask for everything you bring, but if he asks for something that you don''t have with you, that''s not good. The judges I used to work with were super busy, and the person who had everything neat, organized, and with them usually came out of the hearing better off than the one who didn''t.

And ditto Cara -- just keep citing the statute and don''t get caught up in her games.
 
Okay, she *finally* replied by answering her phone. She says she didn''t have to contact me by first-class mail because we ''set a pattern,'' by using email as our primary form of communication and that her (claimed) email on the 9th was sufficient. Thoughts on this?



I looked up RCW 59.18.280, which happens to be modified as of 6/10/10. Don''t worry, it''s still basically the same language as before. It looks like they''re just changing the gendered terms. It still has the same statutory language.

Tell her under no condition that "e-mail" as your primary form of communication "sets a pattern" and therefore her alleged e-mail to you on the 9th was sufficient. PLAIN LANGUAGE OF THE STATUTE REQUIRES her to contact you via first class mail. I see NOTHING in the statute that says "e-mail" creates a pattern.

The others are right. She is playing you. State that if she does not send you a check via overnight express mail by tomorrow you''ll be filing your claim. And seek double damages. I think it''s a travesty that she''s trying to take advantage of you like this.

This is the link to the code. As I said, it''s been altered, but only to make it gender neutral (he/she).

RCW
 
If you want legal help in WA, call these guys up and see what they can do.

Legal Help<a


This is a basic LL-Tenant pamphlet from the Washington State Bar

Pamphlet


I would suggest contacting the legal assistance program and run through what you have told us. They will probably give you some guidance as to what you need to do and why she''s likely in the wrong.

MC, As for the e-mail question you have referred to, your rental agreement may state how you were to notify the LL about your intention to leave.

If I were in your shoes, I would still regard how I notified the LL of my intention to quit tenancy as irrelevant, as the statute is clear about what duties the LL has to return my deposit.
 
One more thing, if she claims this e-mail thing is her defense, you can think about asking her for the code or caselaw which supports her claim.

While it will be your burden to prove your case at small claims court, it is her burden to prove her affirmative defense of "e-mail communication sets a pattern which overrides Washington State Code."

Finally, I found this online while searching the UW School of Law''s website - it linked me to law help in Washington.

Legal Resources

Law Help


Good luck MC!
 
MC, I''m so glad you''re fighting her on this. I had a landlord that did the exact same thing, only we didn''t get the benfit of a walk through, though I had documented pics of the house before we moved in and immediately after with all EXIF data in tact in the pictures. She claims that she had to replace the entire house''s carpet, but I was never notified of the expense, certainly not by certified mail, and I had the carpets steam cleaned and they were in better condition when I left than when I moved out.

At the time, I had just gone through the hassle of dealing with closing on our new construction home, and at that point, I just wanted to be left alone and didn''t want to fight with her anymore over our deposit, so I chalked it up to a lesson learned. I''ve regretted not taking her to small claims for almost 4 years now.

I wish I had asked PS''s opinion back then, so please keep us updated on the progress of this.
 
MC:

She is playing you....

You need to be very direct with her:

Pay my deposit in full right now in accordance with the state statutes - or tell a judge why you are not willing to follow the law; and that you will file for all damages and expenses allowed under the law.

You can also collect the serving fee.

Do not engage in any more discussion. Also, you need to convince yourself right now that you will indeed file this unless you get the deposit back right now - with no further discussion. If she senses you are willing to discuss more she will keep stringing you on.

Also, state laws vary on security deposit interest. You may not be entitled to any. Let the judge sort it out.

If you go to court: A line you will need to be able to state as the question is likely going to come up if she shows up for court: is that we had a verbal agreement that she could hire someone to weed the property and deduct it from my deposit. I was expecting it would be in the range of $100 - $200 (or whatever... and you can get an awful lot of yard work done for $100. I can get my lawn cut, shrubbery trimmed, sidewalks edged, window- wells weeded, etc for about $80). Then say nothing more on the subject.

While you can''t predict exactly what the judge might rule.... It would not surprise me if the ruling was 2x the deposit (allowed for damages) + filing, court, and serving fees minus $100 for weeding.... (that way the judge could tell the landlord that they got paid a fair value for the weeding service).

I wish you the best with this.

Perry
 
Hi everyone,

Through this thread, I've learned *so much* about tenant-landlord laws! We're moving into a house sometime in the fall and will be renting out a downstairs 'apartment' to a tenant while we live upstairs, and I'm all prepped on proceedure, including putting the deposit in a trust account and everything.

So, my landlady contacted me about my offer to settle for $1000. My thought was that was fair because the yard does need work and we did put cat doors in. I wasn't sure if she would go with the offer, so I had read through all the documentation she gave me and there was NO proof she ever put the deposit in a seperate account so I couuld hold that against her if absolutely necessary.

Her response to all this is that she's going to give us the $1K. I talked to two friends and both felt that this could turn into a lengthy legal battle and it could take forever to collect any more money .

What is very odd is that rather than responding to my previous emails, the LL *again* fwd'd her newest response to me and the to: and from: header part was the way other fwds are, so she absolutely DID forge that questionable fwd! Ugh.

I'm happy to have gotten something back without having to totally bleed her dry.

I drove by the house and this is silly, but I didn't want to tresspass so I held my camera up over the fence and took a few pictures. She has already begun the yard work, so I cannot figure out how her second quote is even valid. Get this, now she's saying it's $2200 but that includes bark and other work she wouldn't have charged us for anyway. She should have gotten a quote simply for weeding, but I doubt she did that with either!

Anyhow, I'm well versed on RCWs and will be very careful to use first-class mail for EVERYTHING!
 
MC,

I''m happy to hear that your situation has resolved. If you feel this is a fair resolution then this is a good for you. Yes, you probably would have won, but collecting is always another story. She sounds very untrustworthy and her ignorance of the law will come back to bite her on the butt one day. So I''m sure karma will get her in the future.

I would confirm that in writing that this $1000 resolves and settles all claims about the deposit and your tenancy. As a practice, anything that you want to use in the future, put down in writing.

:)
 
Date: 6/23/2010 1:09:56 PM
Author: MC
Hi everyone,

Through this thread, I''ve learned *so much* about tenant-landlord laws! We''re moving into a house sometime in the fall and will be renting out a downstairs ''apartment'' to a tenant while we live upstairs, and I''m all prepped on proceedure, including putting the deposit in a trust account and everything.

So, my landlady contacted me about my offer to settle for $1000. My thought was that was fair because the yard does need work and we did put cat doors in. I wasn''t sure if she would go with the offer, so I had read through all the documentation she gave me and there was NO proof she ever put the deposit in a seperate account so I couuld hold that against her if absolutely necessary.

Her response to all this is that she''s going to give us the $1K. I talked to two friends and both felt that this could turn into a lengthy legal battle and it could take forever to collect any more money .

What is very odd is that rather than responding to my previous emails, the LL *again* fwd''d her newest response to me and the to: and from: header part was the way other fwds are, so she absolutely DID forge that questionable fwd! Ugh.

I''m happy to have gotten something back without having to totally bleed her dry.

I drove by the house and this is silly, but I didn''t want to tresspass so I held my camera up over the fence and took a few pictures. She has already begun the yard work, so I cannot figure out how her second quote is even valid. Get this, now she''s saying it''s $2200 but that includes bark and other work she wouldn''t have charged us for anyway. She should have gotten a quote simply for weeding, but I doubt she did that with either!

Anyhow, I''m well versed on RCWs and will be very careful to use first-class mail for EVERYTHING!
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I would definitely use certified mail, or another form that requires a signature, for extra protection.
 
Date: 6/23/2010 1:22:22 PM
Author: Yimmers
MC,

I''m happy to hear that your situation has resolved. If you feel this is a fair resolution then this is a good for you. Yes, you probably would have won, but collecting is always another story. She sounds very untrustworthy and her ignorance of the law will come back to bite her on the butt one day. So I''m sure karma will get her in the future.

I would confirm that in writing that this $1000 resolves and settles all claims about the deposit and your tenancy. As a practice, anything that you want to use in the future, put down in writing.

:)
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Okay, will do!
 
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