Just returned from Jeweler, saw one AGS-0, opinions?

[Klunker]

My B&M Jeweler sourced two AGS-0 diamonds for me following my specifications.
I would like to hear your opinions on these. I saw diamond number one today and with some luck he will get diamond two in a few days.

Here they are:

Diamond one:
AGS Report 0009370701 (Jan. 28th 200
Round Brilliant
6.02x6.06x3.64
Weight 0.797 ct
Cut Not stated on the report...?!
Clarity VS1
Color H

Polish Excellent
Symmetry Excellent

Table 56.1%
Total Depth 60.2%
Crown Angle 33.9
Crown Height 14.8%
Girdle Faceted, 0.7% to 3.0%
Pavilion Angle 40.8
Pavilion Depth 43.0%
Star Length 53%
Lower Girdle Length 81%
Culet Very Small

HCA 0.8 Excellent
Ex/Ex/Ex/Ex

Question:
The HCA shows this diamond outside AGS-0 range. It is supposed to be an AGS-0 I thought, but since the cut is not listed on the report and I read somewhere that polish and symmetry should also be ideal in AGS-0s I have my doubts. Any advice on this one? Is it an AGS-1 then? Should I pass?

I looked at this diamond with my Ideal-Scope and it showed all pink with good arrows. Looking trough a H&A viewer it showed several hearts unidentifiable though.

I am also a little bit disappointed, because I couldn''t see the arrows (as seen in Ellen''s and jcrow''s rings) with just my eyes. Should I be able to? Is that only visible in ACA diamonds? Is it the multiple light sources at the jeweler? Are the pictures in the gallery enhanced somehow?


Diamond two:
AGS Document 0009101502 (Oct. 25th 2007)
Round Brilliant
5.79x5.85x3.61
Weight 0.751 ct
Cut AGS Ideal 0
Clarity VS2
Color I

Table 54.6%
Total Depth 61.9%
Crown Angle 34.5
Crown Height 15.7%
Girdle Faceted, 1.7% to 4.3%
Pavilion Angle 40.7
Pavilion Depth 43.1%
Star Length 50%
Lower Girdle Length 75%
Culet Pointed

HCA 1.1 Excellent
Ex/Ex/Ex/Vg

Question:
How does this second one look to you? I would really apprechiate your opinions.
Thank you so much!

 

[Cleo]

That''s an interesting one... and you''re right, it doesn''t grade the cut.

I looked up the AGSL cert here: http://agslab.com/products_report.php

I believe what you have there is a Diamond Quality Report from AGSL, whch doesn''t grade the cut. Quite why that is useful I don''t know, but as you can see they do various types of grading services:

http://agslab.com/products.html

Unless it was specifically graded AGS0 and there is a document to prove it, then it isn''t an AGS0 diamond. As you say, to receive the AGS0 grading it needs to be graded 0 (Ideal) for cut, polish and symmetry.

To answer your other point, my own diamond actually falls just outside the paramaters for AGS0 according to the HCA - but has still been graded AGS0.. so it is possible. (This is because the HCA is proportion-based and the AGSL cut grading is performance based).

It''s probably a very nice stone - but it isn''t the best cut available.

You should also be aware that AGS0 does not mean that a diamond will show hearts and arrows.

AGS0 is a grade for cut, polish and symmetry.
H&A is a phenomenon (mahnanahna!) caused by super-precise optical symmetry, which goes above & beyond that required for AGS0 grading.

Many AGS0 diamonds exhibit some form of patterning, but are not precise enough to be called H&A stone. (The diamond in my avatar is AGS0 but not H&A and you can see some arrows in that particular photo).

More info here:
http://diamonds.pricescope.com/hna.asp
http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/NewCutGrading/ScintillationToPatternorNotToPattern/

To answer your question, the second diamond is far better cut - but may still not be an H&A diamond.

Are you absolutely set on buying from a B&M?

If you really want H&A I would suggest a vendor like GoodOldGold or Whiteflash who carry loads of AGS0 H&A diamonds..

x x x

 

[Cleo]

Here are some diamonds to look at:

GOG

0.76ct I VS2 AGS0 H&A $2825 after discount

0.731ct I SI1 AGS0 H&A $2550 after discount

I have included an SI1 in there, as if the diamond is eyeclean, there will be no visible difference between an SI1 and an IF.

WF

0.805ct I SI1 ACA H&A $2855 before discount
0.722ct I VS2 ACA H&A $2725 before discount

If these are beyond your budget, do let us know how much you would like to spend and we can search again for you.

x x x

 

[Klunker]

Thanks for looking into this Cleo! I really appreciate it.
Before I posted here I downloaded the certificate from the AGS link you posted. I wanted to make sure that the cut grade really isn''t stated on the report. Why would you have an AGS certificate without a cut grade anyway? Hopefully AGS will answer the cut question in an eMail I wrote them.

Thanks also for linking some diamonds for me. I have looked at Whiteflash already. They are all well within my budget.
Did you realize the second WF diamond is also showing this "out of AGS-0 box" phenomenon in the HCA?

But here the certificate truly states the cut grade.

One week ago I saw this beauty below, but didn''t consider it simply because of its size. I thought that I am looking at a range of 0.75 - 0.85 ct. Diamond number one with its 0.79 ct sounded better to me. Wanted to crack the 6mm hurdle. But now I am realizing how rare AGS-0 diamonds really are and that I need to compromise. Do you think diamond number three below will face-up as a true 0.73ct? Based on its measurements, doesn’t it face-up more like a 0.69ct stone?

I have looked at it with my Ideal-Scope, looks wonderful. But I did not look at it through a H&A viewer yet. Since the wrapper paper stated it being a H&A I want to see the hearts before going further.

Diamond three:
AGS Document 0009313601
Round Brilliant (Canadian, supposedly H&A)
5.76x5.81x3.56
Weight 0.731 ct
Cut AGS Ideal 0
Clarity VS1
Color G

Table 56.6%
Total Depth 61.5%
Crown Angle 34.6
Crown Height 14.9%
Girdle Faceted, 1.4% to 3.9%
Pavilion Angle 40.8
Pavilion Depth 43.0%
Star Length 53%
Lower Girdle Length 75%
Culet Pointed

HCA 1.4 Excellent
Ex/Ex/Ex/Vg

What do you think about this diamond?
And now between Diamonds two and three, which one would you pick?

 

[Cleo]

My pleasure - you are very welcome!

Your post raises a few points...

Firstly, with the Whiteflash ACA range, they are all SO well cut, and with such super-precise levels of optical symmetry (to create the H&A phenomenon) that the HCA isn''t really helpful.

Although the HCA is an excellent tool for weeding out not-so-well cut stones, and for narrowing down the stones you wish to consider, it should only be used to eliminate stones and should not be used as a selection tool.

The HCA scoring is based on proportions, whereas the AGSL grading is based on light performance... this means that even though some stones might fall outside the AGS0 boundaries on the HCA (based on proportions), they may still be graded as AGS0 based on their light performance.

My own ering diamond is actually a perfect example of this (Cert number 0008362010, carat weigh 1.001 if you want to check it out yourself) - it''s an AGS0 which falls outside the boundaries when you look at it on the HCA.

The diamond you listed sounds lovely. However, as you are tring to get as large a carat weight as you can, I would suggest that you perhaps consider looking at stones of a lower clarity, as VS1 is really very clean indeed... and you are paying a premium for clarity you can''t see (if that makes sense!).

By dropping to VS2, SI1 (or even SI2) you could invest more of your budget in getting a greater carat weight. As long as you know (either by seeing it yourself or having the vendor confirm it for you) that the stone is eyeclean, it won''t look any different than a flawless diamond.

There is no visible difference in size between diamonds 2 and 3. Diamond 3 has higher colour and clarity. My choice would also have to take price into consideration: if the prices were the same I would choose diamond 3. If they aren''t, let me know the difference & I''ll tell you what I think!

Both will be beautiful diamonds though...

x x x

 

[Klunker]

Thanks again Cleo,

How nice of you giving me your cert number to look up!

In the beginning my B&M jeweler gave me a list of 10 choices. I narrowed it down to two using the HCA. I understand this tool is only used to eliminate stones that could underperform, but I thought it might be helpful to list the scores here for Pricescoper''s to comment on.

While eliminating stones it just so happened that the remaining ones were the VS1''s.
I am totally open for VS2''s (would actually prefer them) and with the help from you Pricescoper''s I am warming up to the SI1''s as well - slowly.
Actually, I had this weird feeling while looking at both of the VS1''s, because they were ''boring'', had no character, nothing to see with the 10x loupe.

I emailed Katie from Whiteflash and she offered me a new diamond that just came in - and guess what it is the same 0.80, I, S1 you linked above!

She will find out if it is perfectly eye-clean from all angles and sides, 4 inches away.
My girlfriend is into science and when we were test shopping she insisted on looking at all stones with 40x magnification. And she has microscopes at work...

I will look again at diamond number three tomorrow. They organized a H&A viewer for me.

Since number two is still somewhere in the US and not with my jeweler yet, I guess I''ll go for number three or the WF ACA.
This is so exciting. I have been studying diamond tutorials

and reading posts now for three months and finally it might all come to an end. I''ll let you know what WF says.

Does anyone else have opinions on those three diamonds and the 0.80 one from WF?

 

[Cleo]

Hey, no problem - it illustrated the point, so why not!

I have a reaaaally hard time finding the clouds in my stone with a 10x loupe... which is pretty annoying if you are actually trying to see them!

As you''ll have seen, mine''s a VS2 - but I am totally sold on an SI1 (or even eyeclean SI2) when I upgrade... such is the education I''ve had from being on here.

I think when all you''ve seen is the stones in B&Ms which they call SI1 (which aren''t GIA or AGS graded) then it can really put you off those grades. Luckily, PS has re-educated me on that and I am now completely happy to buying SI grades as long as they''re eyeclean.

Don''t let your GF be put off a diamond because she''s viewing it under 40x or higher! It''s great if she''s looking at high magnification purely out of scientific curiosity... but please bear in mind that diamonds are only graded by the labs under 10x magnification...and that even an IF diamond will probably show incluions under 40x!! (Just worth mentioning!).

It''s cool that WF picked one of the stones I posted for you... I''m an awesome personal shopper! I would LOVE an ACA personally... so I vote for this one.

Hopefully you''ll get some more opinions on the WF ACA and Diamond 3... please do let me know which one you choose!

x x x

 

[JulieN]

people don't want to buy AGS 2s. AGS1, maybe. If it didn't get a zero, they wouldn't buy the one that has a cut grade.

 

[Klunker]

Date: 4/18/2008 4:51:03 PM
Author: JulieN
people don''t want to buy AGS 2s. AGS1, maybe. If it didn''t get a zero, they wouldn''t buy the one that has a cut grade.

That''s what I was thinking.
I eMailed AGS and they answered that they will not deal with customers, but that I could have my jeweler ask for the cut grade.

 

[Klunker]

Date: 4/17/2008 9:43:32 PM
Author:Klunker


[...]
I am also a little bit disappointed, because I couldn''t see the arrows (as seen in Ellen''s and jcrow''s rings) with just my eyes. Should I be able to? Is that only visible in ACA diamonds? Is it the multiple light sources at the jeweler? Are the pictures in the gallery enhanced somehow?
[...]

Does someone else have an answer to this question? Cleo''s ring is AGS-0 and I can see two arrows in her avatar. Is it lighting?

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Date: 4/18/2008 6:58:04 PM
Author: Klunker

Date: 4/17/2008 9:43:32 PM
Author:Klunker



[...]
I am also a little bit disappointed, because I couldn''t see the arrows (as seen in Ellen''s and jcrow''s rings) with just my eyes. Should I be able to? Is that only visible in ACA diamonds? Is it the multiple light sources at the jeweler? Are the pictures in the gallery enhanced somehow?
[...]

Does someone else have an answer to this question? Cleo''s ring is AGS-0 and I can see two arrows in her avatar. Is it lighting?

Hi Klunker...The arrow effect is created by the obstructed light from viewer''s head or camera, etc.

Mine''s not H&A or ACA but stacks up pretty well.

I was surprised to see the arrows myself, now I see them all the time.

 

[Klunker]

Thanks for your explanation Lisa,

your diamond in the picture looks simply stunning!
This is the effect that I am after - love the symmetry - but unfortunately it did not work in diamond number one.

I now think the reason I didn''t see the arrows was simply due to the fact that the diamond I saw was not a real AGS-0. (And maybe I have to look straight from the top to obstruct the light.)

I am off to look at diamond three again.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 4/18/2008 6:58:04 PM
Author: Klunker

Date: 4/17/2008 9:43:32 PM
Author:Klunker



[...]
I am also a little bit disappointed, because I couldn''t see the arrows (as seen in Ellen''s and jcrow''s rings) with just my eyes. Should I be able to? Is that only visible in ACA diamonds? Is it the multiple light sources at the jeweler? Are the pictures in the gallery enhanced somehow?
[...]

Does someone else have an answer to this question? Cleo''s ring is AGS-0 and I can see two arrows in her avatar. Is it lighting?

Hi Klunker. Lisa provided a nice answer. The labs don’t grade cut precision. (Unfortunately in my opinion) It takes extremely precise faceting and balancing one facet perfectly opposite the other, with all seventeen of the major facets in perfect harmony to create crisp patterns – and it takes the right obscuration or head shadow to see these effects. “Arrows” are the pattern you see face up in supersymmetrical rounds. Normally we will not see them with the eye because as you move the diamond even a little some of the facets that were obscured are now gathering light while others will go into obscuration. It is this wonderful fact that gives us the sparkle (scintillation) that makes our eyes and hearts so happy when we see a diamond.

Here is a thread with more explanation and graphics from Paul-Antwerp and John Pollard, the educator formerly known as John Quixote:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/does-ags-000-arrows-pattern.74319/

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

P.S. Sometimes, if you cup one hand around a diamond, making a tube of your fingers and palm, you can move the diamond just right to catch the arrows.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I would choose #3 over #2 especially because it is 2 color grades higher and is very nicely cut!

If you want to go with WF, I''d look at the H color stones in the .75 range. I dont see any VS2''s, but that would be my personal preference over the I color.

Here''s a new stone that just came in. I''d want to see what the inclusions look like since it is SI1:

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-912923.htm

 

[whatmeworry]

Date: 4/18/2008 6:58:04 PM
Author: Klunker

Date: 4/17/2008 9:43:32 PM
Author:Klunker



[...]
I am also a little bit disappointed, because I couldn''t see the arrows (as seen in Ellen''s and jcrow''s rings) with just my eyes. Should I be able to? Is that only visible in ACA diamonds? Is it the multiple light sources at the jeweler? Are the pictures in the gallery enhanced somehow?
[...]

Does someone else have an answer to this question? Cleo''s ring is AGS-0 and I can see two arrows in her avatar. Is it lighting?

Enhanced? Yes, they are highly magnified! Look at the diamond through a loupe if you want to see the arrows. You are looking at them with a loupe aren''t you? The B&M should be happy to lend you one.

 

[Klunker]

Wink, thank you for your answer as well.
The link you posted and especially the graphic in it explained it very well. So the arrows are hard to see or capture on film. You need a single light source and a light obstruction from either your head or the camera. And you will need a certain angle and distance to the diamond.
But most certainly you will need an AGS-0 diamond, which also shows a good IS or an ACA with true H&A.

I will try your cup trick next time I go and see a diamond. I guess that resembles the lower part of a H&A viewer?

I just returned from the other jeweler.
He showed me diamond three again (the Canadian H&A) and I was able to look through a H&A viewer he organized for me on short notice from his broker.

I would say it looked good. All hearts showed up OK and were equally sized. They were also equally separated from the pointy center pieces. I just thought that it was not as crisp as I have seen on WF pictures. Their hearts are perfectly white and sharp, not slightly washed out pink.

He also allowed me to take the diamond outside into the sun (single light source

) and I tried what Lisa explained to me this morning. And yeah, with my head directly over the table and adjusting the viewing distance I was able to see the arrows. Mostly the center part of it under the table.

On my way home I decided to have a look at a Hearts on Fire diamond to compare the H&A picture I just looked at. And what I saw with the HoF was a difference of night and day! Crisp, white, perfectly shaped hearts and I didn't have to move my eyes around to make the picture great. It looked great from the get go. This is what I remembered from the pictures from WF. But this puppy was out of my league, unfortunately, with a price difference of $3800...

And now after reading John Pollard's post and the link within, I would say the Canadian H&A is a little better version of the "Near H&A" in the center of his picture and the HoF was an example of the "true H&A" on the left.

I guess I am set for an ACA now...

Thanks for your opinion Diamondseeker. I agree, number one and two are out.
As a PriceScoper though I am trying to maximize the diamond within my budget and I am thinking that I shouldn't go with a G, VS1, but rather with H-I VS2. But unfortunately there are none available right now.
That's why I am now also looking at SI1's at WF. Thanks for the link by the way; I didn't see this one yet. Must have popped up just recently. I like the H color better, too. Now there are three SI1's at WF. Hopefully one of them is fully eye-clean.

I let you know on Monday!

Thanks everybody, this is truly a great forum.

 

[Klunker]

Date: 4/19/2008 4:25:31 PM
Author: whatmeworry

Enhanced? Yes, they are highly magnified! Look at the diamond through a loupe if you want to see the arrows. You are looking at them with a loupe aren''t you? The B&M should be happy to lend you one.

I meant the avatar pictures I saw here on the forum. They are just normal pictures and I thought they might have been contrast enhanced to show the arrow effect better. Turns out they are just great at taking pictures. I will certainly ask them to help me, once I have my diamond.

I actually bought myself 10x and 30x loupes together with my Ideal-Scope.

 

[Klunker]

Just found this old thread about taking pictures of the arrows here: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/capturing-arrows-in-photos.49535/ and they suggest backlighting.

 

[Klunker]

Date: 4/18/2008 6:50:51 PM
Author: Klunker

Date: 4/18/2008 4:51:03 PM
Author: JulieN
people don't want to buy AGS 2s. AGS1, maybe. If it didn't get a zero, they wouldn't buy the one that has a cut grade.

That's what I was thinking.
I eMailed AGS and they answered that they will not deal with customers, but that I could have my jeweler ask for the cut grade.

Diamond number one has turned out to be an AGS-1.
This diamond qualifies as ideal in both AGS proportions and AGS performance grades however the polish and the symmetry have been categorized as “excellent” rather than ideal.