Issue 1. Immigration Reform

[smitcompton]

As election season ends, we still have many issues to tackle. I am proposing a possible solution to the immigration question.

It goes without saying that the borders must be tightened. However, the question of what to do and how to treat 11 million illegal Mexican immigrants needs to be addressed. Most experts and non experts agree that we cannot deport them. It would be an impossible task. So, what if we were to stop the quota for legal immigration from Mexico into this country until the 11 million people have been absorbed. No new immigration from Mexico until the 11 mil mark has passed. I do not know how many we allow to legally enter the country, but this seems like a possible solution.

Yes, Yes, It will not be fair to those who have waited patiently, but it is also not fair to those in America that fear for their jobs and culture.

Any comments? Would this work. I'd be for it.

Annette

 

[yssie]

Brexit has taught me that xenophobia is alive and well in the world.
Suggestions like this show me that xenophobia is alive and well in this country.


American culture is not a singly-sourced composition of traditions and beliefs that have persisted unadulterated for generation upon generation - American culture is change. Change, growth, adaptation, renewal. That's something to celebrate - the suggestion that this merits fear is so thoroughly un-American that even now, with this train wreck of an election nearly over, it still shocks me to hear.

Edit - never mind. I'm sorry I opened this thread; I'm bowing out of it before it begins.

 

[fiona00004]

Which jobs are the Americans fearing they will lose to Mexicans? What does fearing the loss of culture even mean? Maybe these questions sound a bit naive... Being from Canada....

 

[BeekeeperBetty]

First of all, this is disingenuous because immigration from Mexico is in the negative right now. They are going back to Mexico. Secondly, this assumes that all of the 11 million illegals here are from Mexico. Most people who are here illegally didn't streak across the boarder, they overstayed visitor Visa's. Lastly, the people who are streaking across the border right now are typically from Central America. We have our own refugee crisis on our hands right now as these people are fleeing horrific crime in their countries. Fueled, for the most part, by America's War On Drugs.

What should we do with them? Give them a reasonable path to citizenship, one that doesn't cost several thousand dollars and takes several years. Turn them in to tax paying citizens with worker protections. At one point I lived in an area of the country that had a very large illegal migrant worker population, and the way these people were treated as they picked our grapes and strawberries is unbelievably appalling. But they have no worker protections because they are on the fringe.

 

[redwood66]

Annette

IMO you are correct in that we cannot deport 11 million people, either practically or monetarily. However, the violent ones do need to be deported and violent felons released from our prisons must be deported immediately. As BKB said though it is not just people from Mexico which is why the border must be tightened first to stem the flow across. Finish walls/fences in the locations they are needed and not across the whole southern border. Too much $$ and not helpful. Hire more agents and employ modern surveillance techniques. Illegals who are arrested for breaking laws must be deported rather than released. We have to work with Mexico on this especially if the majority are from Central America as they are coming through their country.

We cannot allow the ones here illegally to step in front of those legally going through the process. Allow some kind of visa or temp. worker permit that requires they pay taxes and meet qualifications for any assistance like the rest of the country. If you do not have the visa or permit then you do not receive the aide. You cannot vote unless you have had your visa/permit X period of time and you must have the visa/permit to vote. You are placed in line for gaining citizenship based on when you legally apply for your visa/permit. The process does need to be less lengthy for all immigration applications.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Annette

IMO you are correct in that we cannot deport 11 million people, either practically or monetarily. However, the violent ones do need to be deported and violent felons released from our prisons must be deported immediately. As BKB said though it is not just people from Mexico which is why the border must be tightened first to stem the flow across. Finish walls/fences in the locations they are needed and not across the whole southern border. Too much $$ and not helpful. Hire more agents and employ modern surveillance techniques. Illegals who are arrested for breaking laws must be deported rather than released. We have to work with Mexico on this especially if the majority are from Central America as they are coming through their country.

We cannot allow the ones here illegally to step in front of those legally going through the process. Allow some kind of visa or temp. worker permit that requires they pay taxes and meet qualifications for any assistance like the rest of the country. If you do not have the visa or permit then you do not receive the aide. You cannot vote unless you have had your visa/permit X period of time and you must have the visa/permit to vote. You are placed in line for gaining citizenship based on when you legally apply for your visa/permit. The process does need to be less lengthy for all immigration applications.

Agree 100% with your post!

Here's my view on illegal immigrants...
If he/she haven't committed a felony they should allow to stay in U.S. by issuing them a 5 yr temporary green card. For those who have already committed a felony should be deported as soon as possible. After 5 yrs if their record stays clean then they can apply for citizenship.

 

[ruby59]

First of all, this is disingenuous because immigration from Mexico is in the negative right now.
_______________________________________

According to the nightly news last night, people from Mexico are crossing the boarder more than ever now. They are afraid that if Trump gets elected, and that magical wall goes up, they will never get in.

A quick google check will tell you that these illegal crossings are at an all time high.

 

[Matata]

I'd like to see the establishment of a Canamex Union comprised of Canada, US, Mexico -- similar to the EU -- one currency, no borders with an option to include Central and South America.

 

[redwood66]

w

I'd like to see the establishment of a Canamex Union comprised of Canada, US, Mexico -- similar to the EU -- one currency, no borders with an option to include Central and South America.

How would this be allowed under our Constitution and rule of law?

 

[Matata]

w

I'd like to see the establishment of a Canamex Union comprised of Canada, US, Mexico -- similar to the EU -- one currency, no borders with an option to include Central and South America.

How would this be allowed under our Constitution and rule of law?

Dunno Red. Members of the EU faced similar issues to what we would so we at least have a model upon which to think. I can't think of a scenario where it would work but I do like to fantasize to pass the time every now and then.

 

[redwood66]

w

I'd like to see the establishment of a Canamex Union comprised of Canada, US, Mexico -- similar to the EU -- one currency, no borders with an option to include Central and South America.

How would this be allowed under our Constitution and rule of law?

Dunno Red. Members of the EU faced similar issues to what we would so we at least have a model upon which to think. I can't think of a scenario where it would work but I do like to fantasize to pass the time every now and then.

That is one fantasy that I hope will remain so. LOL.

 

[BeekeeperBetty]

Which nightly news. Breitbart or Trump TV?

That was supposed to be a joke. But here is some info:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/09/20/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2016/01/20/u-s-illegal-immigrant-population-falls-below-11-million-continuing-nearly-decade-long-decline-report-says/

The number of people who are immigrating from Mexico has declined. We are getting more from Central America, but in a lot of ways, this is our fault. It is, after all, American money that is fueling the drug cartels in Mexico and Central America. Without Americans buying their drugs, and sending their money to these cartels, they would burn out pretty quick. Most of the people I know from Mexico move back and forth a lot. They love living in Mexico and in the US - both. So they do both.

Also it is interesting that about 50% of illegals here are Mexican, and most of them have been here for more than 10 years. Depending on how you play with the data, most stats show that they commit crimes at rates lower than US citizens. For instance, in 2013 there were 8 convictions of murder committed by illegal immigrants, out of over 14,000 murders the FBI estimates there were that year. As a contrast, over 60% of mass shootings are committed by white men.

I've lived on both US borders. There actually is a huge border fence from the Pacific through the desert. The So Cal people I know fondly reminisce about when they could easily go shopping in TJ for the day for blankets and lunch and then just wander back. Now it takes hours to cross into TJ. The border in Texas is more difficult because of the Rio Grande, and putting a wall there would be fairly impossible. But the wall doesn't do much, anyway. Since they can't walk over, they just build tunnels. FWIW, even though San Diego is right on the border, it has one of the lowest crimes rates of major cities in the nation. And sometimes people in the US take their crime to Mexico, as is the case with a couple of dirtbags who were caught crossing in to Mexico with a dead toddler in a duffle bag recently.

Some interesting pics of the border with Mexico:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/03/160304-us-mexico-border-fence-wall-photos-immigration/

The border with Canada, especially in the west is largely an open free for all. Not only are there a million dirt roads going back and forth that only the locals know about, but there is so much open space you could just hike it. As a teenager it was a "thing" to go to Canada for beer in giant cans. If the major concern about immigration is keeping terrorists out, then we need to shore up this border as well. No more sweeping vistas from Glacier to Canada, no more large animal herds migrating from Canada down in to Montana, Idaho, and Washington. Big border fence and barbed wire. You never know where those people wandering over from Canada have been. And what happens if they want a job? We'll all be saying "eh" at the end of our sentences, obsessively playing hockey, and will suddenly be a lot funnier. The horror.

I don't know. I guess this subject is sensitive to me because all the people I know from Mexico are just really nice normal people. I feel like in some circles they think they're all like some character on Breaking Bad or something. They're just people.

 

[redwood66]

BKB because the ones you know are nice does that mean that they do not need to follow the law to gain citizenship? The ones I have been in contact with are not nice and keep coming back to do more "not nice" things. I live not far from the Canadian border and the problem is not as intense as the southern border. Maybe because Canada is more difficult to come through than Mexico for a non-Canadian citizen.

 

[ruby59]

Which nightly news. Breitbart or Trump TV?
__________________________________

According to the nightly news last night, people from Mexico are crossing the boarder more than ever now. They are afraid that if Trump gets elected, and that magical wall goes up, they will never get in.



CBS nightly news.

And where did I say they were Mexican. I said from Mexico, as in that is where they are crossing over from. - border town between there and Texas.

They may be from Latin America but they have to go to Mexico to cross over.

 

[ruby59]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/17/illegal-families-surge-across-border/

And here is a Washington Times article from June (yours was January) contradicting it.

 

[PintoBean]

I am just a pinto bean, so don't get mad at my ignorance. I would assume that if you are not "documented", that you don't get hit with the same level of taxation as those who are legally residing. I've always thought it would be a good idea to pull everyone into "da system" so that they can share my pain when it comes to taxation.

If you want to punish the bean, consider re-frying me...

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

MY little pinto bean. Your answer is good. Of course everyone should be part of the tax system. Many illegals do pay taxes.

I looked up the stats. 52 % of illegals are from Mexico,( near 7 million) 15 % are from Central America. The news has shown a rush across the Mexican border which they did attribute to the election coming up.

Redwood, You have expressed your view very well and I agree with most of it. No question the bad guys have to go. I have wanted to tell you that often, contrary to what you may believe, I understand that different experiences predispose a person to certain views, all that are just as valid as the more liberal views. I learned to think about the gun problem differently, from you. I just wanted you to know.

I actually got this idea from Matata, who has a saying that we should think outside the box, so this was my attempt.
Thanks for all your thoughts except for Yisse. You see, I'm not a zenophobe, in fact quite far from it. Your post was not thoughtful, and showed a bias that leaves no room for any discussion.

There was nothing insincere about this post as well. I hope this question can get settled. But, I do want the border watched more closely.

Thanks Again,

Annette

 

[redwood66]

Thank you for your kind comments Annette. I don't dare bring up the gun issue again although I did read an interesting article this morning in NYT or something similar.

Kenny is going to get after me for someone saying nice things though since I am so fragile.

 

[monarch64]

Ok, ok, ok. I got it: You take some of those 11 million, you recruit them into the military, and you let them patrol the border. Pay them a bounty per illegal trying to get over. Problem solved.

GREAT PLAN, RIGHT GUYS?

 

[smitcompton]

Hi

I forgot one other thing about employment. The Mexican worker isn't stupid, and I do mean that. North and South Dakota, have been the fastest growing job states until recently.(pipeline being picketed) Mexicans have gone to the Dakotas for work--good paying jobs. If they go elsewhere, they are learners. They are like many immigrant groups and quickly learn how to live. Their children will do well. The mentality of immigrant groups is different than the white non-educated male who doesn't understand what has happened to him. (I hate to use the uneducated phrase as I know many who are quite smart without an education).

Redwood, I know it feels like an attack at times, and it probably is, but, it really is not personal as no-one or just a few know each other. Most of us are more than our posts on here. We give a slice of ourselves, not all. Sometimes, for me they are good conversations, even if people disagree.

Foreign intervention is acceptable on here if the tone is not too over-bearing. A few Canadians seem to have no holds barred. Fiz amnot talking about you.
Annette

 

[PintoBean]

While I wish that everyone would immigrate to America through the proper channels as my parents did and my DH's grandparents did, I don't think that I will understand the state of affairs in Mexico or anywhere else that would make people so desperate to leave that they would risk it all to come here illegally.

OR if someone has figured out a way to take advantage of a system, why they would choose to, because I don't think that way.

I AM fascinated by the stats I'm seeing here, that the elections are prompting illegal immigrants to leave!