Kenny and Gene: Photo Help Needed

[minousbijoux]

So I set up a light box. I got a tripod (little one). I got a big foam core board to diffuse the light. I got a bright tungsten light. I put a mirror in the bottom as I thought you both use. But I am still having problems. I'm trying to figure out if its operator error, limitations of the camera, or the fact that the light source is still not working. So I have photos which hopefully will help you diagnose the problem.

Here are some pics of the light box. My test gem was a Mali garnet. Since that is so light in color, I thought part of the problem could be that it was too similar to the color of the mirror, so I put a cardboard disk in there.

 

[minousbijoux]

So I'm not sure what the problem is but the stones never seemed to get to the point of having that crystal clear focus and detail. I tried two different (incandescent) light sources. I'll be happy to take pictures of the set up, but I did what Kenny has shown in a prior thread. I cut a hole in a white board and fit the camera lens through at one end of the box. At the other end of the box, the light source is aimed towards the box with the light reflecting off the white board at an angle down in. First I tried auto mode because I thought I would have more flexibility and that it would correct for what it might consider lower lighting conditions with a slower shutter speed. I hardly got that far, because it appears that the auto mode requires the use of autofocus, which could not sufficiently focus in that lighting environment so I couldn't go further. I then tried it on macro mode with the focus being close small objects. I got pictures, but they are grainy.

At one point, I changed out the light source for a stronger bulb. Then I played around with the ISI setting on the camera, as well as the white balance, thinking that if I reset the white balance for incandescent light. Based on the attached photos, these didn't fare much better.

 

[minousbijoux]

Can you tell from these pics what else I need to do? They are all so muddled in color and so grainy...is it the lack of clarity? Do I need a brighter light? Do I need to set up the camera farther away? Do I need greater contrast than a light stone against a light background, like a bright color against the light background?

Any other ideas?

 

[kenny]

Oh fun fun fun.
I love these threads.
Contrats on the progress.
Looks like you've been having fun.

Nothing wrong with doing it but I rarely place a gem on a mirror.
You'd have to be careful what in the background the mirror is reflecting.
Also that thick black plastic case around the mirror will be picked up by the gems.
If I was to use a mirror I'd get one with no case.

I often place the gem on this plexiglas stand.
It makes it seem the gem is floating in space though, depending on the lighting angle, it may provide a reflection under the gem.



Here is the effect it gives:



Here's the whole set up with the white card removed from the lens.
Notice the plexiglas stand in the light tent.



I have another plexiglas stand identical to the one above but it's solid opaque black.
It gives this look: (sorry bout the soft focus. )

 

[kenny]

Notice in my 3rd pic above the light box is translucent.
I can't tell if yours is or not.
When you take the pics the idea is for the lights to be outside the box and the walls of the box let the light through.

The white box does two things.
Prevent stuff in the room from appearing in your gem and softening the light by making the whole box the light source; this reduces bright and dark areas so you can see the body color of the gem better.

 

[kenny]

A dish of salt holds gems nicely.

 

[kenny]

What camera are you using? Type, brand and model # please.
I can look up the user's guide online.

You asked about graininess and soft focus...
To get the sharpest pics you want to fill the screen up with the gem as much as possible BEFORE you take the pic.
(Instead of 'cropping' in after you take the pic.)
You do this by getting the gem as close to the camera as possible but still in focus.

A while back I posted how to do that with a ruler and an orange ear plug.
Did you see that thread?

The itself mirror has no color.
It just takes on the color of whatever it's reflecting.

Brighter lights are better.
An ISO of 100 is preferred if there's enough light.
If you can set your camera to Aperture Priority mode, and use mid apertures like f8

Does your owner's manual tell you that you can do 'manual" white balance?

Do you use some software for adjusting the image after you take the pic, aka post processing?

Again the walls and ceiling of the light box should be translucent ... not of foam core board since that will not pass light.
Foam core board is groovy for cutting a hole in and slipping it on your lens so the gem won't reflect back your camera/tripod/shirt etc.

In one pic it looks like your box is open at the ceiling.
It's better if the top also has white translucent material to let light in.
You can use sheer white cloth, or tracing paper.
I've always thought an old aquarium would make the perfect starting point for a light box.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I think you are mixing what I do, and what Kenny does. Kenny is using a light tent. It's made of fabric which allows a lot of light to pass through it, but softens the light and mixes the light source broader and more even. Your light box looks like its made of cardboard which is going to block most all of the light. This is what I use. What's different about the way we light the stones is that I reflect the light off the white foam core board that has the hole in, Kenny shines the light on the light tent.

Autofocus is practically useless, and so is auto metering. Your camera's light meeter will read all this white around the stone, and try to make an exposure that turns this white into a around 18% gray tone. What happens then, is your stone is underexposed. You should have a camera that has a manual focus, and manual exposure, or at least be able to over ride the exposure by 1 or 2 stops.

 

[minousbijoux]

Kenny, thanks so much, but I'm gonna start with a whine - here goes: I just wanted to take good, accurate pictures of my stones; I did not want to end up with this being a full time job! Arrghh!

Okay, rant over, feel slightly better. So many things to address in what you wrote, really helpful.

My light box is a cardboard box on which I glued white paper on the bottom and all four insides. One end is cut off for the tripod and camera, and I put the white card over the camera as explained earlier. My camera is a Nikon Coolpix S6000. To date, I have really liked it, but found what seem like major limitations in having it do what I want in this "studio" setting. The largest Fstop is F5.6, I think. After trying other things, I reset the ISI to the minimum of 100 and changed the white balance to "incandescent."

I am attaching two photos - one without having reset the ASA (so whatever it comes with in default setting) and with the default white balance as well. The next one, the warmer of the two, I've reset to the lower 100 and set the white balance to incandescent, which I think accounts for the warmth of the photo.

Things I could not do: I could not get the camera any where close to the stone, or use the zoom at any significant power. Why? Because the camera could not focus. In Autofocus, there is nothing you can do and the camera IMO arbitrarily finds something like the edge of the box to focus on and does. You're right - the rims of the mirror have been in a problem, because for whatever reason, the camera in autofocus wants to focus on them (btw, I looked all over for a small edgeless mirror to no avail). The only way I could get close to a magnified pic of the stone, was to take whatever pic the camera would allow (definitely better in macro than in auto mode, not sure why), and then blow it up after using the camera's features to do so. But you are absolutely right - if I could get it to allow me a zoomed closeup to begin with, I wouldn't have to degrade the photo later.

Here's my thing, Kenny. I am committed to making this work, but want to keep my expenditure under $100 and I've already spent some of that $100 on the tripod and foam core. Is it worth looking for a proper white box? Where do you happen to find plexiglass like that? Would clear glass work as well (I'm now gonna think creatively about what I have lying around that I could potentially use).

My next door neighbor and dear friend came over to help. He's a professional photographer/artist and said: 1) the camera had limitations; 2) the autofocus was its own judge of proper light, etc. and even if I could play with aperture and shutter speed, it wouldn't matter if I couldn't eliminate the auto focus from disallowing the picture at the outset. 3) Very limited light settings with a relatively small aperture range. His overall suggestion was stronger light. What are the lights you use again and is there a way I can replicate them for my budget? The first light I tried was my son's desk lamp from Ikea. It has a small but clear bulb, so I assumed it would decent light? I don't know. Then, since my buddy wasn't happy with the lighting, I got another incandescent table lamp and tried first with the shade but with the shade focusing the light towards the reflecting white board. That took warmer pics because the shades was a cream color. Then I took the shade off and used it just like that - pretty bright (and, as you can see in the unadjusted pic, kinda stark or cold white). That's it for now - any and all suggestions are welcome - and thanks so much Kenny for loving this so much!

 

[minousbijoux]

Gene - that's right, and I was modeling mine more or less on what you had discussed in an earlier thread. I didn't particularly want to go get all "high fashion" on my gems; just wanted to gerryrig something that would work with what I have around. I tried to do what you did. Box covered in white. Check. White foam board angling down toward box so light will reflect down in. Check. Bright light source at other end. Check. Hole in foam board just big enough to fit the camera lens. Check. Camera mounted on tripod. Check (although while this last one is to prevent camera shake, I was so stumped by the other issues that I didn't get around to timed pictures to determine if it made any difference).

 

[deorwine]

Hey minous,

Yes, your friend is right -- I think the biggest problem is the lighting, especially for the earlier pictures (the later pictures look better in terms of graininess and focus). The problem is that if the camera does not have enough light (= enough information to make a good picture), it has three choices: it can make the picture grainy (high ISO), it can make the picture very dark, or it can try to get more light by holding open the lens for a long time (that is, slow shutter speed -- and if the camera moves at all, like if you are holding it, the picture will not be clear).

If the bulb you are using is not bright enough, you can try bringing it closer. Light falls off as the square of distance (because the light is basically spread around a greater area), so the closer it is, the more powerful it is going to be. (ETA: Look at how close Kenny's lights are. I am betting that your lights are nowhere near as close, based on the light level I see in your pics.)

You DO need to put the camera on macro mode for it to focus close to the stone. If you zoom all the way OUT (that is, do NOT use the zoom in function at all) you should be able to get the stone 3 cm to the camera (I looked up the manual, I'm such a dork ) . DO NOT USE THE ZOOM. It will not work. Well, it will, but if it's anything like my point-and-shoot you will then not be able to get the stone more than half a meter to the camera, which is kind of a long way away.

I think cameras sometimes have problems focusing on gemstones though because of the reflections and everything. Try focusing it on the penny (or whatever else is in the picture at the exact distance you want) and then you can crop it out later.

Your camera has exposure compensation and this can be used to deal with the brightness problem Gene describes.

(I actually kind of suck at taking pics of gems myself, so you are free to take all my comments with a grain of salt, but I think I mostly understand the theory; it's that I am not patient enough to set up a nice light box and all that. So you are way ahead of me )

(I hope any of this makes sense! I really need to work right now so I'm typing kind of fast. I'll try to check in at lunch or tonight.)

 

[Kismet]

You can buy light tents fairly inexpensively. The 12" version of this one is only $15. http://www.amazon.com/CowboyStudio-24in-Photo-Soft-Light/dp/B001TKEUNI/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1361901573&sr=8-8&keywords=photo+box+studio If you're only photographing jewelry, I'm not sure you'd need anything bigger.

 

[minousbijoux]

Thank you both for your comments. Kismet, that's great to know that I can find them inexpensively. Now I just need to get these things in my hands NOW since I am so impatient and don't want to wait for it to arrive in the mail. I wonder if there is a big store around here like Target that has a little section on "weird camera paraphernalia."

Deorwine, you and I are in the same place! Your logic is just like mine, only I'm not sure that its as simple as our logic - no disrespect intended. For example, no matter what the manual says, I have NEVER, not even in the brightest light, had my camera be willing to take clear photos anywhere close to 3 cm, even in the brightest light, even on macro/macro mode, and believe me, I have tried a lot with this camera over the last few years.

I do wonder if the mirror is inadvertently throwing things off, so I'll try some with no mirror. But Gene, isn't that what you use to get your reflection? I love the concept of reflection because then you can see the crown faceting.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Yes I use a mirror.

I shine the lights on the foam core board into the camera. Since your box is cardboard lined with white paper, it won't do any good to shine the light on the box. Shine it on the white board so that it reflects off the board onto the stone. The ideal thing with a stone, would be to have the light exactly where the lens is. This isn't possible because the lens is there, so shinning the light on the board around the lens is the next best thing.

BUT! Here is your problem. These point and shoot type camera's in a macro mode allow you to take macro pictures, but you need to be an inch away from the stone, sometimes even less. This is too close.

I use a SLR with a macro lens, and am shooting about 9 inches from the stone. This gives me me room to work, and also the further from the stone, the more evenly you can light the facets. My next move is to upgrade from 105mm lens to the Nikon 200mm macro. This will allow me to get even further away.

 

[LD]

Kenny I've got exactly the same tent as you but looking at your photos I can see what I've done wrong. The instructions were to put lights around the tent basically shining through and lighting the inside. I tried it with the lights they sold with it but it didn't give enough light. Looking at the size of your big 'uns I think mine were too small!

 

[minousbijoux]

Yes I use a mirror.

I shine the lights on the foam core board into the camera. Since your box is cardboard lined with white paper, it won't do any good to shine the light on the box. Shine it on the white board so that it reflects off the board onto the stone. The ideal thing with a stone, would be to have the light exactly where the lens is. This isn't possible because the lens is there, so shinning the light on the board around the lens is the next best thing.

BUT! Here is your problem. These point and shoot type camera's in a macro mode allow you to take macro pictures, but you need to be an inch away from the stone, sometimes even less. This is too close.

I use a SLR with a macro lens, and am shooting about 9 inches from the stone. This gives me me room to work, and also the further from the stone, the more evenly you can light the facets. My next move is to upgrade from 105mm lens to the Nikon 200mm macro. This will allow me to get even further away.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm already doing. So I'm confused. I have yet to have experienced a time when my camera would allow me to focus when I was one inch away from the stone - even in the brightest light. So what does that mean? I'm doomed with the set up I have? If I invested in a light tent and lighting, and with that investment, placed the stone much closer to the opening and the camera, do you think this would work? A tent like Kismet suggested:

http://www.amazon.com/CowboyStudio-24in-Photo-Soft-Light/dp/B001TKEUNI/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1361901573&sr=8-8&keywords=photo+box+studio

...and lighting like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Table-studio-lighting-5000K-daylight/dp/B002PNEDFS/ref=lh_di_t_dup?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thoughts? Will it work or will it just be a waste of money for my point and shoot? TIA

 

[emmmme]

Yes I use a mirror.

I shine the lights on the foam core board into the camera. Since your box is cardboard lined with white paper, it won't do any good to shine the light on the box. Shine it on the white board so that it reflects off the board onto the stone. The ideal thing with a stone, would be to have the light exactly where the lens is. This isn't possible because the lens is there, so shinning the light on the board around the lens is the next best thing.

BUT! Here is your problem. These point and shoot type camera's in a macro mode allow you to take macro pictures, but you need to be an inch away from the stone, sometimes even less. This is too close.

I use a SLR with a macro lens, and am shooting about 9 inches from the stone. This gives me me room to work, and also the further from the stone, the more evenly you can light the facets. My next move is to upgrade from 105mm lens to the Nikon 200mm macro. This will allow me to get even further away.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm already doing. So I'm confused. I have yet to have experienced a time when my camera would allow me to focus when I was one inch away from the stone - even in the brightest light. So what does that mean? I'm doomed with the set up I have? If I invested in a light tent and lighting, and with that investment, placed the stone much closer to the opening and the camera, do you think this would work? A tent like Kismet suggested:

http://www.amazon.com/CowboyStudio-24in-Photo-Soft-Light/dp/B001TKEUNI/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1361901573&sr=8-8&keywords=photo+box+studio

...and lighting like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Table-studio-lighting-5000K-daylight/dp/B002PNEDFS/ref=lh_di_t_dup?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thoughts? Will it work or will it just be a waste of money for my point and shoot? TIA

Unfortunately, the best lighting in the world won't help you if your camera doesn't have a good lens. Point and shoot cameras often have lots of bells and whistles (megapixels, shooting modes, video, etc.,) but don't often have high quality lenses that are capable of capturing fine details.

It's not to say that it's impossible to get a good picture with a point and shoot, but you may need an upgrade. In my experience, Fuji point and shoot cameras have really excellent macro capabilities.

 

[bobsiv]

I think you will have a tough time using Gene's method (which is very similar to what I do) because your camera won't allow manual focus. As someone here said, your minimum focal distance is 1.2'', but in order to actually focus on something that close you will need to put a ton of light on it, probably more than you will be able to manage with a bounce card.

Your biggest issue right now is filling more of the frame with the stone so you don't need to do so much cropping. Maybe try giving up on the bounce card and trying direct sunlight from a window shining into the studio box. Put the camera off to the side a little to avoid blocking the light, and see how much closer you can get. This is what I do with my autofocus point and shoot, although the results are not nearly as good as with my fancy DSLR and macro lens.

If that works for you, a small investment that makes a big difference once the frame is filled is buying a cheap remote control and using that to take the picture. When you hit the button you shake the camera, even on a nice tripod, and this gets rid of that motion artifact. I use a remote with my DSLR and I set it to raise the mirror on the first click and take the picture with the second click, so I also eliminate camera body shake from the mirror going up.

PS: I agree, Fuji does make awesome point and shoot cameras for macro now. I know a professional insect photographer who uses one all the time.

 

[minousbijoux]

Bob: thanks for weighing in...unfortunately, I'm not liking the direction this is going in...buying an expensive camera is not in my future at all.

So what about buying the lighting and the light tent? Do you think I would be able make progress with those tools, or that I shouldn't even bother? Also, what about tricking the camera as I think Kenny was suggesting by getting it to focus on something else and then moving it on the stone?

At this point, I'm being pretty creative and willing to be daring! All suggestions to trick the camera are welcome!

 

[deorwine]

Deorwine, you and I are in the same place! Your logic is just like mine, only I'm not sure that its as simple as our logic - no disrespect intended. For example, no matter what the manual says, I have NEVER, not even in the brightest light, had my camera be willing to take clear photos anywhere close to 3 cm, even in the brightest light, even on macro/macro mode, and believe me, I have tried a lot with this camera over the last few years.

No disrespect taken Huh, I am puzzled! I have no problems taking macro pictures of ordinary objects at about 3-5cm or so (~1.5-2 inches) with my point-and-shoot, it's just gemstones that are difficult for me because of the focus issue (and because I'm impatient). Have you tried a) using the timer (that is, not touching the camera when it goes off -- your camera has a ten-second and two-second timer) and b) taking a picture of something that is opaque (that is, not a gemstone), to see if the macro mode works in that case? The camera has to be perfectly still -- at close distances even in bright light, the wobbling of the camera even just due to holding it or pressing the button will sometimes throw it off.

If that works, at least you know that your camera CAN focus closeup, now it's just a matter of tricking it into doing so for gemstones

(Using the built-in camera timer is what I do instead of bobsiv's suggestion of buying a remote control, which is more the high-end SLR people's way of doing things -- that is what my husband would do )

 

[bobsiv]

I'm sure you will be able to get nice pictures with your camera. If I recall, a recent cover of Time magazine was shot with an iPhone. Like I said, try using daylight from a window to light the stone. Even if it looks like dim light to you, sunlight is much brighter than the bulbs you're using. I set up my cardboard box so the camera is facing a window, that way my bounce card is reflecting sunlight. You may need to skip the bounce card and put your back to the window so you can get the camera close enough to the stone. You should be zoomed out almost as far as possible (not in! counterintuitive!), this gives you the minimum focal distance of 1.2'' and actually lets you fill more frame then using the zoom.

Do what you can to get closer to the stone and focus. As Kenny suggested you can use the focus lock for this, although it can be little bit of a pain. Put something high contrast next to the stone (maybe a bottle cap or something?), now focus on that and hold the shutter button halfway down to lock the focal distance. Then just set up your shot without letting go of the shutter button! I have to do this sometimes with light colored stones and my point and shoot because the autofocus needs a lot of contrast. Good luck!

 

[chrono]

Gene,
I recall you did a test with a regular point and shoot under the same conditions as your usual DSLR. How did you manage that one? I recall the pictures turning out rather well!

 

[kenny]

I did some homework and will make a few posts ...

Here's a link to pdf files of the user's guide for your Nikon Coopix6000: http://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/16762/~/user's-manual---coolpix-s6000---guide-to-digital-photography

Snip from specifications:



Unfortunately your camera has the smallest of all the sensors on the below comparison chart from Wikipedia.
Your sensor's size is 1/2.3" which is the smallest green box in the lower left corner.
Even though it has 14 MP the sensor is only 18% as large as a full frame DSLR sensor.

(Gene, you took a lovely macro pic a week or so ago with a point and shoot ... what was the make and model # of that camera?
I wonder if yours has a larger sensor.)



A small sensor means there is a limit to how sharp and clear the pics can be, how much they can be enlarged and it means you need tons fo light, but we can still adjust your process to optimize results.
The small sensor just means we have to work carefully to get everything else just right.

 

[kenny]

Next here are the focus specs.



Like bobsiv said, for max enlargement in macro mode set the lens to fully wide angle.
It says the closest it can focus is 1.2"
What is not clear is if that is 1.2" from the gem to the front of the lens or 1.2" from the gem to the sensor.
I strongly suspect the later, but you must experiment.
Experiment with a dark gem on a white background for high contrast.
Just keep taking pics moving the camera closer and closer and look at the pics to find out how close is too close.

Like bobsiv said for a light gem temporarily placing a high-contrast item next to the gem will be easier for your camera to focus on.
Push the shutter half way and wait to see the green rectangle indicating focus lock, then while holding the button remove the temp item.
Big hassle, but may work.
It is preferred to take the pics using a timer or a wireless remote control so your hand vibrations don't blur the pic, but fortunately your camera has vibration compensation which may help.

An alternative is to place the gem on a piece of paper that is the opposite color of the gem.
For instance if the gem is yellow, place it on a purple thing, if it's blue place it on an orange thing.
Hopefully this will not be necessary as the colors may not look attractive together.

 

[kenny]

Light fixtures like this are around $5 at a big hardware store.
Get the largest reflectors they have.

Get 3 and install the highest wattage CFLs you can find at Home Depot where there cheap
Any "color" of light will work since your camera should white balance it out, but I prefer the 5000K ones since they are closer to daylight.

 

[kenny]

Page 40 of your manual tells you how to white balance MANUALLY.
This is best and just takes a moment to do.

Light varies continuously in color.
Daylight, fluorescent, tungsten all have a zillion different colors and the settings for them just use some average.
You are photographing colored gems so accurate white balance is important.

 

[kenny]

Pics of gems will almost always be too dark.
Cameras, even the best and most expensive ones, are dumb.
They adjust themselves to deliver 18% reflectance, no matter what they are taking a picture of.
Google 18% reflectance if you are interested, but let's just say even the best cameras are too stupid to correctly expose a pic of a white horse in the snow on a sunny day.
The camera will adjust the exposure to make the white horse, and the snow, 18% gray in the pic.
In another picture the camera will also adjust the exposure to make a black horse look the same 18% gray in the pic.

We are smarter than our cameras, which isn't saying much.
This is why post-processing is so important.
If you are not going to do post-processing, then you can adjust the exposure IN THE CAMERA, before you take the pic.

Page 34 of your manual tells you how to do it.
Try it.
Experiment.
Go too far and see the effect.

 

[kenny]

BTW, the online manual I linked to above has a very groovy feature.
Scroll down to the index at the end.
Each item in the index is followed by a page number.
Clicking on the page number instantly takes you to that page.

 

[minousbijoux]

Once again I thank you for all your research. I continued to play around with it today, and made some improvements in photos. Still absolutely cannot get to within 1.2", but will continue to play around. I was able to set it on timer, so I could see the difference - not a whole lot, as the shutter speed was fairly fast. Oh, this btw, was due to taking advantage of the afternoon sun as the light source. But I still could not get closer than about 4-6" from the stones. This means that the stone is quite small and upon magnification, the photo quality degrades. I think I'm going to bite the bullet and buy the lamps and light tent. Since the camera will "read" the light source and correct for white balance, then it doesn't really matter the quality of the light, just that its really, really bright! Now I'll just work on getting as close as I can. Thanks again for all your help.

To Be Continued...

 

[kenny]

While Gene's pics are superb, IMHO a light tent with translucent walls and ceiling will be easier than a white box with sides that does not allow external light to go through the walls.

Still absolutely cannot get to within 1.2",... But I still could not get closer than about 4-6" from the stones.

I'm not sure what you mean.
It could be:
1. You physically cannot position the camera 1.2" from the gem.
2. You can, but the pics are out of focus.

If the problem is #1, then placing the gem on a few CDs or books may be all you need.
Of course cover what the gem sits on with white paper.
I'd also just tape white paper over the camera's front and cut a hole for the lens.

BTW with the gem on a piece of paper all you have to do to focus is slide the paper towards or away from the camera.