Is this sapphire too good to pass up?

[jeaniefish]

Hi Everyone,
Once again, I really could use some advice from all the experts here. I may have the opportunity to purchase a Ceylon blue sapphire of just under 11 carats ( yup) for around $13,000. Per appraisal, it is "dark Ceylon blue, color is slightly uneven due to strong color banding. It is VS clarity. I have no idea of the cut quality as I haven't seen it yet. It looks gorgeous in the pictures. This is from a private seller and is returnable if not to my liking when I receive it.There is no certificate regarding treatment, so I'm assuming it has been heated. This would be a major purchase for me and for a ring, not as an investment ( way too tricky for an amateur like me) . Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated!
jean

 

[Arcadian]

Does the stone also come with a lab report? if so by whom? That to me matters more than the appraisal.

-A

 

[jeaniefish]

Hi Arcadian,
There's no lab report .The current owner bought it from a "trusted jeweler" that she's done business with for 15 years . She sent me a copy of the original receipt and a separate appraisal from a different, local jeweler.

 

[T L]

I would not purchase something like that without an AGL prestige report that indicates all treatement on the stone, including potential diffusion (foreign elements). Sapphires and rubies are routinely dyed, clarity enhanced, and heaven knows what else, rendering a less than desirable piece of corundum into something very desirable. Non treated sapphire and rubies are very rare.

 

[Cabochon1]

If you really like the stone after viewing it, maybe you can come to an agreement with the seller regarding a trustworthy lab report?

 

[jeaniefish]

Hi TL,
That's kind of been the little voice nagging at me.....what has this sapphire actually been subjected to that I don't know about? I'm giving the original owner the benefit of the doubt.i.e., that she doesn't know anything about heat treating, BE, etc. I know just enough to be completely confused since there are some reputable gem dealers on the web that sell heat treated sapphires. They do however, clearly state that they have been heated.
jean

 

[LD]

First up, the risks:

1. Colour plays a part in the pricing of a sapphire - the description says "dark" which already has me wondering whether the photos you're seeing may have been enhanced.
2. Strong colour banding may not be a good thing as it may detract from the beauty of the stone.
3. At 11ct it's unlikely (very unlikely) to be untreated. So not only would I say it's safe to assume heat treatment, I would be very worried that it had been BE diffused, dyed, filled etc etc. This ENORMOUSLY affects the price.
4. $13,000 is a huge sum of money to pay without having absolutely clarity as to what you're buying.
5. You're buying from a private seller and (I assume) you don't know much about them. So assuming they are selling because they need the money, if you buy it and then don't like it, are you 100% certain you could get your money back?
6. Ignore the original sales invoice and anything said on it. Unfortunately, even if it's from a reputable jeweller, unless it's been tested by a lab, anything that it's being sold as is nothing more than a guess.
7. Corundum (sapphires and rubies) are nowadays treated to within an inch of their life and the price difference between untreated, heated and treated are enormous.

What should you do?

a. Can you post pictures of the sapphire on here? You'll get unbiased views from people who know their sapphires and can generally "read" photos for worrying giveaways.
b. If you do buy, I wonder if you could have it shipped to a jeweller to appraise it BEFORE you part with the cash? That would be the absolutely minimum I suggest you do. However, I would be much happier doing what I've listed in c below.
OR
c. You could perhaps pay a large deposit and have the vendor send the stone to a reputable lab - NOT an appraiser. Make the sale dependent on the sapphire being assessed as heat only and if it is, you pay the remainder. For $13,000 (unless it's not good quality) it's most likely to be heated. You could maybe ask a jeweller to hold the money for you/the vendor and send to a lab for the both of you? Of course, I would assume you should pay the cost of the lab report - you pay if it's heat only, if it's anything more then the Vendor pays.

Hope that helps.

 

[Arcadian]

jeaniefish, if you're in doubt, make an agreement with the seller that you'll purchase the stone but only after its been sent to AGL for a prestige report. With the price she's asking you to pay I think that pretty fair considering all the treatments that sapphires are subjected to.

To me, an appraisal especially with numbers like that, should also be backed up with a lab report stating exactly what that stone is and where it comes from.

I still buy sapphires, but these days only with if it has a report.

-A

 

[jeaniefish]

Hi Cabachon,

I suggested that very thing to the owner but she doesn't want the sapphire to be removed from the setting. I forgot to mention that it's set in platinum with little side diamonds. I don't blame her for not wanting the sapphire to be removed but I don't know how else one could send the stone off to GIA, AGS etc. w/o doing that. I called a local jeweler to ask if the gemologist could tell ,under magnification, if the stone was heated. I was told that such an examination takes special tools ( I dk how to spell equipment ,two p's?)that they don't have. I guess what I'm having to ask myself is : Can I be happy with a beautiful sapphire/diamond ring, at what seems to be a very reasonable price, when I don't know the history of the sapphire? To buy that same size/color sapphire , certified to be untreated in any way, would cost upwards of $60,000. I suppose it's kind of like buying a good looking fake diamond to get the size you want, at a fraction of the price for the real thing.
jean

 

[jeaniefish]

LD,
thanks so much for all the detailed information. The more that I read about blue sapphires, the more I feel that this one is in the 99% that has been heated. I was sort of o.k. with that, but I'm not o.k. with all the other "torturing" you mentioned. It could have come out of the ground as a big piece of glass, basically, and been turned into a huge "blue sapphire" by any or all of the methods you described. I think that I'm going to listen to that "little voice" telling me that this one is too good to be true. Also, the advice that I've gotten from everyone here has helped me so much. Thanks to all the PS members. You've come through again!
Jean

 

[Pandora II]

First up, the risks:

1. Colour plays a part in the pricing of a sapphire - the description says "dark" which already has me wondering whether the photos you're seeing may have been enhanced.
2. Strong colour banding may not be a good thing as it may detract from the beauty of the stone.
3. At 11ct it's unlikely (very unlikely) to be untreated. So not only would I say it's safe to assume heat treatment, I would be very worried that it had been BE diffused, dyed, filled etc etc. This ENORMOUSLY affects the price.
4. $13,000 is a huge sum of money to pay without having absolutely clarity as to what you're buying.
5. You're buying from a private seller and (I assume) you don't know much about them. So assuming they are selling because they need the money, if you buy it and then don't like it, are you 100% certain you could get your money back?
6. Ignore the original sales invoice and anything said on it. Unfortunately, even if it's from a reputable jeweller, unless it's been tested by a lab, anything that it's being sold as is nothing more than a guess.
7. Corundum (sapphires and rubies) are nowadays treated to within an inch of their life and the price difference between untreated, heated and treated are enormous.

What should you do?

a. Can you post pictures of the sapphire on here? You'll get unbiased views from people who know their sapphires and can generally "read" photos for worrying giveaways.
b. If you do buy, I wonder if you could have it shipped to a jeweller to appraise it BEFORE you part with the cash? That would be the absolutely minimum I suggest you do. However, I would be much happier doing what I've listed in c below.
OR
c. You could perhaps pay a large deposit and have the vendor send the stone to a reputable lab - NOT an appraiser. Make the sale dependent on the sapphire being assessed as heat only and if it is, you pay the remainder. For $13,000 (unless it's not good quality) it's most likely to be heated. You could maybe ask a jeweller to hold the money for you/the vendor and send to a lab for the both of you? Of course, I would assume you should pay the cost of the lab report - you pay if it's heat only, if it's anything more then the Vendor pays.

Hope that helps.

Ditto all the above.

Lab report would have to be AGL Prestige for me - no other lab would be acceptable for me.

I'm leery about the banding and the dark colour - and the VS clarity. Coloured stones are graded face up by the naked eye not under x10 like diamonds, so exactly what kind of inclusions are we talking? Just because a stone is big doesn't mean it's any good. You also need to look at the proportions - is the stone very deep, does it carry a lot of weight in the belly? The depth could make a huge impact on whether it is even wearable. And this is before the question of treatments.

If the price is based on a jeweller's appraisal, I would be very wary. Unless done by a true expert and for the right reason (insurance/replacement etc) they are normally incredibly over-inflated. I'm glad you're not looking at this as an investment piece. There are very few of them, realising your investment is very difficult and those I have seen cost nearly 6 figures for only a 3 or 4ct stone.

Just seen your latest post. I would walk away from this one. For that much money a lab report is a must and it needs to be taken out of the setting to be properly tested.

 

[JewelFreak]

Jeaniefish, that's a wise decision. You're a smart chick. What everybody said here about treatment is true. Also worrisome is that especially if you don't know the seller, you have no guarantee you'd get the money back if you wanted to return the stone. That's a bunch of change to lose that way or to drop on an untested sapphire.

Continue reading about them & then contact some of the dealers mentioned here -- for that price you can get something nice from a trustworthy & skilled source. And have a lot of fun in the process!

--- Laurie

 

[Michael_E]

I called a local jeweler to ask if the gemologist could tell ,under magnification, if the stone was heated. I was told that such an examination takes special tools ( I dk how to spell equipment ,two p's?)that they don't have.

This is surprising in that most large sapphires have at least some inclusions in them. A simple microscopic examination is enough to tell you if a sapphire has NOT been heated. If it does show evidence of heating, THEN you have the difficulty of figuring out if the stone has had BE treatment or not and this does require special treatment. I would certainly have a competent local gemologist look it over and get their opinion prior to negating the deal. I would pursue this further and get opinions from someone knowledgeable who can actually see the stone and give an opinion about further investigation. Since this is a significant amount of money I would also suggest seeing if the seller would be open to having a trusted local banker or lawyer be an intermediary in the transaction, serving as a sort of escrow service, should you both agree to having this stone tested by a lab.

 

[Michael_E]

I think that I'm going to listen to that "little voice" telling me that this one is too good to be true. Also, the advice that I've gotten from everyone here has helped me so much. Thanks to all the PS members. You've come through again!
Jean

Come through again? I think that you really need better advice and from someone knowledgeable who can SEE the gem. Would you take medical advice from a bunch of people on a forum, none of whom are doctors? It's one thing if everyone could see what you're talking about and it's an obvious dog, but if you've seen the stone and it's nice looking then I would really suggest getting a more informed opinion than any of us here can give. I say this because I have seen a number of very fine pieces being offered by people who can't afford to try and sell them in the right venues or even get a lab report for them. These often get sold for pennies to pawn shops who tear them apart and sell them for a handsome profit to other jewelers who know what they're looking at.

I'm not saying that your little voice or anyone here is wrong, but you really need more information to make an adequate decision about something like this.

 

[LD]

Ok there's another way to look at this:-

The ring is platinum with accent diamonds.
The sapphire is 11ct.

Let's assume that the sapphire is only heated AND VS clarity AND a pretty colour. $13k sounds actually very cheap. It could be bargain of the year but on the flip side it may not be. An 11ct VS sapphire that's only been heated (assuming the colour is very good), is likely to be waaaaaaaay more than $13k. So alarm bells are ringing BUT if the seller is desperate for money, that may be the reason.

An 11ct VS sapphire that had some form of treatment, in a platinum setting with small accent diamonds could well sell at $13k purely because of the size of the sapphire and the platinum setting.

All of the above is of course just a series of assumptions but you can see where I'm heading?

Most importantly, I do believe that the GIA (not sure about AGL) will grade gemstones in a mount. I can't recall if there's a setting/unsetting fee or not. Hopefully somebody will chime in who may have the answer BUT the Vendor shouldn't be worried about this (especially if it's sent to a lab).

 

[minousbijoux]

Ok there's another way to look at this:-

The ring is platinum with accent diamonds.
The sapphire is 11ct.

Let's assume that the sapphire is only heated AND VS clarity AND a pretty colour. $13k sounds actually very cheap. It could be bargain of the year but on the flip side it may not be. An 11ct VS sapphire that's only been heated (assuming the colour is very good), is likely to be waaaaaaaay more than $13k. So alarm bells are ringing BUT if the seller is desperate for money, that may be the reason.

An 11ct VS sapphire that had some form of treatment, in a platinum setting with small accent diamonds could well sell at $13k purely because of the size of the sapphire and the platinum setting.

All of the above is of course just a series of assumptions but you can see where I'm heading?

Most importantly, I do believe that the GIA (not sure about AGL) will grade gemstones in a mount. I can't recall if there's a setting/unsetting fee or not. Hopefully somebody will chime in who may have the answer BUT the Vendor shouldn't be worried about this (especially if it's sent to a lab).

I agree with this and this is where I would take it as well. It sounds like the OP draws the line at foreign element treatments, but for arguments sake, I would assess it the way LD did - I would assume it has been fully treated with heat and foreign elements and then I would say "okay, whats that worth?" You know what a platinum mount with x cts of diamonds is worth (or you can come up with a close estimate), so you net this out. Then you have the heated and treated stone left for $13k - $x (mounting). The question to ask - what is a heated and treated stone of that clarity and that color worth. Michael E and others can probably give you $/ct for a heated/treated stone, and then it is up to the OP, unless she can provide photos she believes are accurate for us to assess for color, to assess the quality and whether the price is in the ballpark for a heated/treated stone of that clarity, color and size.

As an aside, 11cts is one honker of a stone!

 

[Cabochon1]

Hi Cabachon,

I suggested that very thing to the owner but she doesn't want the sapphire to be removed from the setting. I forgot to mention that it's set in platinum with little side diamonds. I don't blame her for not wanting the sapphire to be removed

If the sapphire is prong set, removing shouldn't be a problem I think. Would she be prepared grant you a refund if the report would come back unfavorably but you had the stone unset at your liability/risk ?

 

[Richard M.]

Both GIA and AGL issue reports on mounted stones. The prices are a bit higher as I remember. I'd insist on a report from one or the other on an item in this price range.

Both labs will indicate any identifiable treatment by "known" procedures. That would include so-called "low heat" if evidence is present and Be diffusion (this test costs more due to the expensive equipment required). Not all "low heat" sapphires show evidence of heating and some untreated blue sapphires contain Be in small amounts.

Some natural growth-zoning is likely in such a large stone and may even be helpful (if minor) in identifying it as an earth-grown crystal. So are some minor inclusions. Those wanting no zoning or inclusions should buy a lab-grown stone.

I recently brokered a fine 5.10 ct. blue sapphire wholesale-valued at $14,500 for a client that needed quick cash. He accepted a price well below that number because it was a distressed sale. Good buys are available in this economic climate for people with cash.

Richard M. (Rick Martin)

 

[jeaniefish]

Hi Richard ( and also Cabachon,LD, Michael E., Pandora, JewelFreak and minousbijoux)
I have read and reread all of your posts and want to ,again, say thank you to everyone who responded to my request for advice. I have checked the GIA website and found the fee ( $650) for submitting a sapphire of this size for testing. Add another few hundred for express shipping and insurance. All of that would be worth it if this turned out to be a Burmese sapphire .

Richard, I couldn't find any mention ,on the GIA fee page, of sending the stone in a mounting. I'm assuming that you have done this and the stone was left in the mounting while at GIA? I know that the seller won't even consider paying any of the cost of the assessment and the sapphire can't be removed from the setting if I want to return it for a refund.Then there is the point that someone made , and it's a good one , about a refund being tricky when dealing with a private seller. Saying you can return it and actually being able to do so are two different things if she's already gone off to Neiman Marcus to go shopping with the ring money!

Having said all that, I fear that I may be in over my head here and am trying to put this ring out of my mind.I've picked out a very nice ( much smaller) Burmese sapphire from Wildfish Gems.In all of my self education about sapphires, I learned that Burmese sapphires don't come up for sale that often so I was happy to find this one . I had read about WildFish here on PS and Ed seems like a great guy to deal with. Hopefully, this little sapphire, when put in a gorgeous platinum setting that I already have, will help me to forget all about the BIG Blue ............we'll see.

Thanks again and please forgive me if I forgot to mention anyone who took time out of his/her Saturday to offer expertise and advice.
Jean

 

[Richard M.]

See: http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/colored-stones/colored-stone-reports/index.html

“GIA’s Gemological Identification Reports assess the characteristics of a mounted or loose colored stone (weight, measurements, shape, cutting style and color) and indicate any detectable treatments. The stone’s identity, whether it is natural or synthetic, and if it is a ruby, sapphire or emerald, geographic origin is provided.”

 

[jeaniefish]

Richard,
Thanks so much for pointing out what I missed. I do appreciate it.
Jean

 

[Harriet]

AGL will issue reports on mounted stones for a 15% surcharge:
http://www.aglgemlab.com/services/rates.aspx

 

[Arcadian]

great to know, thanks for posting that information Harriet.

I also wanted to add that maybe you and the seller could agree to use escrow to hold the money. I've set up such accounts through my bank, but it also depends on the type of bank you have, if it can be done. (I use mine for business a lot)

So I can only speak for myself when I say that the outlay of money is a lot, and I would proceed but only if I knew some protections were in place.


Hopefully you and the seller can come to an amicable agreement.

-A