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just goin for a looksee at a B&M, any advice?

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viscera912

Shiny_Rock
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Feb 15, 2004
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hello everyone,

ive been learning for about 3 or 4 months now and i want to go to some jewelry stores just to look around. i am looking to purchase a princess between .6-.7 carat and probably around an E or F color. i have learned a lot from this forum and i just want to go look around, not to purchase a diamond as i will be purchasing online. however, i haven''t ever stepped into a jewelry store and i was just curious what things i should remember when going in. basically i want to see what a princess in that carat range looks like. i know about stores and their wonderful lighting ploys and what not. also, thanks to this website i feel knowledgeable in weeding out bad cut stones and finding the best of cuts. do most jewelry stores have loose stones there or are they all in settings allready? i want to see if i can tell the differences between various table and depth percentages, basically i want to put my knowledge to use. so any advice is greatly appreciated, this is prob a weird question to post but anyway here goes...

jason
 
You will probably get some great responses, hopefully since we share a similar story you appreciate my advice. Random order.

- I am sorry if this sounds harsh to the B&M folks out there, but be very careful not to feel sorry for the sales guy/gal who appears to be trying so hard for you. Remember that you worked even harder for the money you are going to spend.
- Go to B&M's with a good reputation to see a better selection of stones.
- Save money and consider G color, and do not worry too much about clarity so long as it is eye-clean. Of course you may have different priorities but you could go a little bigger that way.
- Consider investing $30 in an IdealScope, comes in a matter of days, it will help you no end in seeing the difference in stones.
- Print out and take with you the AGA chart for Princess - http://www.gemappraisers.com/
- If possible, find out if your S.O. likes Princess. When cut a .6-.7 ct princess will look smaller than a round
- Ask the jeweler to show you rounds anyway, so you can compare and get a good idea what they are like.
- Ask the jeweler to accompany you outside, or into a less well lit area to view a stone.
- You will only be able to see a difference with table/depth etc if they have a great selection. Chances are everything they will have will be poor, unless you go to a dealer that sells some of the branded stones - actually see if their is a Hearts-on-Fire or EightStar dealer nearby and go look at those to see good cuts.
- Do not buy anything until you are convinced it is the right stone.
- Give them your requirements and ask them to get some in.

Good luck

Andrew
 
Andrew has given you some of the most comprehensive and true statements that there is very little I could add but, go out there and do your searching in person, because nothing beats the experience of SEEING a stone.

With princesses, they WILL look smaller than round stones. Shaped stone always fall short on size (with the same ct weight) and fire and even sparkle.

Avoid LARGE tables that are larger than the depth percentage. If you do see them, note if there is a wide ring on clear glass that doesn't reflect in the center (called fish eyes) but also note how it can look bigger than it's supposed to at that carat weight.

Be assured of what you know, always be polite and listen, but don't be dissuaded or PURSUADED, at least not until a unbiased 3rd party (like us PS people) can say yeah or nay...

My only disagreement with Andrew was that Hearts on Fire didn't impress me in sparkle as much. I saw it in the viewer and thought that was neat, but it sparkled no better than a great hearts and arrows next to it. NOT worth the branded premium price, IMO...
 
hey great advice!! ya know, my girlfriend just said she liked princesses, however, now that i think about it i don't know if she is aware of other shapes of stones. i would like to think she has seen RB's before but who knows! oh yes and about color, about the G color, would a G or H at that size of a stone be about the same as an E and F. i remember reading somewhere on this site that as the carat gets larger or smaller that the color change becomes more apparent? i forgot which way that color thing leaned. i never really thought about checking into RB's so i haven't really invested time into learning about them. but ill check some out, i suppose ill have to get acquainted with the nitty gritty details. either way im just going to the store to look at stones and not purchasing any of them. i plan to purchase from one of the many reputable vendors here. about the idealscope, i just don't know if it would be useful to me because i am gonna be purchasing online so the rock will just be shipped to an appraiser. thus, would there really be a need for me to check out the idealscope image for myself? im guessing that these vendors here on PS would send idealscope images if they had them; since i will be telling them ive been on PS for a while they would know that i would probaly incquire about an idealscope image. it would be the BEST idea if i was to purchase from a B&M store but im just goin to check out stones. i don't know, i may just get one cuz im totally intoxicated by diamonds now and i want to learn as much as i can about them!!! thanks for the responses so far!

jason
 
With shaped stones, you will notice more color in stones. Those with impeccible eye sight like MINE, can see a G or H with a slight yellow tinge (in the 2ct range I was looking for in radiants) but MOST people with normal eyes will accept a G or some well cut H's as being WHITE...You can't go wrong in 2cts or over in a G, F or E. D is only necessary is you have phenomenal eyes, OR you want the BEST color, and are willing to sacrifice for it. A status thing.

With larger size comes more square millimeter for flaws and color to be seen. That's why larger stones (over 1.5 or so) I recommend F colors or so (one grade up or down is OK) and VS2 clarity (one grade up is also a good bargain, but one grade down to SI1 can be tricky, if it's not "eye clean" meaning the center is clear of the imperfections). So I always say stick with a good G, VS2 and you can't do wrong...

Either way, go out there and see as many as you can. Also go online first am familiarize yourself with the price points of the different colors and clarities at the same or different carat weights. Familiarize yourself with the AGA charts, and you will be a star when you see them in mall stores and B&Ms... Good luck and let us know how it goes!!!
 
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On 4/12/2004 11:21:01 PM Nicrez wrote:




My only disagreement with Andrew was that Hearts on Fire didn't impress me in sparkle as much. I saw it in the viewer and thought that was neat, but it sparkled no better than a great hearts and arrows next to it. NOT worth the branded premium price, IMO...----------------


Nicrez, I did not get the benefit of seeing anything like an H&A next to it... and you are right, not worth the price. It may help Jason to see some of these better (not best) cuts.
 
Once you have a chance to see E vs F vs G you will see what we mean. Chances are you will see more rounds out on your travels. "Good G, VS2" - i like that!

IdealScope - I too will probably buy online but I got one for the educational value, plus who knows you might find the diamond in the rough
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So do not be afraid to use it, if you get it. Alot came together for me once I got one and it basically sealed the deal for me to want to buy online since very few stones looked even mediocre thru it. For example, I looked at some Princess stones, all around 1.5 ct, various colors and clarity and it was very hard for me to see major differences under store conditions. I then looked at them all thru the IdealScope and noticed lots of white, especially in the center and edges and the fish-eye effect. Then, upon removing the IdealScope I saw how those areas of the stone just looked dull. I then used the IdealScope on HOF Dreams and saw the big difference. Now I am determined to get a well cut stone, the total package and from retailer that wants to work with me.
 
He he!

You may want to look on certs for total depth before deciding how big a princess cut of this weight looks. I would stay below 70%...

And get an Iscope by all means
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a couple hours after reading some of these posts i was still wondering if my girlfriend really didn't like RB's or didn't know anything about them. so i asked her and she was set on princesses. however, she said she wouldn't mind an RB....oh wait let me put it in her words, "you get me whatever you want as long as its between those two." now guys all over know that when your girl says something like this you are just settin yourself up for some issues down the road. ok so now im stuck, i ran a PS search to see what is comparable in my price range and i found stones that were smaller in carat weight than what i was looking at for princesses in the same price range. i know that RB's are sposed to look bigger at the same carat weight as a fancy shape, however, does that mean i have to suffer an almost .04-.07 drop in carat weight. my price range was at the tops 1600 usa dollars. and i was finding princesses in the .60-.62 carat weight range. so now im all messed up and i don't know where i want to concentrate my search on. i need to clarify that i have not done any learning and studying about RB's so i could have run a poor search string. obviously, if carat weight was my only regard than i wouldn't be posting on this site. thus, i want the best cut i can afford and make an educated purchase knowing that a better cut is way better than a "bigger" carat weight stone. if i had to make a decision now, i would stick with getting her a princess and be done with the whole thing since i have spent lots of time learning about princesses...however i could end up changing my mind, why does it feel like im back at square one
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jason
 
Carat weight does not mean 'size' - the area of the stone does. Princess cuts will almot always be smaller for the same weight (unless you get a 60% deep one - not likely, and not likely very nice).

You may find that very deep stones get discounted for their small 'look': so if one who really wants to call weight 'size' can end up with an inexpensive 3/4cts that looks like the 0.6cts he would ahve got for the same money. It does happen...

So if cut and budget are the terms of the deal, you might want to take into account size (face up) not weight.


I would say that a near-ideal round (meaning nice HCA, no H&A premium) would best fit all requirements so far. You might want to look among EGL certified stones with 'safe' grades (menaing, with little chance to apppear terribly tintyed or included), 'cause those have atractive prices and cut data on the cert.

Does this make sense?

Actually, I think 99% of buyers just go for "white-clean-brilliant" diamonds, not the math about them
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and would not be dead-on focused on a shape and set of paper grades before getting to look at many, many stones, and make a hobby of it.
 
For example, it sounds liek these three would have about the same size face up:

0.53 cts F-VS2 Radiant

O.5 cts D-Si1 Round

0.58cts, D-VS1, Princess

As a rule, you woudl need a square with the side 90% the diameter of a round for the two to have the same area face up. Princess cuts are cut deeper, so they would e havier than the respective roud 'equivalent'. However, princess cuts are also priced somewhat less than rounds (and certainnly less than those rounds carying a premium for the cut). So you might have to work your way through a bunch of 'numbers'.

I am not sure I get the point with the color grades for this size: G/H sound just as white to me under 1ct.
 
I went through the same process that you're going through. My girlfriend fell in love with a princess cut diamond she saw a while back at a jewlery store. I later went back and they tried to sell me a .91 F VS1 for, get this, 6500. They did not even have the GIA cert. As it turns out, it wasn't even their diamond. When I asked the sales lady about the cut she said that it was excellent. When I asked more specific questions she was a little hazy, she didn't even know what a sarin was. I told her that GIA certs don't grade cut, at least not the specific measurements like crown height, paviallion angle etc, and she responded that GIA's do grade cut. When I told her that I was planning on buying my stone online, she gave the whole "you can't trust someone online" speech. She went on about how you might never see that person again later on down the road because they went out of business and you might want to trade up...blah blah blah. I wish I could have taped it, I was trying really hard not tell her what I was really thinking. I told her that I found a similar diamond, from Union Diamond, for less than 3000 and she starting ranting about how their was something sketchy about the price because it way way below market value (yeah her market value of 6500 for not even a carat).
I don't want to speak to that lady again. The only reason I will be going back is because they have the setting that my girlfriend liked. Perhaps I'll go in when I get my stone so that I can show her the far superior diamond that I bought online for more than half of what she was trying get me for for a similar diamond, he he. So here is the diamond that I am in the process of purchasing

Princess .87 F VS1 GIA
5.35x5.19x3.83
Depth 73.8
Table 70
Girdle thn-thk
Sym Good
Polish Very good
And that "sketchy" price of 2793

All I can tell you is don't even consider buying at B&M's. I do advise to go and see them and get an idea of what your looking for. At the same time, have fun and be amuzed at how rediculous some of these sales people sound!
 
Don't take your cash, credit card, checkbook or drivers liscence with you. You might become fodder for a great sales pitch.
 
keep in mind that while princess stones look smaller than rounds per carat weight, they look larger than round stones of the same mm measurement.... Hmmm, there was a calculation somewhere around...that a __ mm princess looks like a __ mm round. Picture a circle in a square...the round fits into the square e/t they have the same diameter!!! That made me stop feeling so "bad" about loving princess stones!
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ALso, if a stone only has crappola, you might not get an actual reading of what a stone in that carat weight looks like....!
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Best of luck!
 
oops..."if a store only has crappola"
 
When I'm seriously looking but not planning on buying, I usually say that up front too. "I'm looking for a ____ but I'm not planning on buying today."

Also don't forget to look at the stones under the table, by the window, and even, if allowed, outside.
 
Jason:

I am one of those evil B&M retail jewelers you are so afraid of.

I do strongly suggest you look around at every available resource before you buy that stone you decide on. You might even consider giving a retail jeweler an opportunity to sell you the stone you think you want.

If you are willing to let a retail jeweler spend his time, effort and money on bringing stones in for you to see, I would think you would consider buying from them.

Be honest and up front when you are dealing with that evil retailer and it might just surprise you that maybe he isn't so bad afterall.

Not all retailers are dishonest. My guess is there are more honest retailers than there are Internet sellers. Don't let these types of forums dissuade you from shopping locally. After you buy that diamond you will need to have it serviced from time to time. Are you going to send it back the the Internet seller to have it checked? Want it polished for a night out on the town, who is going to do that, the Internet seller?

I know my position won't be popular here, but people need to understand all sides of the equation before the traditional retailer is no longer around to service their needs.

Best regards,

Scott
 
Scott, welcome to the forum.
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Please stick arround. The more different views the better the dialog.
 
"Doc"/Scott has a point. I bought my branded stone from a B&M who doesn't even have a website. He's a NYC jeweler, and I STILL trust him. He spent the most time with us, showed us color differences in the stones we looked at, and provided us with certs and info as requested.

He's a sweet guy and I knew that after three months of looking around, this guy was the one we were going to buy from. Other places WERE cheaper, but he earned our trust and he's the guy who had that ring ready in an hour and threw in some "extras" for us.

Internet is great, but if you are lucky enough to find a good B&M, then maybe a relationship is a good idea! Either way, whoever sells you the stone, make sure they treat you well and answer your questions as best they can. I actually helped a jeweler (for over 25 years) learn about Radiants, as the sold them, but didn't get into the technicality of it. She still is so friendly when she sees me, and I have taken people back to her as a way of saying I liked your business!
 


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On 4/13/2004 1:15:34 PM Doc wrote:





Jason:

I am one of those evil B&M retail jewelers you are so afraid of.

Be honest and up front when you are dealing with that evil retailer and it might just surprise you that maybe he isn't so bad afterall.

Not all retailers are dishonest. My guess is there are more honest retailers than there are Internet sellers.

----------------

you know, i re-read jason's posts, and i see nothing that justifies remarks like that. nowhere did he use terms like "evil" or "dishonest." he even said he would prefer to buy from a b&m store, he just wanted to buy informed.



i agree with leonid, your input is welcome, but you might try developing a somewhat thicker skin. just some friendly advice.
 
Hi, Scott.....a warm welcome to PS.




Since you are new to us, let's dispel a myth or two right away. "These types of forums", as you call us, are not on a mission to dissuade consumers from shopping anywhere....either online or off. The point of this forum is to help customers learn enough about their purchases to purchase confidently and without regret.




Somewhere along the way, some "other venues" have insisted on painting forums like this as "anti-B&M", and while some threads do grouse about B&M stores, there are several that praise them too, as you see in Nicrez's post. I'm happy for everyone who buys diamond they love with no regrets and without being misled.....and I'm happy for them regardless of their choices of vendor--online or offline.




You asked "After you buy that diamond you will need to have it serviced from time to time. Are you going to send it back the the Internet seller to have it checked? Want it polished for a night out on the town, who is going to do that, the Internet seller?"




With every due respect, many of the B&M folks talk like there is only ONE purchase ever to a customer, and the implication seems to be that customers have to pick a B&M jeweler OR an internet seller.....and nothing could be further from the truth.




The fact is that most customers shop for jewelry more than once. Therefore, there is no need to limit one's self to ONE avenue or the other. We bought my engagement diamond from an online vendor. I'm having repairs done to another piece by my local jeweler. I'm also purchasing a pendant from my local seller.




Believe me when I tell you, my local jeweler is going to "service" all my jewelry...not just that which I buy from him. He cleans/polishes my jewelry for that special night out......even my engagement diamond. He recognizes that doing so encourages me to expand my purchase relationship with him.




I've gone into eight different local jewelry stores....and EVERY one of them has *offered* to check the prongs and clean my diamond without even being asked to. Hence, it's tough for me to get behind the mantra of "who's going to service you".




There is plenty of business to go around. Having an online vendor and having a local vendor are not mutually exclusive of one another, and when you guys realize that, perhaps you'll stop having a keniption over "these types of forums" and online vendors and breathe a little easier.
 
Doc, with all due respect:
----------------
My guess is there are more honest retailers than there are Internet sellers. Don't let these types of forums dissuade you from shopping locally.
----------------
And yet on your website you say:
----------------
...You might be surprised to learn that an old established jewelry store may have a jeweler with only a few years of bench experience; if they have one at all.
----------------
Sounds rather opposite to your post above...
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Anyway, I'm afraid you have a wrong perception of this site' attitude toward B&M jewelers.

I have a lot of respect for those B&M vendors who have class and decency and do great without promoting themselves: Steve Livingston, Wink, Iceman, Garry Holloway, Greentree, and others. They are not bashing internet or Pricescope but winning people’s respects because of their personality, knowledge and intellect. None of them offer to do business on the forum but share knowledge and enjoy conversations with consumers.
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... people need to understand all sides of the equation ...
----------------
I totally agree. That's why we need more good and knowledgeable B&M retailers to participate here in a constructive dialog, not steering up a fight and bashing the Internet.
 
----------------
On 4/13/2004 1:15:34 PM Doc wrote:

Jason:

I am one of those evil B&M retail jewelers you are so afraid of.


Not all retailers are dishonest. My guess is there are more honest retailers than there are Internet sellers. Don't let these types of forums dissuade you from shopping locally. After you buy that diamond you will need to have it serviced from time to time. Are you going to send it back the the Internet seller to have it checked? Want it polished for a night out on the town, who is going to do that, the Internet seller?

I know my position won't be popular here, but people need to understand all sides of the equation before the traditional retailer is no longer around to service their needs.

Best regards,

Scott----------------


Many of us are *here* because we looked for a respite from B&M stores. Many of us tried to shop at our local retailer. But, to no avail.

I am a retailer. I certainly know that every retailer is not dishonest. I prefer to spend my money in a physical location w/ being able to see something in person. I ended up buying my 3c with a blend of the internet & a B&M store. Believe me, it was much easier to buy on-line. I visited (gave a chance to the evil retailers as you refer to them) many B&M. To say it kindly, many gave me misinformation (though my middle age eyes are pretty blind, one sales person failed to see the black inclusion that even *my* eyes could see). Out of sentimentality, we even contacted the jeweler who we successfully purchased our original e-ring from (back in the early 80's he understood cut - knew Lazare Kaplan was his competition - and ordered in several stones for us). Before I drove 3 hours, I told him *exactly* what I wanted & gave him a week to find the stones. To his credit, he did order in some stones with decent cut; but, I didn't ask for VVS/E stones. I saw nothing that I specifically came to see. I could go on & on. I finally turned to a trusted Estate Jeweler friend to secure me a stone at a percentage we both were comfortable with.

Fast forward a few months, I was in the market for a Rolex. Knowing full well that I wanted to buy my Rolex from an authorized dealer, I went to Carlyle & Co. I was told that the watch that I wanted did not exist. I knew better. Again, I turned to my Estate Jeweler and he directed me to a jeweler two states away that knew the product. Why did I have to jump through so many hoops to get the watch I wanted rather than settle for what Carlyle & Co. had in stock. They couldn't even tell me the difference between a date/datejust/oyster.

I am *not* one bit afraid of you. I am gun-shy to walking into more misinformation. I am a middle-aged savvy buyer. I buy for a living. I would prefer to buy from a store. But, when they don't have the product nor can they talk intelligently about *their* product, then I walk elsewhere.

Just a consumer. And, I find sheer notion that (not pointing the finger at you) B&M jewelers believe we are shills on PS laughable.
 

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On 4/13/2004 1:55:55 PM fire&ice wrote:


I find sheer notion that (not pointing the finger at you) B&M jewelers believe we are shills on PS laughable.
----------------

HA! I *wish* I was truly as powerful as they seem to think I am.


Then I could RULE THE WORLD (spoken in a ridiculous James Cameron tone). hehehehhehe
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Jason,

I go to stores for a bit of window shopping from time to time. I've been looking seriously for a month now. I'm purchasing my own loupe and idealscope, but jewelers will let you use their loupe too. I just think bringing your own "tools of the trade" will silently show you mean business.

Take this opportunity to view a wide range of diamonds, not just the ones that you are interested in. That way, you will learn to train your eye. I would pick a variety of different stores too. Big chains, mall stores, small private stores. Go to a variety of different areas in your town: city, suburb. Sometimes tell them you're only looking; maybe sometimes tell them you have a particular deadline.

Carry a white business card on you to judge color. If you want to mix it up, bring a female friend to pose as your fiance. I like doing this with open houses and car dealerships. But then again there might be something wrong with me.
 
wow!!! i just came in from the hospital and much to my surprise find a bunch of great things stirring around in here...
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anyway, let me just say this out in the open, i have no qualms about b&m's. frankly, ive never stepped foot into a jewelry store but from reading many posts on this forum, and many other places online, regarding the treatment and sales ethics i am rather skeptical about the B&M stores. i have garned quite a wealth of knowledge in the last couple of months from PS and I feel very confident going to a store and not being swayed by a sales pitch. i agree with doc's comment about there are some good b&m sales personal and stores. but i have never bashed them and i won't bash them cuz my mother and father raised me not to speak bad upon someone behind their back
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...wow, if my parents could have heard me say that one they might help me pay for this rock....whew ok going on....im planning to visit a store this friday for a couple hours. in short, i just want to see stones and more stones and then some more stones! i want to see princesses within my carat range, what a d color stone looks like as opposed to a G color stone, differences between tables and depth percentages, etc. basically i just want a hands on experience with diamonds. hopefully i will receive the loving tender care that a customer should receive and they should know right off the bat that i am not there to purchase a stone. in fact i'm probably coming from the hospital so ill be dressed in med scrubs!! thanks ya'll for the responses regarding the face up measurements and the topic regarding a stone looking bigger for its weight. my big concern is a price cap of 1600 that is my max budget. if i can find the best cut princess for that price cap im going to be happy. it doesn't have to be a big rock because from what ive learned its all about the cut. and goin off of that i have found princesses within the .60-.62 carat range that are well cut. about the whole RB issue, i just need to learn more about them. but im seeing the carat weight drop for the RB's as compared to princesses to stay under my budget of 1600? of course i could be performing an improper search string for the RB's though. anyway, thanks a bunch to all who have contributed to this question. you can be sure i will be posting a followup about my adventure on friday. the other thing is that i probably will be getting a single stone solitare ring, i don't think she is a fan of the one big stone and 2 small stones beside it. perhaps if i learn more about RB's and look at the stone compared with princesses i may just change over to the RB....along with some convincing from some of you otherwise....at least ill have nicrez on my side for the princess!!!

jason
 
Jason, I think you have hit on an important clarification to an oft-made point. Often, folks will point out correctly that a properly cut RB will look bigger than a properly cut princess or asscher or the like of the same carat weight. But for most people that is not the most important comparison. The comparison of the moment is which one looks the biggest size for a certain amount of money. I was searching for an asscher. I noticed that, per my calculations, the surface size of the asscher I ended up purchasing was about the same surface size as RBs of the same color and clarity that were 15-17% less carat weight.

So that means you are paying for extra carat weight in the asscher? Not really. A little further research showed that those same RBs, even though less carat weight, cost about 10-12% MORE than the asscher I bought. I am sure that these ratios would vary depending on the size, color and clarity range one is looking for, and they obviously vary depending on the depth of the shaped stone you are looking for, but in my case the apparent size of the asscher was bigger per dollar spent, which was the most relevant criteria for me.
 
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