Legal opinion re: return on rental deposit

[MichelleCarmen]

Okay, situation is we paid an $1800 deposit on a rental that we lived in just over a year. We moved out on June 1st and I had been checking my email daily to see if the landlord was going to let us know how much we''d get back.

Well, day 14 rolled around so I emailed her asking the status. I waited an entire week and then looked up the laws and found in WA that she had only 14 days to respond and that if she hadn''t by that date with either a refund or in writing why she wasn''t yet paying us back, she would be obligated to return the entire refund to us.

So after waiting that week, today I emailed her and quoted the WA State Bar Assoc. site quoting that she would have to return the entire amount. I also called and left a message. Of course now she responded saying she sent an email on the 9th saying that she wasn''t going to give us any money back.

She fwded the email she had sent, but the deal is it doesn''t look like a forward. It just looks like she wrote another letter below the new one and added in a fake header. Her name and email isn''t highlighted like the ones we get from everyone else.

I''m not sure if I can prove (or know for certain) that she has forged a fake fwd, but so the only thing is can an email be considered a legal form of writing when it comes to a landlord telling an renter they will not get refund back? Would that hold up in small claims court or would it not?

Thanks for advice.

 

[Kaleigh]

MC,
Oh what a pita. Did she say in her email why she wasn''t going to refund your deposit??

 

[Bunny007]

MC- I''m pretty sure an email can be used as evidence BUT, as with any evidence, it can be discredited.

I always wondered if the date on an email can be forged. I would simply compare it to other emails that have been forwarded to you and look for any differences. I bet if you look closely, you''ll find something looks off. Even if she didn''t forge the date (although it sounds like she did!), maybe she mispelled your email address? If it never reached you, then she still didn''t provide the appropriate notice. Best of luck! I''ve been in this situation before and it sucks.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Yeah, she said it would take $1745 to get the weeds pulled from the yard!

The thing is I cannot determine if the fwd she mailed is real. You know, when she left a phone message, I thought I must have missed the email and thought she was telling the truth, but now looking at it (eta - I mean the new one), it looks like a fake fwd.

I've tried calling about 25 attorney and rental agencies to see if they consider an email as a legal "written" explaination, but nobody is open on Sat.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 6/19/2010 5:44:00 PM
Author: Bunny007
MC- I''m pretty sure an email can be used as evidence BUT, as with any evidence, it can be discredited.

I always wondered if the date on an email can be forged. I would simply compare it to other emails that have been forwarded to you and look for any differences. I bet if you look closely, you''ll find something looks off. Even if she didn''t forge the date (although it sounds like she did!), maybe she mispelled your email address? If it never reached you, then she still didn''t provide the appropriate notice. Best of luck! I''ve been in this situation before and it sucks.

Yeah, I did compare others. I even sent fwds from other email accounts I have, and the fwds mostly have the names or emails of the original sender highlighted so they can be clicked on. Hers doesn''t.

Ugh!

1800 bucks. I got her message in the grocery store and almost started crying.

 

[iheartscience]

Did she do a final walk-through with you to check the condition of the house when you moved out? And was weed-pulling one of the conditions of your lease? In most rentals maintenance like that is the landlord''s responsibility. Second of all, no one in their right mind thinks weed-pulling costs $1800.

I probably wouldn''t reply to her until you consult a lawyer. And have your husband or a friend forward you an email so you can compare the real forward to her forward. Her faking a forward is ridiculous and sketchy and just laughable. Of course you would have gotten an email she sent, particularly if you had corresponded by email before.

I wouldn''t panic-seriously, she''s just trying to get out of paying you back because she doesn''t want to cough up the $1800. I really think you''ll get it back either through legal action or just threatening legal action. She wants you to not pursue this and is assuming you won''t, but of course you will.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 6/19/2010 5:55:33 PM
Author: thing2of2
Did she do a final walk-through with you to check the condition of the house when you moved out? And was weed-pulling one of the conditions of your lease? In most rentals maintenance like that is the landlord's responsibility. Second of all, no one in their right mind thinks weed-pulling costs $1800.

I probably wouldn't reply to her until you consult a lawyer. And have your husband or a friend forward you an email so you can compare the real forward to her forward. Her faking a forward is ridiculous and sketchy and just laughable. Of course you would have gotten an email she sent, particularly if you had corresponded by email before.

I wouldn't panic-seriously, she's just trying to get out of paying you back because she doesn't want to cough up the $1800. I really think you'll get it back either through legal action or just threatening legal action. She wants you to not pursue this and is assuming you won't, but of course you will.

Yeah, I already sent a few fwds from other email accounts I have, and I am using a gmail account, so the format with that account is where the messages are stacked almost like a rollodex so you can see all the previous emails layered behind the newer ones. I would have seen it. I was looking for it *every day*. Plus, she only replied after I brought up wa state law. It only costs $39 to file and I'm going to call a mediator on Tuesday before resorting to small claims.

We did do a final walk-through and she said she needed to do an estimate on the yard (which we were expecting) and that she'd have to replace a door we put a cat door in and she stated that those were the only two problems (and that the yard was so much, that she'd have to replace the door out-of-pocket).

In all, we had expected to get about 1/2 that amount back b/c of the door and yard.

 

[iheartscience]

What was wrong with the yard? And was yard maintenance a condtion of your lease?

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 6/19/2010 6:09:44 PM
Author: thing2of2
What was wrong with the yard? And was yard maintenance a condtion of your lease?

The yard needed to be weeded. That is the only thing we didn't do before moving out. That, along with mowing the lawn, were what we agreeded on.

She clearly stated all else, such as prunning, etc., would be handled by a professional.

I made a huge mistake in not hiring someone to clean up the yard before we moved out. I could have hired high schoolers or somebody from CL who would charge $10 an hour. She must have called the most expensive place in a 50 mile radius.

 

[Bunny007]

In the state where I lived the landlord was required to itemize the repair costs deducted from the deposit and provide receipts and estimates to support those costs. Is there anything similar in your statute?

My guess is that you'll be able to resolve this, either through mediation or small claims court.

ETA: Maybe when she sees how seriously you're taking this, she'll be willing to give you a partial refund. Nealry 2k for weed pulling is just ridiculous.

 

[lulu]

I wouldn't bother paying a lawyer. You already know the law and assuming you have a Small Claims Court you can do this yourself. All of the forms are user friendly and you can probably read them online. If the e-mail is phony they would get hit with treble damages in some jurisdictions. The amount quoted for weeding is exorbitant. For that much $$$ I'll come and do it.

Before filing a lawsuit I'd confront them about the email and offer to settle for a more reasonable amount.

 

[waterlilly]

don't think a "forwarded" email is proof. anyone could forge one, it's pretty simple. i would absolutely call her bluff, tell her a forwarded email is not legally binding, tell her you want to see a screen capture of her "sent" mail showing the date and time of that email.

I don't believe "IN WRITING" includes emails when it comes to legal documents...maybe a lawyer can confirm here?!

 

[Octavia]

I looked up the WA statute (RCW 59.18.280) and it clearly states:

"The landlord complies with this section if the required statement or payment, or both, are deposited in the United States mail properly addressed with first-class postage prepaid within the fourteen days. The notice shall be delivered to the tenant personally or by mail to his or her last known address. If the landlord fails to give such statement together with any refund due the tenant within the time limits specified above he or she shall be liable to the tenant for the full amount of the deposit. The landlord is also barred in any action brought by the tenant to recover the deposit from asserting any claim or raising any defense for retaining any of the deposit unless the landlord shows that circumstances beyond the landlord's control prevented the landlord from providing the statement within the fourteen days or that the tenant abandoned the premises as defined in RCW 11 59.18.310. The court may in its discretion award up to two times the amount of the deposit for the intentional refusal of the landlord to give the statement or refund due."

So, from the plain language, I would surmise that an email (even a legitimate, non-falsified one) is not acceptable. I'd point this out to her, and if she still gives you a hard time, take her to small claims.

 

[tyty333]

MC...can we help you start shopping for a new $1800 ring? braclet? pendant???

 

[neatfreak]

Octavia is right-if that is the WA statute your LL is out of luck. Make sure to file for double damages since your state allows it! Many states allow this if the LL keeps your funds past the date she is allowed legally and WA does too. Make sure you file for it so you have a chance of getting it!

At this point she cannot even legally deduct the weeding. I volunteered at a tenant resource center for a number of years and we saw this thing all the time. Usually if you show the LL the documents and the statute she will just write you a check because she at that point should know she's screwed otherwise. Esp. if it's possible that she will end up paying court fees and double damages. If you have to go to small claims court bring copies of all relevant statutes, all documentation like the lease, and stick to the facts. No name calling, no crying, no nothing. The judge doesn't care and might hold it against you. Just stick to the facts and you will win.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 6/19/2010 7:26:55 PM
Author: Octavia
I looked up the WA statute (RCW 59.18.280) and it clearly states:

'The landlord complies with this section if the required statement or payment, or both, are deposited in the United States mail properly addressed with first-class postage prepaid within the fourteen days. The notice shall be delivered to the tenant personally or by mail to his or her last known address. If the landlord fails to give such statement together with any refund due the tenant within the time limits specified above he or she shall be liable to the tenant for the full amount of the deposit. The landlord is also barred in any action brought by the tenant to recover the deposit from asserting any claim or raising any defense for retaining any of the deposit unless the landlord shows that circumstances beyond the landlord's control prevented the landlord from providing the statement within the fourteen days or that the tenant abandoned the premises as defined in RCW 11 59.18.310. The court may in its discretion award up to two times the amount of the deposit for the intentional refusal of the landlord to give the statement or refund due.'

So, from the plain language, I would surmise that an email (even a legitimate, non-falsified one) is not acceptable. I'd point this out to her, and if she still gives you a hard time, take her to small claims.

Ahhhh! Yes! Thanks so much!!! I could kiss you for this! lol

I sent the link w/quote to her and told her flat out I will file in small claims court on Monday. I'm already going into town on Monday (have to take a ferry so going to the county courthouse is a longer trip - so luckily it'll be part of a day I had planned in the city!) Just talked to my MIL and she said to keep the ferry receipts so the landlord reimburse me.

This is actually kind of exciting! I've always wanted to sue someone. hahaha

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 6/19/2010 7:43:16 PM
Author: neatfreak
Octavia is right-if that is the WA statute your LL is out of luck. Make sure to file for double damages since your state allows it! Many states allow this if the LL keeps your funds past the date she is allowed legally and WA does too. Make sure you file for it so you have a chance of getting it!

At this point she cannot even legally deduct the weeding. I volunteered at a tenant resource center for a number of years and we saw this thing all the time. Usually if you show the LL the documents and the statute she will just write you a check because she at that point should know she's screwed otherwise. Esp. if it's possible that she will end up paying court fees and double damages. If you have to go to small claims court bring copies of all relevant statutes, all documentation like the lease, and stick to the facts. No name calling, no crying, no nothing. The judge doesn't care and might hold it against you. Just stick to the facts and you will win.

Thanks Neatfreak! We did have a similar situation with our previous rental (it was a rental agency) and they didn't pay until I threaten w/small claims. I never could figure out why they gave me back my pet deposit, but now I know. They broke the RCW.

I will file on Monday because I want the double money.

ETA - just wanted to add that she works for a big corporation here in WA so her wages (if need be) can be garnished!

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 6/19/2010 7:37:39 PM
Author: tyty333
MC...can we help you start shopping for a new $1800 ring? braclet? pendant???

Hahaha Don''t I wish. I''m actually saving the money for a new house. lol So much for a reference.

 

[perry]

MC:

Of course file it.

Just a note on procedures for the future. While it has been many years since I rented. I did rent for decades - and moved a lot.

I only had two situations where the check was not prompt - and always waited until well after the legal deadline to contact the landlord (if the check did not show up).

That way I knew they had to pay me without any arguments - or loose in court. I always got full refunds from them the instant I gave them a copy of the state statute and told them I''d be headed to the courthouse soon.

Don''t even think of worrying about the email. It means nothing.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 6/19/2010 8:23:17 PM
Author: perry
MC:

Of course file it.

Just a note on procedures for the future. While it has been many years since I rented. I did rent for decades - and moved a lot.

I only had two situations where the check was not prompt - and always waited until well after the legal deadline to contact the landlord (if the check did not show up).

That way I knew they had to pay me without any arguments - or loose in court. I always got full refunds from them the instant I gave them a copy of the state statute and told them I'd be headed to the courthouse soon.

Don't even think of worrying about the email. It means nothing.

Have a great day,

Perry

Thanks Perry!

Should I file this Monday or wait one more week to see if a check appears in the mail?

 

[Octavia]

MC, if the trip is inconvenient and you''re already going to town, you might as well go to the courthouse, speak to the people there, and file if it seems prudent. I''m sure you can withdraw the complaint if/when she pays up (but find out whether that would necessitate another trip!). If the trip isn''t that big a deal, you could wait to see what her response is and go from there.

 

[Indylady]

MC, I''m glad you quite a bit in your arsenal! I''m sending dust that your LL pays up and doesn''t cause a fuss.

 

[Cehrabehra]

I''m glad she can''t hold all of your money, but I am a bit disturbed that you''re trying to turn a profit on her. I can see where some might think she deserves it as she IS being greedy and unreasonable, but now I just see that you''re taking the same advantage she had and being greedy as well. I think getting your original deposit back minus REASONABLE weeding costs is fair.

 

[Steel]

Date: 6/19/2010 8:07:44 PM
Author: MC

Date: 6/19/2010 7:26:55 PM
Author: Octavia
I looked up the WA statute (RCW 59.18.280) and it clearly states:

''The landlord complies with this section if the required statement or payment, or both, are deposited in the United States mail properly addressed with first-class postage prepaid within the fourteen days. The notice shall be delivered to the tenant personally or by mail to his or her last known address. If the landlord fails to give such statement together with any refund due the tenant within the time limits specified above he or she shall be liable to the tenant for the full amount of the deposit. The landlord is also barred in any action brought by the tenant to recover the deposit from asserting any claim or raising any defense for retaining any of the deposit unless the landlord shows that circumstances beyond the landlord''s control prevented the landlord from providing the statement within the fourteen days or that the tenant abandoned the premises as defined in RCW 11 59.18.310. The court may in its discretion award up to two times the amount of the deposit for the intentional refusal of the landlord to give the statement or refund due.''

So, from the plain language, I would surmise that an email (even a legitimate, non-falsified one) is not acceptable. I''d point this out to her, and if she still gives you a hard time, take her to small claims.

Ahhhh! Yes! Thanks so much!!! I could kiss you for this! lol

I sent the link w/quote to her and told her flat out I will file in small claims court on Monday. I''m already going into town on Monday (have to take a ferry so going to the county courthouse is a longer trip - so luckily it''ll be part of a day I had planned in the city!) Just talked to my MIL and she said to keep the ferry receipts so the landlord reimburse me.

This is actually kind of exciting! I''ve always wanted to sue someone. hahaha

Well done Octavia. Sorry you have to take action MC. People suck. BTW I imagine the burden will be on her to prove that she did comply; which she didn''t so it should be open/shut.

 

[perry]

Date: 6/19/2010 8:32:57 PM
Author: MC

Date: 6/19/2010 8:23:17 PM

Author: perry

MC:


Of course file it.


Just a note on procedures for the future. While it has been many years since I rented. I did rent for decades - and moved a lot.


I only had two situations where the check was not prompt - and always waited until well after the legal deadline to contact the landlord (if the check did not show up).


That way I knew they had to pay me without any arguments - or loose in court. I always got full refunds from them the instant I gave them a copy of the state statute and told them I''d be headed to the courthouse soon.


Don''t even think of worrying about the email. It means nothing.


Have a great day,


Perry

Thanks Perry!


Should I file this Monday or wait one more week to see if a check appears in the mail?

That depends on your relationship with the landlord in question. In my two cases I met them in person with a copy of the state statutes in hand.... and left with the check.

The key lesson for all is that it really pays to know what the state statutes and any local regulations are. I''ve had a few other landlords try other things as well (like the one who had a line in the lease that the lease auto renewed for another year unless I notified them in writing in advance that I would not be renewing the lease - and thus wanted me to be responsible for another 9 months of rent. Our state statues specifically forbid a clause worded like that).

The vast majority of landlords are decent people who work to do the right thing. A few are out to take you for everything they can - and don''t care if they are legal or not.

I do try to avoid court if I can. It takes a surprising amount of time and energy. But, depending on your relationship and how things went this may be the way you feel is appropriate (I can''t judge that).

I wish you success in whatever way you feel is appropriate.

Perry

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 6/19/2010 11:25:40 PM
Author: Cehrabehra
I''m glad she can''t hold all of your money, but I am a bit disturbed that you''re trying to turn a profit on her. I can see where some might think she deserves it as she IS being greedy and unreasonable, but now I just see that you''re taking the same advantage she had and being greedy as well. I think getting your original deposit back minus REASONABLE weeding costs is fair.

My husband feels the same way as you Cehrabehra. My beef is with her lying to me and not communicating within a timely manner. With her deciding to go with the only & highest landscaping quote, I feel she is going to later go with a lower landscaper and pocket the difference. The fact that she didn''t respond to my email or phone call on the 15th and only responded later when I sited the law, clearly indicates she thought she could get away with keeping the deposit and I won''t put up with that BS.

 

[Hera]

Date: 6/20/2010 12:54:09 PM
Author: MC

Date: 6/19/2010 11:25:40 PM

Author: Cehrabehra

I''m glad she can''t hold all of your money, but I am a bit disturbed that you''re trying to turn a profit on her. I can see where some might think she deserves it as she IS being greedy and unreasonable, but now I just see that you''re taking the same advantage she had and being greedy as well. I think getting your original deposit back minus REASONABLE weeding costs is fair.

My husband feels the same way as you Cehrabehra. My beef is with her lying to me and not communicating within a timely manner. With her deciding to go with the only & highest landscaping quote, I feel she is going to later go with a lower landscaper and pocket the difference. The fact that she didn''t respond to my email or phone call on the 15th and only responded later when I sited the law, clearly indicates she thought she could get away with keeping the deposit and I won''t put up with that BS.

And hopefully it will teach her a lesson and she won''t try that move with a tenant after you that doesn''t have the power of ps!

 

[iheartscience]

I couldn't disagree more with Cehra. The landlord BROKE THE LAW, then tried to get out of the consequences (giving back your full deposit) by falsifying an email to you. Which, as it turns out, isn't even legally admissible.

I would file for double the security deposit and let a judge decide what to do about it. At the very least, you're entitled to your FULL deposit and not even your deposit less weeding costs.

Also, $1700 for weeding a lawn is absurd. I highly doubt she even got a quote from an actual landscaping company. She's trying to screw you out of your deposit, just like the vast majority of landlords seem to do. It's not your problem she broke the law.

ETA I also agree that this should teach her a lesson about her dishonesty. I doubt she'll try to screw another tenant after being forced to pay you at least your entire deposit back, if not more. The double deposit penalty is obviously designed as a deterrent to landlords from screwing their tenants over. You didn't make the law but I think you should definitely use it to your advantage.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 6/20/2010 11:49:19 AM
Author: perry


I do try to avoid court if I can. It takes a surprising amount of time and energy. But, depending on your relationship and how things went this may be the way you feel is appropriate (I can''t judge that).

I wish you success in whatever way you feel is appropriate.

Perry

Hopefully we can avoid court and I''m hoping with the email she was sent yesterday, she''ll pay up because she''ll be missing work for all the proceedings. We were excellent tenants and never late on our rent and we had a good relationship with her. This was the last thing I expected. Her saying, "oh, the only bid was for $1700+ and I''ll have to go with that one." I talked to my MIL and she said this is so typical when it comes to deposit returns.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 6/20/2010 1:02:41 PM
Author: thing2of2
I couldn''t disagree more with Cehra. The landlord BROKE THE LAW, then tried to get out of the consequences (giving back your full deposit) by falsifying an email to you. Which, as it turns out, isn''t even legally admissible.

I would file for double the security deposit and let a judge decide what to do about it. At the very least, you''re entitled to your FULL deposit and not even your deposit less weeding costs.

Also, $1700 for weeding a lawn is absurd. I highly doubt she even got a quote from an actual landscaping company. She''s trying to screw you out of your deposit, just like the vast majority of landlords seem to do. It''s not your problem she broke the law.

ETA I also agree that this should teach her a lesson about her dishonesty. I doubt she''ll try to screw another tenant after being forced to pay you at least your entire deposit back, if not more. The double deposit penalty is obviously designed as a deterrent to landlords from screwing their tenants over. You didn''t make the law but I think you should definitely use it to your advantage.

I''m not even sure if she''ll rent again. Just to point out, we were her first renters and she now hopes to sell the house.

One thing that would have been appropriate is for her to have scanned and attached a copy of the landscaping bid. That may have cleared up confusion as to the reasoning behind that fee.

I have to say this taught me a lesson, too. . .that in the future, that I will always send a hard-copy and by certified mail, to be on the safe side! I think tomorrow, I''ll begin by sending her a certifiied letter siting the RCW.