Judging Cut Quality in Fancy Yellows/Fancy Colors?

[kimikocat]

I recently began searching for a fancy yellow diamond, for a ring project. Silly me, I thought this would be easy. It has turned out to be rather more difficult than anticipated. I did my due diligence and read as much as I could about fancy colored stones, but now find myself wondering how to judge cut quality for the fancy colors?

Two separate vendors have told me that one judges fancy color diamonds by size and color, not by the quality of the cut. I would like to find a stone with good fire and brilliance, and I am doing my comparison shopping online because not many local jewelers seem to offer fancy colors at a reasonable price, so I wind up looking at photographs/videos and then reading the certs/trying to process the numbers.

A local B&M called in a 1.18 carat cushion-cut fancy yellow for me, and I went down to the store to see it. Under the store lights, the stone sparkled (of course!) but seemed a bit watery in the center. I mentioned to another vendor, who was also searching for fancy yellows for me, that I had seen a fancy yellow that seemed nice but the "watery" appearance in the center concerned me. He wrote back that all fancy yellows leak light a little bit through the center, and now I am wondering if that is true?

The "watery" stone in question has the following specs (taken from the GIA report):

Shape: Cushion Mod. Brilliant
Measurements: 6.53 x 5.53 x 3.61 mm
Color/origin:

Natural
Fancy
Yellow
Even
VS1

Polish: Good
Symmetry: Good
Fluorescence: Med. blue
Comments: Crown Angles greater than 40 degrees.
Depth: 67.1%
table: 65%

girdle: medium - very thick

What do you think of these numbers? Several vendors have warned me that I cannot use "ideal-cut" numbers to guide my judgment of a fancy yellow stone. They say that ideal cuts maximize the "whiteness" of a stone, and not the brilliance, so I can''t use those specs as guidelines to find well-cut, firey/brilliant fancy colors.

Would a slightly shallower stone (a vendor recommended a stone with 64.5% depth and 65% table) w/o high crown angles be "prettier"? Or would a deeper stone (say, with a depth closer to 70% and a table in the 63-65% range) be more beautiful?

Help! I get more confused by the day! How should I judge cut quality in a fancy yellow stone?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The better the cut quality the less colour you will see in the diamond.

What you are told by vendors is not snake oil.

But make sure the stone you buy does not have too many dark contrasting areas.

You can not do this by numbers

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/25/2008 4:30:57 PM
Author:kimikocat
I recently began searching for a fancy yellow diamond, for a ring project. Silly me, I thought this would be easy. It has turned out to be rather more difficult than anticipated. I did my due diligence and read as much as I could about fancy colored stones, but now find myself wondering how to judge cut quality for the fancy colors?

Two separate vendors have told me that one judges fancy color diamonds by size and color, not by the quality of the cut. I would like to find a stone with good fire and brilliance, and I am doing my comparison shopping online because not many local jewelers seem to offer fancy colors at a reasonable price, so I wind up looking at photographs/videos and then reading the certs/trying to process the numbers.

Thats sort of true..., there is a consensus that- first: Color Second: Size Third: clarity Fourth: Cut...., but that will bring you to the majority (most common) of Diamonds that are cut to specific proportions to deepen the hue via human intervention.

Then there are the Diamonds that are cut to regular (colorless) standard cuts proportions that actually possess the genuine body color..., (e.g. no need for special cuts as nature gave them the true color....

)

A local B&M called in a 1.18 carat cushion-cut fancy yellow for me, and I went down to the store to see it. Under the store lights, the stone sparkled (of course!) but seemed a bit watery in the center. I mentioned to another vendor, who was also searching for fancy yellows for me, that I had seen a fancy yellow that seemed nice but the ''watery'' appearance in the center concerned me. He wrote back that all fancy yellows leak light a little bit through the center, and now I am wondering if that is true?

If cut correctly at the right angles..., there shouldnt be leakage in the center..., (unless a polished culet is the cause), contrast is an enemy of Diamonds cut for maximum color capture..., one of the techniques used is painting (applying the lower girdle facets nearly at the same angle as the pavilion mains) the brillianteering on the pavilion which reduces contrast and so the color seems optically more even..., but when tilted the widowing/leakage appears! (thats the cause of the watery appearance).

The ''watery'' stone in question has the following specs (taken from the GIA report):

Shape: Cushion Mod. Brilliant
Measurements: 6.53 x 5.53 x 3.61 mm
Color/origin:

Natural
Fancy
Yellow
Even
VS1

Polish: Good
Symmetry: Good
Fluorescence: Med. blue can lighten the appearance of a lighter hue''d yellow..., it affects the fancy color just as it affects the I-K colors!)
Comments: Crown Angles greater than 40 degrees.
Depth: 67.1%
table: 65%

girdle: medium - very thick

What do you think of these numbers? Several vendors have warned me that I cannot use ''ideal-cut'' numbers to guide my judgment of a fancy yellow stone. They say that ideal cuts maximize the ''whiteness'' of a stone, and not the brilliance, so I can''t use those specs as guidelines to find well-cut, firey/brilliant fancy colors.

Would a slightly shallower stone (a vendor recommended a stone with 64.5% depth and 65% table) w/o high crown angles be ''prettier''? Or would a deeper stone (say, with a depth closer to 70% and a table in the 63-65% range) be more beautiful?

Cut for color type fancy colors are usually cut with high CA and CH''s and incorporate larger tables..., the reason is the above mentioned ''painted LGF''s"..., the pavilion is the cause for the optically even yellow appearance..., so the larger the table the larger pavilion view you will see!

Help! I get more confused by the day! How should I judge cut quality in a fancy yellow stone?

The more you see the more you''ll know what you like! Numbers wont give you anything and pictures NEVER reveal the actual color...

If you have time..., I recommend this thread (as it shows two sides to the coin

)

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-light-yellow-fancy-or-cape.66898/

 

[kimikocat]

Leave it to me to create a complicated, anxiety-inducing project! Thank you so much, Garry and DiaGem, for responding to my query. I hopped over to your suggested thread, DiaGem. Fascinating, heady stuff. I did notice that diamonds graded Fancy Yellow (not fancy light yellow, but actually fancy yellow) would turn transparent, or even grey, when tilted to the side. The thread''s discussion of cuts and color is thought-provoking and it makes me feel like I''ve jumped down the rabbit hole! I start asking myself if I actually know what I think is beautiful in a stone... If only I had a tray of stones to handle while reading everyone''s comments...

The cut comparison table on your thread, DiaGem (the one with the various cuts, viewed under different lighting conditions), made it clear that some cuts are much better at maximizing color and brilliance than others. The cushion, I guess, isn''t really one of those. On the chart, it seems to be consistently "softer" and less firey than the others.

Question: Do certain cutters create more beautiful stones? Does it matter where a stone is cut? One vendor told me that they cut all their stones in Africa. Another vendor says he sources his stones from all over, and a third cuts in India.

I''m also hearing that I need to see large numbers of these stones before pulling the trigger. Do I just need to tour the local B&Ms, asking for fancy yellows, until I feel like I''ve seen enough to trust my eyes? Is there a better way to approach this?

More questions below, woven into DiaGem''s post...

Date: 8/25/2008 5:27:41 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/25/2008 4:30:57 PM

Author:kimikocat

I recently began searching for a fancy yellow diamond, for a ring project. Silly me, I thought this would be easy. It has turned out to be rather more difficult than anticipated. I did my due diligence and read as much as I could about fancy colored stones, but now find myself wondering how to judge cut quality for the fancy colors?


Two separate vendors have told me that one judges fancy color diamonds by size and color, not by the quality of the cut. I would like to find a stone with good fire and brilliance, and I am doing my comparison shopping online because not many local jewelers seem to offer fancy colors at a reasonable price, so I wind up looking at photographs/videos and then reading the certs/trying to process the numbers.


Thats sort of true..., there is a consensus that- first: Color Second: Size Third: clarity Fourth: Cut...., but that will bring you to the majority (most common) of Diamonds that are cut to specific proportions to deepen the hue via human intervention.



What are the proportions that cutters typically use to deepen the hue?


Then there are the Diamonds that are cut to regular (colorless) standard cuts proportions that actually possess the genuine body color..., (e.g. no need for special cuts as nature gave them the true color....

)



A local B&M called in a 1.18 carat cushion-cut fancy yellow for me, and I went down to the store to see it. Under the store lights, the stone sparkled (of course!) but seemed a bit watery in the center. I mentioned to another vendor, who was also searching for fancy yellows for me, that I had seen a fancy yellow that seemed nice but the ''watery'' appearance in the center concerned me. He wrote back that all fancy yellows leak light a little bit through the center, and now I am wondering if that is true?


If cut correctly at the right angles..., there shouldnt be leakage in the center..., (unless a polished culet is the cause), contrast is an enemy of Diamonds cut for maximum color capture..., one of the techniques used is painting (applying the lower girdle facets nearly at the same angle as the pavilion mains) the brillianteering on the pavilion which reduces contrast and so the color seems optically more even..., but when tilted the widowing/leakage appears! (thats the cause of the watery appearance).

i][/b]


The ''watery'' stone in question has the following specs (taken from the GIA report):


Shape: Cushion Mod. Brilliant

Measurements: 6.53 x 5.53 x 3.61 mm

Color/origin:


Natural

Fancy

Yellow

Even

VS1


Polish: Good

Symmetry: Good

Fluorescence: Med. blue can lighten the appearance of a lighter hue''d yellow..., it affects the fancy color just as it affects the I-K colors!)

Comments: Crown Angles greater than 40 degrees.

Depth: 67.1%

table: 65%


girdle: medium - very thick


What do you think of these numbers? Several vendors have warned me that I cannot use ''ideal-cut'' numbers to guide my judgment of a fancy yellow stone. They say that ideal cuts maximize the ''whiteness'' of a stone, and not the brilliance, so I can''t use those specs as guidelines to find well-cut, firey/brilliant fancy colors.


Would a slightly shallower stone (a vendor recommended a stone with 64.5% depth and 65% table) w/o high crown angles be ''prettier''? Or would a deeper stone (say, with a depth closer to 70% and a table in the 63-65% range) be more beautiful?


Cut for color type fancy colors are usually cut with high CA and CH''s and incorporate larger tables..., the reason is the above mentioned ''painted LGF''s''..., the pavilion is the cause for the optically even yellow appearance..., so the larger the table the larger pavilion view you will see!

So a larger pavilion, as in this stone, might actually create a more optically yellow stone? I hear you on the numbers don''t tell anything comment below, but am curious anyway. Like the cat.


Help! I get more confused by the day! How should I judge cut quality in a fancy yellow stone?


The more you see the more you''ll know what you like! Numbers wont give you anything and pictures NEVER reveal the actual color...


Should I be concerned about sparkle/fire/light return, or are those also secondary considerations when it comes to a fancy yellow?

If you have time..., I recommend this thread (as it shows two sides to the coin

)


https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-light-yellow-fancy-or-cape.66898/

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

the deep pavilion stone will have too much conrast so it will appear dark but not pure yellow in many types of lighting, dark from obstruction and from leakage.
of course overall brightness and fire is important - but brightness needs contrast to be really effective, and thats bad

 

[kimikocat]

Date: 8/25/2008 7:43:43 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
the deep pavilion stone will have too much conrast so it will appear dark but not pure yellow in many types of lighting, dark from obstruction and from leakage.

of course overall brightness and fire is important - but brightness needs contrast to be really effective, and thats bad

Thanks, Garry!

So a deeper pavilion is bad, because you lose the play of brightness/contrast that a well-cut stone should display.

But a larger Table will make the stone face up more yellow?

 

[elmo]

When I was looking for yellow stones for two projects, at most 1 out of 5 really popped in terms of cut. Although I didn''t have access to cut information I expect the rest were cut for color at the expense of everything else, the way DG describes. Ultimately the stones end up looking dull for lack of a better description. For one project I lucked into a nice stone after seeing several, on the other project I simply gave up. If you find someone who specializes in colored diamonds the way some folks here specialize in round ideals (and not just talk, that''s another story) let me know - that''s what I think it will take to get what you''re looking for with any consistency.

 

[lady766]

Hi there - I have posted - under lady766 - just got engaged yesterday. This is really interesting stuff - I am trying to source a diamond thats quite feint any ideas where? I''ll probably need to buy online.

http://www.faycullen.com/engagement_rings/800/f215r1d.html
http://www.original-diamonds.com/pink_diamonds.php?action=view&type=Blue&id=840&page=1
http://www.original-diamonds.com/pink_diamonds.php?action=view&type=Mixed&id=932&page=1
http://www.amgad.com/merchandise/D667.asp
http://www.debeers.com/en/invt/toprings/ncrings/ringsengagement/j1bm35c25p
http://www.fancydiamonds.net/View_Diamonds/1849.htm

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

one place worth checking out for yellows is diamondsbylauren.com, i have dealt with them before and i have always been satisfied...give them a call!

 

[lady766]

Brilliant - have checked them out they are indeed lovely - I think I''ll have to try some designs on to check what I like.

Thanks for your help - so glad I founed PS!!

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/25/2008 7:27:37 PM
Author: kimikocat

The cut comparison table on your thread, DiaGem (the one with the various cuts, viewed under different lighting conditions), made it clear that some cuts are much better at maximizing color and brilliance than others. The cushion, I guess, isn't really one of those. On the chart, it seems to be consistently 'softer' and less firey than the others.

Again depending on the cut..., is the Cushion (or other) cut to maximize color..., then it will come at a cost of brilliance and contrast..., if cut to max. beauty (as the true body color is intense enough), then brilliance and contrast will be part of the equation!
Do take into consideration that (what I call) true fancy colored Diamonds cut to standard cuts are in a completely different price bracket..., these can cost from X2 to X4 and more!!!

Question: Do certain cutters create more beautiful stones? Does it matter where a stone is cut? One vendor told me that they cut all their stones in Africa. Another vendor says he sources his stones from all over, and a third cuts in India.

Every cutter and manufacture cuts Diamond based on his business agenda and market..., no rules here!

I'm also hearing that I need to see large numbers of these stones before pulling the trigger. Do I just need to tour the local B&Ms, asking for fancy yellows, until I feel like I've seen enough to trust my eyes? Is there a better way to approach this?

Yes..., the more the better you can see and feel the difference in the shades and find out which you prefer! Try adding some high-end B&M's as some have stricter QC in regards to the cuts they are willing to display in their inventory!

Date: 8/25/2008 7:27:37 PM
Author: kimikocat

What are the proportions that cutters typically use to deepen the hue?

Deepening (or thickening) of the girdle area is a high probability, resulting in deeper td%'s, larger tables with smaller crown "size" (e.g distance of the crown from girdle to table) to promote the pavilion view area through the table.



So a larger pavilion (View from the table), as in this stone, (See image below) might actually create a more optically yellow stone? I hear you on the numbers don't tell anything comment below, but am curious anyway. Like the cat.

This is a perfect example for what I meant on the issues of pictures..., it actualy looks like a nicely "cut for color" Diamond cut!
BUT!!! The color featured in the image would more resemble a Fancy Intense or even Vivid intensity..., and it probabely will look differently on various screens and IRL!





Should I be concerned about sparkle/fire/light return, or are those also secondary considerations when it comes to a fancy yellow?

I dont think they are a secondary consideration when it comes to Diamonds at all..., it greatly depends on your preference (personal taste) and pocket depth!

 

[kimikocat]

Date: 8/26/2008 5:10:36 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/25/2008 7:27:37 PM

Author: kimikocat

Again depending on the cut..., is the Cushion (or other) cut to maximize color..., then it will come at a cost of brilliance and contrast..., if cut to max. beauty (as the true body color is intense enough), then brilliance and contrast will be part of the equation!

Do take into consideration that (what I call) true fancy colored Diamonds cut to standard cuts are in a completely different price bracket..., these can cost from X2 to X4 and more!!!

Ah yes, the dreaded x2 to x4 increase in price! After seeing a few Fancy Yellows, I agree that there is a difference between "cut for color" and "cut for maximum beauty." I suspect most consumers are more like me. We would be happy to find a good compromise between the two.


Question: Do certain cutters create more beautiful stones? Does it matter where a stone is cut? One vendor told me that they cut all their stones in Africa. Another vendor says he sources his stones from all over, and a third cuts in India.


Every cutter and manufacture cuts Diamond based on his business agenda and market..., no rules here!

I suppose this question comes out of my art history background -- the desire to learn more about cutting traditions and if different areas follow different philosophies. I do wonder if there is, say, an Antwerp tradition, or a New York tradition, and so on. But that has little bearing on the current topic (how to judge cut quality in a fancy color). It''s more of an antiquarian-type interest on my part. (We are trained to search for unique identifiers (in technique/approach/aesthetics) that help us distinguish between historic periods and geographic areas. They call it connossieurship and it''s an interesting part of our training.)


Yes..., the more the better you can see and feel the difference in the shades and find out which you prefer! Try adding some high-end B&M''s as some have stricter QC in regards to the cuts they are willing to display in their inventory!



That is a great suggestion. I am in SF, so there are a few places that I could visit. I have been working with a smaller B&M but I''m wondering if a place like Shreve & Co. would be a good place to educate myself. De Beers just opened up a boutique downtown, but I don''t know if they handle fancy colors. We don''t have the range, like LA/NYC. Maybe other SF locals will have suggestions for me. It would be nice to see stones "in house" instead of having to ask the jeweler to obtain on memo.

Date: 8/25/2008 7:27:37 PM

Author: kimikocat


What are the proportions that cutters typically use to deepen the hue?



Deepening (or thickening) of the girdle area is a high probability, resulting in deeper td%''s, larger tables with smaller crown ''size'' (e.g distance of the crown from girdle to table) to promote the pavilion view area through the table.

That describes very well the stones that I''ve seen so far! Being used to looking at D-Z diamonds, I was surprised by the Fancies. Lots of thick girdles, lots of shallow crowns. And yes, turn the stone and the color disappears. I think the ugliest stone that I saw was an oval with a grey bowtie across the front. I felt sorry for the stone.

Hypothetically, if we keep the table size the same (let''s say the 65% table of the stone in the example below) but make it deeper (say 72%), what would happen to the stone''s appearance?




So a larger pavilion (View from the table), as in this stone, (See image below) might actually create a more optically yellow stone? I hear you on the numbers don''t tell anything comment below, but am curious anyway. Like the cat.



This is a perfect example for what I meant on the issues of pictures..., it actualy looks like a nicely ''cut for color'' Diamond cut!

BUT!!! The color featured in the image would more resemble a Fancy Intense or even Vivid intensity..., and it probabely will look differently on various screens and IRL!



I''ve seen other photographs of this particular stone (recommended by the vendor) and it doesn''t always have this Fancy Intense/Vivid color! I think they had good lights on it! In other lighting it manifests a lemon color. There is some color "disappearance" in the tilted side view that the vendor sent. Not sure if it is alright to post the photos in this forum? They described it as a stone with a nice make and color. I do know that Fancy grades are not as fine as D-Z grades, so there is a spectrum on there, but I am not sure how one would describe the differences in color verbally/in writing... I suppose that is another question (how does one describe gradations of color) for a different time...