Is this a "detailed" appraisal?

[islandmouse]

Hi all -- I've been reading and reading many posts on this forum to try to get a better sense for what a "detailed" appraisal is. We did a lot of research before purchasing the ring and, thanks to many folks here on PS, we had a great deal of help. Unfortunately, we did not get an appraisal before purchasing the stone. However, we did deal with a PS vendor who is very well respected (Mark T. at BE/ERD).

Although we are not yet engaged, my soon-to-be finacé is planning to propose on a trip abroad. Alas, he wants me to obtain insurance on the ring prior to the trip (for obvious reasons). I probably have to get the insurance by the end of February at the latest, for our trip in early March.

So here's my question. We only have an appraisal from Mark/Chris at BE/ERD. I'm concerned it is not detailed enough. It only lists the carat, color, clarity, measurements of the diamond in mm, the GIA lab certificate number, the fact that the ring is laser inscribed, the type of metal of the band, size of the band, and total value of the ring (which is slightly more than what we paid, but not inflated as we were cautious about that too).

Here are my concerns. It does not list the cut of the ring, nor the polish, the symmetry, or fluorescence. It doesn't mention the table, crown or pavillion angles, depth, etc. proportions. It doesn't give the HCA value, the ASET or IS. It also doesn't list the total weight of the platinum or the width/thickness of the metal. I am not sure what else "should" be included on a "detailed" appraisal.

So I tried to do some research on PS forums, but I'm having a hard time understanding what a "detailed" appraisal is. To me, I don't think the one from ERD is. Especially if it's missing the cut grade!

The other thing.. I know I've read on here that you need to get an independent appraisal, or that you should. I haven't seen the ring in its finished form (supposed to be a surprise), and my s/o will not let me see it until the proposal. So while I would prefer to get it appraised by an independent appraiser, the fact that I need to get insurance before he proposes is holding me back on the independent appraisal.

Sorry for being so long and detailed, but I want to get a better understanding of all this. If you were in my shoes, what would you do? Are the details in the appraisal I have enough to constitute a "detailed" appraisal? I'm just concerned because we spent a lot of time to find a stone that matched our preferences, and I don't want an insurance company to be able to pick something that has a terrible HCA value or bad ASET. What do y'all think?!

 

[yssie]

Hi all -- I've been reading and reading many posts on this forum to try to get a better sense for what a "detailed" appraisal is. We did a lot of research before purchasing the ring and, thanks to many folks here on PS, we had a great deal of help. Unfortunately, we did not get an appraisal before purchasing the stone. However, we did deal with a PS vendor who is very well respected (Mark T. at BE/ERD).

Although we are not yet engaged, my soon-to-be finacé is planning to propose on a trip abroad. Alas, he wants me to obtain insurance on the ring prior to the trip (for obvious reasons). I probably have to get the insurance by the end of February at the latest, for our trip in early March.

So here's my question. We only have an appraisal from Mark/Chris at BE/ERD. I'm concerned it is not detailed enough. It only lists the carat, color, clarity, measurements of the diamond in mm, the GIA lab certificate number, the fact that the ring is laser inscribed, the type of metal of the band, size of the band, and total value of the ring (which is slightly more than what we paid, but not inflated as we were cautious about that too).

Here are my concerns. It does not list the cut of the ring, nor the polish, the symmetry, or fluorescence. It doesn't mention the table, crown or pavillion angles, depth, etc. proportions. It doesn't give the HCA value, the ASET or IS. It also doesn't list the total weight of the platinum or the width/thickness of the metal. I am not sure what else "should" be included on a "detailed" appraisal.

So I tried to do some research on PS forums, but I'm having a hard time understanding what a "detailed" appraisal is. To me, I don't think the one from ERD is. Especially if it's missing the cut grade!

The other thing.. I know I've read on here that you need to get an independent appraisal, or that you should. I haven't seen the ring in its finished form (supposed to be a surprise), and my s/o will not let me see it until the proposal. So while I would prefer to get it appraised by an independent appraiser, the fact that I need to get insurance before he proposes is holding me back on the independent appraisal.

Sorry for being so long and detailed, but I want to get a better understanding of all this. If you were in my shoes, what would you do? Are the details in the appraisal I have enough to constitute a "detailed" appraisal? I'm just concerned because we spent a lot of time to find a stone that matched our preferences, and I don't want an insurance company to be able to pick something that has a terrible HCA value or bad ASET. What do y'all think?!

I doubt the paper you have is intended to be a "detailed appraisal" - very few vendors will issue a detailed appraisal on their own sale! And, in any case, it would defeat the purpose of independent verification, which is one of the primary benefits. Most likely the document you have is a simple "verification for insurance purposes" - it'll meet most insurers' minimum requirements to issue a policy, so it's better than nothing, but its lack of detail most definitely leaves you in an unenviable position with a "replace with like kind and quality" sort of agreement.

If you post your general location (country/state/city) perhaps other PSers can recommend independent appraisers in your area who could help with the type of detailed appraisal you're looking for

ETA: Left out the most important part - congratulations on your impending engagement!

 

[WinkHPD]

Many of us do issue what would be considered a detailed appraisal, and if we made the ring, who better to know the cost to replace it?

In my opinion, you may want a more detailed appraisal than what you have described though. If it lists the GIA report number, then if the diamond is a round it should also have the cut grade listed. It should also include a detailed description of the ring, including style number of the vendor and at least one if not more photos of the ring so that the design can be replicated in case of a total loss. The style number of the vendor is one thing that may or may not be available to an independent appraiser.

The detailed measurements that you are asking about are listed on the report, although I do like to also put them in my "valuations for insurance purposes", and if appropriate, the brand name of the diamond. You do not want to pay for a branded diamond and get a generic, "its nice enough for you" replacement. If you paid for and are insuring a branded diamond and it is not listed on the appraisal, then you will get a, "its nice enough for you" replacement.

Please understand that I am also a big fan of GOOD independent appraisers, such as DenverAppraiser here on PriceScope, but I have been burned by (prerogative term deleted) appraisers who in their "wisdom" decree that branded diamonds are worth only the street price for GIA XXX diamonds that are steep, deep and cheap.

Wink

 

[islandmouse]

Thank you Wink and thank you Yssie for your replies! So you have both pretty much confirmed my concerns. The stone is a round brilliant, and I agree that the cut should absolutely be on it. HCA is under 2.0, XXX, all that. Not a branded stone, but still a very nice stone. The setting was custom made, so I'm not sure if it has a number. I am definitely concerned about the "appraisal" after reading your comments, as well as after looking through some more (older) posts on PS re: what true appraisers include. I agree that it does not seem that this is a detailed appraisal. I, of course, would feel more comfortable getting a third party appraisal rather than one in house from where we purchased both the diamond and the setting, for conflict of interest purposes but also so I can sleep better at night knowing I am more "protected" should something happen to the ring (for insurance purposes). I guess the issue is that the independent appraisal needs to be done before the proposal, and the insurance needs to be obtained before the proposal/our trip, and I can't see the ring beforehand which makes things somewhat complicated because my significant other works long hours and likely won't have the time to do this.

I am in the NYC area (Westchester county). If y'all know of any PS recommended appraisers, please let me know. I am happy to go forward with your very valuable and trusted information!

 

[denverappraiser]

If it references the GIA report, all of the data on that report is effectively included, which would include symmetry, polish and so on. When I do them I actually include a scan of the GIA but that's just to make things easier to follow.

The key to 'details' on this sort of job is anything other than what's on that report. This means the photographs, measurements, counts, branding and various other materials. Basically it should be possible to reproduce or reorder the piece to your satisfaction using ONLY the details provided. Think of it as the purchase order for the replacement. If it's not in there, don't expect the replacement company to know it's important to you. This can include easy things like the branding of the mounting manufacturer to arcane things like Hearts and Arrows images. It just depends on what you count as important.

Often the appraisal is really also intended as part of a quality control step on the finished item. Are things set properly, undamaged, and otherwise as represented? That's a detail that seller written documents tend to omit for obvious reasons, even when their reports are otherwise thorough. Whether or not this is important or even useful to you depends on your confidence in the seller.

 

[islandmouse]

If it references the GIA report, all of the data on that report is effectively included, which would include symmetry, polish and so on. When I do them I actually include a scan of the GIA but that's just to make things easier to follow.

The key to 'details' on this sort of job is anything other than what's on that report. This means the photographs, measurements, counts, branding and various other materials. Basically it should be possible to reproduce or reorder the piece to your satisfaction using ONLY the details provided. Think of it as the purchase order for the replacement. If it's not in there, don't expect the replacement company to know it's important to you. This can include easy things like the branding of the mounting manufacturer to arcane things like Hearts and Arrows images. It just depends on what you count as important.

Often the appraisal is really also intended as part of a quality control step on the finished item. Are things set properly, undamaged, and otherwise as represented? That's a detail that seller written documents tend to omit for obvious reasons, even when their reports are otherwise thorough. Whether or not this is important or even useful to you depends on your confidence in the seller.

Thanks, denverappraiser. It has one photo which, for me, is not sufficient. The measurements are lacking. For example, we paid to have a custom setting very similar to the traditional Tiffany 6-prong setting. It cost almost as much as the Vatche setting. None of the measurements of this setting are on the appraisal. I did ask for the measurements when I tried on the prototype that they made me, and they couldn't give me an exact answer. I definitely want the measurements to be on the appraisal so the exact setting could be recreated should anything happen. I don't want an insurance company to pass something else off as "good enough" that may not be good enough in my eyes. That's a huge concern. This was an expensive purchase for us, and I want to make sure that if anything ever happens to the ring, that we receive a replacement that is up to par with what we purchased.

Would you suggest that I ask the company that created the setting to provide more information as to the platinum weight, measurements of the setting, etc.? What they gave us is not detailed at all. It just says "Lady's Custom Classic 'Tiffany' 6-prong solitaire engagement ring with above detailed round brilliant stone for size __ finger." I'm really anal about stuff like this and I realize words matter a lot, as does lack of evidence or lack of details.

 

[denverappraiser]

Most people don't do their best work for free, and most sellers tend to view the appraisal as a freebie add on, sort of like the fancy box and the gift wrapping.

Measurements of the mounting are a straightforward enough matter of measuring and writing it down. That's the case of most of the 'facts' like the weight, ring size, count on the various side stones and so on. Even the photos are largely a matter of just taking them. T'aint rocket science, it's just work. What the manufacturer can better tell you is things like the exact weight of those side stones, the recipe of the platinum (is it 950 or 900) and the like. They are also the source of things like the style number, assuming there is one, the name of the designer and similar details that may be important to you but that can't be picked up from a physical inspection.

My usual rule for evaluating these things is simple enough. Read the description and ask yourself the question the replacement jeweler is going to be asked if a replacement is needed. What's the cheapest ring you can make that meets the following description: .....?

If that's likely to result in happiness, you're good. If not, then you need a more detailed appraisal.

In short, definitely ask them for whatever data they can and will provide, but get your appraisal from a real appraiser. There's a list at the top of the pages under the Resources tab.

 

[islandmouse]

Most people don't do their best work for free, and most sellers tend to view the appraisal as a freebie add on, sort of like the fancy box and the gift wrapping.

Measurements of the mounting are a straightforward enough matter of measuring and writing it down. That's the case of most of the 'facts' like the weight, ring size, count on the various side stones and so on. Even the photos are largely a matter of just taking them. T'aint rocket science, it's just work. What the manufacturer can better tell you is things like the exact weight of those side stones, the recipe of the platinum (is it 950 or 900) and the like. They are also the source of things like the style number, assuming there is one, the name of the designer and similar details that may be important to you but that can't be picked up from a physical inspection.

My usual rule for evaluating these things is simple enough. Read the description and ask yourself the question the replacement jeweler is going to be asked if a replacement is needed. What's the cheapest ring you can make that meets the following description: .....?

If that's likely to result in happiness, you're good. If not, then you need a more detailed appraisal.

In short, definitely ask them for whatever data they can and will provide, but get your appraisal from a real appraiser. There's a list at the top of the pages under the Resources tab.

Thanks. Super, super helpful. I will definitely get it appraised by a real appraiser. Will work on that. Appreciate your insight, Denver!

 

[SparklySoprano]

Hi, Denver Appraiser!

I have a question regarding an appraisal I just received (I went to a recommended PS appraiser). It doesn't include the style number of the ring (James Allen). Should I have them add the style number of the ring? I believe that is all that is missing. Or could I simply send a detailed copy of the item, e.g. from the James Allen site or the paperwork they gave me, to the insurance company: Jeweler's Mutual? The appraiser did include a photo, by the way.

Also the report doesn't include the specifics from the GIA report regarding all the diamond proportions. But it does include the grading basics, e.g. cut, color, clarity, measurements and the Grading Report Number, and from what I read earlier on this post that should be OK.

Just want to double check!!! My ring is somewhat delicate due to the appx 100 melee stones in it so I want to make sure I am good and covered. Thanks for your generous advice.

~ Sparkly Soprano

Ps. You helped me out a few months ago in deciding not to go with a difficult Tacori mounting as it did not accurately fit my stone, and the tricky prongs were too much to deal with. I'm thankful for that help, as well. (I believe Wink helped, as well, so thanks, Wink!)

And IslandMouse, I hope you don't mind the subtle hijacking here. Thank you!

 

[denverappraiser]

Hi, Denver Appraiser!

I have a question regarding an appraisal I just received (I went to a recommended PS appraiser). It doesn't include the style number of the ring (James Allen). Should I have them add the style number of the ring? I believe that is all that is missing. Or could I simply send a detailed copy of the item, e.g. from the James Allen site or the paperwork they gave me, to the insurance company: Jeweler's Mutual? The appraiser did include a photo, by the way.

Also the report doesn't include the specifics from the GIA report regarding all the diamond proportions. But it does include the grading basics, e.g. cut, color, clarity, measurements and the Grading Report Number, and from what I read earlier on this post that should be OK.

Just want to double check!!! My ring is somewhat delicate due to the appx 100 melee stones in it so I want to make sure I am good and covered. Thanks for your generous advice.

~ Sparkly Soprano

Ps. You helped me out a few months ago in deciding not to go with a difficult Tacori mounting as it did not accurately fit my stone, and the tricky prongs were too much to deal with. I'm thankful for that help, as well. (I believe Wink helped, as well, so thanks, Wink!)

And IslandMouse, I hope you don't mind the subtle hijacking here. Thank you!

I'm glad I could help.

Normally I include a scan of the whole GIA document in my report but it's not really necessary, I'm just a bit compulsive that way. Assuming there's no debate over whether or not it's the correct stone or if it's damaged, and the report is recent enough that GIA has a copy online (2008ish. you can check your own at http://www.reportcheck.gia.edu), the report number effectively brings in everything on it.

JA, and many other vendors, don't always have a style number. I just did one from them today that didn't for example. Custom and quasi custom jobs almost never do. Obviously the only place your appraiser is going to get it is from you so if you didn't tell them, I'm not surprised it's absent. As mentioned above, I like to include them because what I'm writing may turn into a purchase order for the replacement and I like to be as specific as possible. Including that it's a JA style #xxxx brings in a lot of information. Assuming JA is still in business at the time of replacement, and they're still willing to make one of those within the proscribed budget, that pretty much defines the replacement (ps. Replacement jewelers hate this practice.)

 

[SparklySoprano]

OK, thanks, DA! The report is available online, so that is good. And based on what you said it seems as long as I have the style information, which did come with the JA paperwork, that should be good enough then. Just feels good to know my i's were dotted and t's crossed.

Best regards,
~SS~