Is this worth buying?

[jerrysinclair]

Need some help here
Trying to buy a diamond for the engagement ring, and has been quoted 150,000 USD for a 3 ct, F, VVS1, Cut Grade -very good, polish- very good, symmetry- good. Table 58%. Depth 80%. Fluorescence - none GIA certified. Is it worth buying? I was also offered a 3.26 ct,F, VVS1, Cut =strong, Polish, and symmetry - excellent=D, Table 57%, Depth 62.7%, Fluorescence - very slight, IGI certified, for the same price. Confused.
Thank you.

 

[tyty333]

You need to stick with GIA/AGS graded stones. Post the GIA number and exact carat weight.

 

[NervousBuyer]

You need to stick with GIA/AGS graded stones. Post the GIA number and exact carat weight.

You by no means need to stick with only GIA/AGS, but you do need to understand why people say that and understand the deficiencies of the other labs. Consider that an IGI etc diamond may be graded lower by GIA/AGS, so just because they are both graded as "F-VVS1" doesn't necessarily mean they are the same quality. Would it be possible to have the diamond appraised and compared to a GIA "f-vvs1"? If you are comfortable with the the price assuming it may not be the true GIA grade, that in and of itself it not a reason to disclude the stone. You just must understand that you are not comparing Apples to Apples when dealing with different labs, and especially with non-certified or "in-house" graded stones. Ick, be careful.

I do not know enough how about much the labs differ in colour/clarity (i.e. 0.5-1 grade? 1-2?). EGL can have HUGE differences, I don't know much about the other labs and how they compare. Just be aware of what you are truly buying - understand how labs typically grade relative to each other and what that means both stones might be when compared to GIA. Buyer Beware. You could also pay to have it GIA certified if you really care that much.

 

[jerrysinclair]

Thank you. The more I'm finding out, the more difficult it is for me to understand what to buy
I went to the local jewellry exhibition, and everyone was saying different things. Confusing..
I can't take a picture of the whole paper, so attaching just small important parts.
The firs diamond is 140K ( btw, what's in the comments- additional pintpoints are not shown ?)
The second one is 150K

I need to know, which one of these is better, and is this worth buying it for this price?
Thank you!

 

[Frenchcut]

I've just gone through the HCA with the figures on your certs and it doesn't look so good:

First one scores 3.1:

Factor Grade
Light Return Very Good
Fire Very Good
Scintillation Very Good
Spread
or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 3.1 - Very Good - Worth buying if the price is right

Second scores 3.8:

Factor Grade
Light Return Very Good
Fire Very Good
Scintillation Good
Spread
or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 3.8 - Very Good - Worth buying if the price is right

On pricescope we usually advise people to buy diamonds with an HCA score below 2 (you can check the tool section of Pricescope if you want to know more on HCA).

One thing to keep in mind, it's your eyes that should make the decision. If you're really in love with one of this diamonds why not but I think you can find better deal...especially in such a large stone a less than ideal cut will show even more.

 

[Frenchcut]

One last thing, I looked for some stones online and could find two 3 carat diamonds on James Allen F color and VS clarity around 80k$. They are ideal cuts and JA is a reputable seller.

On Whiteflash (another reputable seller) they have a 3 carat F color VVS2 with excellent cut on sale for 126k$.

All these stones will look much better than the two you already saw at the store.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Jerry,
Without question, this is a large purchase, and can very well be confusing.
The most important piece of advice I can give is that your relationship with the seller is crucial to your satisfaction- and also to you getting good value.
These are some important diamonds.
Are you getting a money back guarantee?
Are you buying the diamond loose?
Have you thoroughly checked out the seller?

Regarding the HCA- and a stone that you're looking at in person- my advice is to disregard it entirely.
You're looking at a diamond- the HCA can not.
Do not be surprised if the seller does not know what HCA is- this say s nothing at all about their qualifications.
But there are a lot of other ways you can check out the seller- and that's your most important task IMO.

 

[Rockdiamond]

One last thing, I looked for some stones online and could find two 3 carat diamonds on James Allen F color and VS clarity around 80k$. They are ideal cuts and JA is a reputable seller.

On Whiteflash (another reputable seller) they have a 3 carat F color VVS2 with excellent cut on sale for 126k$.

All these stones will look much better than the two you already saw at the store.

Hi Frenchcut!

I ask this with all due respect- but how could you possibly know which diamond will look better?

 

[NervousBuyer]

HCA scored can be a wonderful tool to use, but as has been pointed out many times by critics of the HCA (look hard enough here and you'll find more info) just because a stone scores lower does not mean you won't love it. Your eyes have to be the judge to determine its personality. The HCA can be a great way to identify potential problems with a stone (I used it a lot when looking), but if you think the diamond is beautiful, you don't have to pass on it just because it's not under 2.0. You already knew it wasn't an ideal cut since the GIA certs say "very good" so the scores shouldn't be a huge shock to you. Numbers can predict all they want (and sometimes this is incredibly helpful!) but it comes down to what appeals to your eyes. Also, do you really need VVS1?

 

[Frenchcut]

@Rockdiamond: The stones I found on JA and WF are all Excellent/Ideal cut as opposed to the two stones seen by the OP that are only Very Good cut. I was under the impression that it made a significant difference on a stone that size. I know at least one B&M jeweller that won't sell a stone that size unless it's an Ex cut.

I know the HCA is not a magic tool and I told the OP to trust his eyes in case he were in love with one of the two stones he's already seen.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Guys,
French- thanks for pointing out the GIA cut grade- I had actually missed that!

BUT- there are a lot of cases where a buyer will prefer a VG cut grade stone on aspects that are visible- while the aspect that earned it the downgrade can only be seen under magnification.
SO- the bottom line is that both HCA score- and even GIA cut grades may not produce visible differences in appearance- for that reason alone.



Jerry- with regard to your specific question- the downgrade in cut quality- while it might or might not produce visible results, it will affect the value- big time.

In a case like this, I'd advise eliminating anything other than EX cut grades on the basis of value alone- that is unless you're getting a screaming deal in a VG that you've compared to other EX cut grades, and prefer.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

there are a lot of cases where a buyer will prefer a VG cut grade stone on aspects that are visible- while the aspect that earned it the downgrade can only be seen under magnification.

David would you care to explain that statement?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Sure Garry!
Say a diamond has a downgraded polish grade due to small facet which can only be seen with a loupe- by a trained eye.
Or similar symmetry issues.

On a larger stone, cutters might need to loose a lot to achieve a grade which might earn them less at the time of sale net- ( IOW a VG cut grade 3.00 versus a 2.80ct EX)
I would say that we'd need to see each stone case by case to determine if it's correct to go for the EX. Even then there will be subjective calls there as well
Considering aspects that cause a GIA downgrade- yet have minimal, if any visual impact may be a viable option.
Such stones may have all the visual aspects a buyer is looking for, and can see compared to an EX cut grade.
But of course, it could also be the case that the defect is apparent.

I should have worded that statement that
'the aspect that earned it the downgrade might only be seen under magnification."

I would not necessarily rule out a VG GIA cut grade for that reason alone- if price, or other factors warrant.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Sure Garry!
Say a diamond has a downgraded polish grade due to small facet which can only be seen with a loupe- by a trained eye.
RD I believe GIA would catagorise that as a symmetry defect, and not a polish effect.
Or similar symmetry issues. regarding symmetry - if the Ex GIA cut grade drops to VG because of symmetry then the Sym grade must be Good - and in that case in stones of larger sizes (say over 3/4ct) most consumers would be able to see that effect if they were properly guided by a skilled saleperson. EX

On a larger stone, cutters might need to loose a lot to achieve a grade which might earn them less at the time of sale net- ( IOW a VG cut grade 3.00 versus a 2.80ct EX)
I would say that we'd need to see each stone case by case to determine if it's correct to go for the EX. Even then there will be subjective calls there as well
Considering aspects that cause a GIA downgrade- yet have minimal, if any visual impact may be a viable option.
Such stones may have all the visual aspects a buyer is looking for, and can see compared to an EX cut grade.
But of course, it could also be the case that the defect is apparent.

I should have worded that statement that
'the aspect that earned it the downgrade might only be seen under magnification."

I would not necessarily rule out a VG GIA cut grade for that reason alone- if price, or other factors warrant.

In the case of the first of these stone, it was downgraded because it has a part of the girdle that is Very Thin (a risk of chipping but might be acceptable if say bought to be worn as a pendant). And it has Good symmetry -a fact that will show up as leakage zones in some part(s) of the stone when viewed with an ideal-scope because it is just into that steep deep zone. If the symmetry was perfect then this would be much less of an issue.

The other stone is a classic rejection by HCA even though according to all the GIA rules it passes all its tests. And no microscope examination would have helped you decide why it was given the GIA downgrade David.
Can you tell us why it was downgraded?
Some clues - it is not the table, crown angle or pavilion angle - even though HCA dings the stone for that.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Jerry, if you are still around , I would strongly suggest insisting on GIA Excellent cut or AGS Ideal cut so that you have the most reliable grading. The best stones are almost always sent to these labs because the reports are reliable and the stones can be sold for their real value.

This is an example of a stone that I would more likely be interested in, but I would insist on it being sent to an independent appraiser such as Neil Beatty to make sure it has excellent light performance. And in regards to clarity, you will not see a thing in a VS1.

http://www.eternitydiamonds.com/diamond_detail.php?id=548058&ref=pricescope

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Garry, I will take a shot in the dark. Is it because of a painted girdle?

 

[jerrysinclair]

Hi! Just woke up
Wow! I thought buying a diamond for an engagement ring would be easy, and also cheaper from a dealer.. How wrong! )
The dealer is an uncle of my very good friend, and I think I can trust him, although we never even met. I gave him a budget of 150 ,000 USD, and this two stones were his suggestion.
I would have bought one of the diamonds already, providing it was an excellent cut, but "good", and "very good" confused me, that's why I went on this forum. I just thought 140-150K was too expensive for it.
Also someone told me the second stone might have a "fish eye" effect.. I can't have a look at the stones, as they are in another country.
I just want to make sure I'm getting something worth the price. Let's say I want to upgrade it later, will I be able to get at least 70% back for it?

 

[jerrysinclair]

Also the dealer says, that excellent cut is not important, as I'm going to put it in 6 prong ring. The minute I do it, the diamond will lose it's excellent cut, polish, etc..

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Neither stone is in a bulls roar of fisheye.
and the entire prupose of a well cut diamond is that it gets its light from above (stones RD likes get 1/4 of their light from below the girdle).
So setting has a minimal impact on well cut stones

 

[Frenchcut]

Also the dealer says, that excellent cut is not important, as I'm going to put it in 6 prong ring. The minute I do it, the diamond will lose it's excellent cut, polish, etc..

I can't believe your jeweller said that, a setting that makes your diamond loose it's Ex cut and polish

That just doesn't make sense to me and if indeed a 6 prong setting could make your stone "loose" your ex cut, polish...why on earth would he suggest using one!?

I would also like to remind you that because your jeweller is the uncle of a good friend it doesn't mean you're gonna have a good deal. There are multiple stories on PS of buyers who had a less than thrilling experience when buying from a relative/friend...at the end of the day he's still a professional who intends to sell you something!

 

[lknvrb4]

Also the dealer says, that excellent cut is not important, as I'm going to put it in 6 prong ring. The minute I do it, the diamond will lose it's excellent cut, polish, etc..

I would run very far away from this jeweler. He sounds like he is trying to take advantage of you.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Jerry
Although we are discussing issues in a general sense- in your specific case it sounds like you need to talk to some other dealers
A lot of what this guy is telling you sounds misleading.
Specifically- on a stone of this magnitude the cut grade is extremely important in assessing value
Even if some VG stones look as good as some EX stones that is meaningless when it comes to value
Stones such as the ones you've been offered are all but unsaleable in today's market due to the cut grade- keep looking

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Garry, I will take a shot in the dark. Is it because of a painted girdle?

No DS because GIA would add the terminology of "Brillianteering affecting Cut Grade" or whatever the exact terminology is.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Garry, I will take a shot in the dark. Is it because of a painted girdle?

We are still waiting for David RockDiamond to answer the question.
Its not that hard.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Bottom line - you can get a diamond graded better (ie. worth more) for cheaper with one of these online vendors that have proven policies and warranties. Why pay more with your "friend of a friend" deal?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Crown angle too steep would be my guess Garry- but I'm not schooled on the numerical boundaries of GIA's EX cut grade, and don't want to take the time to look it up- so it is just a guess

Also- Garry you must have some amazing diamonds for them to "get" light- in my experience diamonds use the light that comes to them- and some light will come through the girdle and pavilion if given the chance.
Better cut diamonds use the available light better- on that much I think we agree.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Garry, I will take a shot in the dark. Is it because of a painted girdle?

No DS because GIA would add the terminology of "Brillianteering affecting Cut Grade" or whatever the exact terminology is.

Ahh, thanks, Garry! That was the first thing that came to my mind, but I have never seen a report with that on it before. I'll be interested to see the answer!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Crown angle too steep would be my guess Garry- but I'm not schooled on the numerical boundaries of GIA's EX cut grade, and don't want to take the time to look it up- so it is just a guess
David the girdle thikness is noted as 4% which is generally allowed in GIA's Ex cut grade (up to 4/5%), but in the case where the stone has deepish proportions they seem to have a rule to drop the grade because of this. You can check it with the Facetware on the site i mentioned above. Interestingly David on this 61%Table 60.4% shallow angled crown diamond http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-VS2-Premium-Cut-Round-Diamond-1394165.asp gIA have allowed a 4.5% girdle thickness.
Also- Garry you must have some amazing diamonds for them to "get" light- in my experience diamonds use the light that comes to them- and some light will come through the girdle and pavilion if given the chance.
Better cut diamonds use the available light better- on that much I think we agree. Which is why hCA weeds out the better cut diamonds David. It is arguably a bit strict on steepish deepish stones but I have yet to hear that a person bought a stone with a good HCA and no silly sym or polish issues that they were unhappy with.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

https://www.gia.edu/facetware/
Sorry - I posted that in another thread - not here

 

[jerrysinclair]

Thank you all for your help! Really appreciate it.
So, the bottom line is - there are better diamonds for that price, right?
What do you think I should go for then, to get my 150K worth?