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Is the US in the middle of a coup?

arkieb1

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This article was written by a fellow Aussie and Economics scholar from Sydney University called Charles Firth, it's interesting reading and worth reading;

IS WHAT we’re witnessing in the US a slow-motion downhill slide into a coup?

A fascinating and scary article has been doing the rounds in recent days, which suggests that Donald Trump’s ban on immigration from seven Muslim-majority countries was an attempt to see how far he can push his power, as the first step to mounting an all-out coup.

A Google engineer named Yonatan Zunger has suggested that the way the White House has repeatedly gone around long standing conventions shows it is testing to see whether a coup is possible.

One man’s coup is another man’s “strong leadership”. But what Zunger is talking about is Mr Trump’s inner circle grabbing power in a similar way that Vladimir Putin has done in Russia, where he exercises power unchallenged by any other body.
Sure, he still has a court system and a legislative body, but they are largely irrelevant, and Mr Putin would ignore them if they ever opposed him.
Zunger’s point is that last weekend the White House and Department of Homeland Security happily ignored court orders related to the Muslim ban, and there was no real consequence to it.

If Mr Trump’s inner circle gets good at going around the conventional processes, the result is essentially coup-like: Congress and the Supreme Court can try to oppose him all it likes, but if he’s willing to just keep going around the normal processes, there is not a lot they can do.

This is normally accompanied by a Kleptocratic approach to the nation’s finances. Kleptocracy is “rule by thieves”. The argument that Zunger presents is that Mr Trump’s refusal to divest himself of assets shows a proclivity to use the office to enrich himself and his family.
But coup or not, Zunger has identified some tendencies in Mr Trump’s leadership style are worth exploring.

In the weeks since his inauguration, Mr Trump has repeatedly projected his power without being challenged by going around all the normal processes. The most visible — and trivial — example of this is Mr Trump’s use of Twitter.
Mr Trump’s tweets about his conversation with Prime Minister ‘Trumble’ stomped on centuries of diplomatic protocol. And he uses Twitter every day to get his message out unchallenged by the questioning (and fact-checking) of the press. Don’t get me wrong — it’s spectacular to watch — but it shows in Mr Trump a desire to be unchallenged and unmediated by the normal processes of government — whether they’re diplomatic protocols or scrutiny by the media.

If it were just his tweets, that would be one thing, but he’s taking the same approach across the board.
Normally, when a President gets into power, he rushes to appoint the roughly 660 senior officials that need approval from Congress. That’s because he’s hoping to get the departments (which employ millions of people) working according to his agenda.
Indeed, for centuries, that’s been the main prize of winning the presidency. You get to set the agenda for how millions of Americans administer the government.

Instead, Mr Trump only named 29 appointees by the time he was inaugurated. Twenty nine out of 660.
In one light, you could argue that this shows that Mr Trump and his inner circle are just deeply incompetent. But you could also consider another possibility — that on the whole, Mr Trump doesn’t care that much about who runs the bureaucracy, because that’s not how he’s planning on projecting his power.

It’s now becoming clear that the supposed “mass resignations” of nearly all of the senior staff at the State Department was a purge ordered by the White House. Look at the chart that Emily Gorcenski tweeted around. That’s not an orderly transition. That’s a wipe-out.
Many commentators have lamented the purge means that it will be months — if not years — before the State Department has an effective leadership at the top of it that allows it to participate in Federal policy decisions.

But if you follow Zunger’s thinking, perhaps that’s the intention.

The purge happened the day before Mr Trump announced his ban on immigration from seven Muslim countries, a ban which many in the State Department would have reflexively opposed. By taking out the State Department, he was able to exercise his power unchallenged.
Clearly certain parts of that order were unconstitutional. At least three judges in the US have now ruled against it, and if it ever gets in front of the Supreme Court, there is a case that it breaches the US Constitution’s values of equal protection and religious freedom.
But even with a neutered State Department, if Mr Trump had run the Order by the Department of Homeland Security and the Attorney General, the Order would have been neutered out of all its blustery impact.

Instead, by going around the normal process of checks and balances, it worked. Sure, various courts around the US ordered stays on some provisions in the Order, but the Order’s intent — to keep people from seven countries from entering the United States — remains in place.

By finding ways to exercise power unchallenged, Mr Trump’s inner circle were able to enact an unconstitutional order. And the only lesson that they derived from it is that it actually doesn’t matter how unconstitutional something they do is, as long as they go around the Departments that will object, they can get it done.

The list goes on. Mr Trump issued an extraordinary 20 executive orders in his first 10 days. If you read through them, they are hilariously amateurish in their drafting.

I know this sounds like a joke, but one of the orders — honestly — declared the day of his inauguration The National Day of Patriotic Devotion. I’m not making it up. The Order itself reads like a decree from Kim Jong Un.

As you read through them, it becomes clear they have not gone through the conventional methods for drafting executive orders — which involves showing them to the relevant department for input. At times they are vague, at other times the wording is flowery. They are not the work of experts.

The White House has confirmed to multiple reporters that they have been drafted by Mr Trump’s inner circle, and released without any input from the Departments that are expected to carry them out.

Again, this might be incompetence — many of his inner circle have no previous experience in government. But it might also be they simply don’t care about what the Departments think about his orders. Or worse, they know exactly what they think, and are seeking ways to avoid that scrutiny.

Properly gauging how Mr Trump is exercising his power is important because many of those who oppose Mr Trump are still in a state of denial that he is really behaving in this way.

The insider analysis is still largely that the institutions of Congress, the Court System, and even the bureaucratic procedures of the Departments, will place roadblocks around Mr Trump.

But what no-one seems to realise is that these institutions are not set up to deal with being circumnavigated, especially not by someone as powerful as a President.

And where it starts getting into coup territory is when you realise that he’s even sidelined the US Military from the normal processes in recent weeks.
Take, for example, the most powerful body in the US Military hierarchy: the Joint Chiefs of Staff. These are the seven top leaders of all four arms of the military. On Monday, Mr Trump pulled the Joint Chiefs’ representative off the top committee of the National Security Council, and instead appointed his civilian adviser (and far-right nationalist) Steve Bannon to run the committee. Now the military has no permanent member on the committee which directs national security decisions.

This is unprecedented. Nobody ever thought that a President would go around the back of a Department or the Military, simply because, being President, the Department and the Military is formally already his to control.

But if Mr Trump is prepared to go around his departments and media, ignore diplomatic protocols and sideline the US Military, will he really obey the will of Congress and the Supreme Court when they start trying to put limits on his power?

What it means is that much of the conventional thinking about how Mr Trump’s presidency will play out needs to be completely rethought. It’s no use running off to a court to get the President’s order declared unconstitutional if the President plans on ignoring the court’s declaration. It’s no use hoping the military will place roadblocks on his latest National Security plan, because they’re no longer on the committee.

The rule book for how power is exercised in the US is currently being torn up. The question is whether what it’s replaced with will be in any way democratic.

If the Republicans in Congress try to block Mr Trump from getting his way on something, he’s likely to just go around them. If the past two weeks are any guide, the conventional institutions are unlikely to provide much of a buffer from a President intent on ignoring them.

In the meantime, Mr Trump will continue to build parallel institutions, that mean that should the support from all the institutions evaporate, he can still carry on.
Consider this: Mr Trump has retained his own private security, rather than relying exclusively on the Secret Service. Indeed, the man who has been head of security for 15 years, Keith Schiller, is now the head of Oval Office operations. This has never happened before. The US Secret Service has an institutional imperative to protect the President, regardless of what happens.

Of course, if all the institutions did turn against President Trump, and it became murky about who the legitimate President was, who knows how the US Secret Service would react. Which makes having your own people on the ground quite useful, doesn’t it?

Charles Firth majored in Economic (Social Science) at Sydney University. He is also editor of The Chaser Quarterly. Follow him on Twitter @charlesfirth
 
I posted this link in the other thread, and it may Bear some relevance here in a roundabout way maybe...


http://www.mystatesman.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/hour-from-austin-trump-first-two-weeks-are-cause-for-celebration/4h8oKwdJQuXUAK73suLPmN/

When you read the article, you will see that because of the fact that trump issued EOs, they are happy and consider him to have "done his job". Despite the fact that we already know EOs can have a habit of ending up in court...so, there's a strong upsurge of once the initial deed is done, for good or ill, people don't follow up or fact check....so even if things get overturned or the wall never gets through congress because no one is willing to fund it with no budget for it, he issued those EOs and that made people happy, as it was supposed to....cue applause from increased fan base here and also further division between people who see major problems ahead with those types in the article....I don't see us going anywhere good based on these events.
 
I just read your article, I guess that it's all sh@* and giggles until he specifically starts violating their civil liberties and when basic economic principals tell me he is introducing measures that will point you in the direction of another global recession, but he'll be long out of the White House by then and die hard conservative Americans can blame the next more liberal leaders for the state of your economy once again....

The whole point of me posting this article was before, during, and after Trump's election conservatives, his supporters, any one that helped him get elected, all said don't worry it will be alright his party and the political processes, the constitution, the underlying democratic "machine" if you like will keep Trump in check so that he won't be able to just do whatever he wants..... clearly if we look at the examples in the article above, this isn't true.
 
arkieb1|1486274926|4124451 said:
I just read your article, I guess that it's all sh@* and giggles until he specifically starts violating their civil liberties and when basic economic principals tell me he is introducing measures that will point you in the direction of another global recession, but he'll be long out of the White House by then and die hard conservative Americans can blame the next more liberal leaders for the state of your economy once again....


I wish I could post anything but this.... :blackeye: :(( :errrr: :(sad :(sad

I ran out of sad icons....
 
A coup?
No, he was elected by our system.

The coup was the infection of US voters.

Shity voters elect shity president.
Pure democracy, unfortunately. :nono:
 
I was going to agree that it seemed entirely possible that the United States was headed headed towards a coup; then I read kenny's posting. He makes a good point.

Can we really call what Trump is doing a coup if he is doing what he was elected to do? I grant you that it is illegal and unconstitutional and that he should be stopped by the rule of law, but can one call it a coup d'état? So far he has not appropriated the military for his personal use. I guess we can wait and see if he does and whether the US military is so easily swayed from its duty. Maybe in the name of "national security" soldiers will follow his orders because he is The Commander-in-Chief and they will be illegal orders.

AGBF
 
arkieb1|1486271879|4124443 said:



I know this sounds like a joke, but one of the orders — honestly — declared the day of his inauguration The National Day of Patriotic Devotion. I’m not making it up. The Order itself reads like a decree from Kim Jong Un.



I remember hearing this announced on television the day of Trump's inauguration. It sounded unbelievable. This proclamation should actually have a thread of its own, a newspaper article of its own, a lengthy magazine article of its own! Where are all the armchair psychoanalysts who diagnosed Trump as a narcissist now? ;))

AGBF
 
AGBF|1486293144|4124472 said:
arkieb1|1486271879|4124443 said:



I know this sounds like a joke, but one of the orders — honestly — declared the day of his inauguration The National Day of Patriotic Devotion. I’m not making it up. The Order itself reads like a decree from Kim Jong Un.



I remember hearing this announced on television the day of Trump's inauguration. It sounded unbelievable. This proclamation should actually have a thread of its own, a newspaper article of its own, a lengthy magazine article of its own! Where are all the armchair psychoanalysts who diagnosed Trump as a narcissist now? ;))

AGBF

They don't have time to write anything at the moment because they are all busy packing up their households for the move to Canada.
 
kenny|1486288702|4124467 said:
A coup?
No, he was elected by our system.

The coup was the infection of US voters.

Shity voters elect shity president.
Pure democracy, unfortunately. :nono:

And they flip their lids when we even suggest any of these people are "dumb", "uneducated" and "badly misinformed", and to quote from another well known P/Ser here, "we are only looking at the negatives and blowing his lack of mental stability out of all proportions".

And yet..... here we are, from what I can see you have a new president hellbent on circumventing your constitution and to quote another conservative P/Ser (her remarks were about the previous 8 years Obama was in office so I'm using irony here) "using your constitution as toilet paper".
 
bunnycat|1486274406|4124450 said:
I posted this link in the other thread, and it may Bear some relevance here in a roundabout way maybe...


http://www.mystatesman.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/hour-from-austin-trump-first-two-weeks-are-cause-for-celebration/4h8oKwdJQuXUAK73suLPmN/

When you read the article, you will see that because of the fact that trump issued EOs, they are happy and consider him to have "done his job". Despite the fact that we already know EOs can have a habit of ending up in court...so, there's a strong upsurge of once the initial deed is done, for good or ill, people don't follow up or fact check....so even if things get overturned or the wall never gets through congress because no one is willing to fund it with no budget for it, he issued those EOs and that made people happy, as it was supposed to....cue applause from increased fan base here and also further division between people who see major problems ahead with those types in the article....I don't see us going anywhere good based on these events.

Hola Bunnycat, I lived in Austin for over 17 years.... Burnett is hardly bucolic. Texas is chock full of white is right, gun loving, poorly educated whites. Basically, all these Burnett Cty people are is racists. Texas is not an anomaly, sadly. Once I was flying back to Atown from somewhere and it was on Southwest, the flight steward announced: we are now circling a little sea of blue in a horrible red ocean, I ROFLMAO! most people didn't get it. I don't know where we are going, but it's scary.
 
AGBF|1486293144|4124472 said:
arkieb1|1486271879|4124443 said:



I know this sounds like a joke, but one of the orders — honestly — declared the day of his inauguration The National Day of Patriotic Devotion. I’m not making it up. The Order itself reads like a decree from Kim Jong Un.



I remember hearing this announced on television the day of Trump's inauguration. It sounded unbelievable. This proclamation should actually have a thread of its own, a newspaper article of its own, a lengthy magazine article of its own! Where are all the armchair psychoanalysts who diagnosed Trump as a narcissist now? ;))

AGBF


A president can declare a one day (non repeating) holiday. They have that power and several presidents have done it. This is mostly fluff again designed to make people mad. He did it after the day, I think....so it is moot...but still not surprising that he made it about himself....and connected it to religion, probably in an attempt to garner more support from that base...
 
Dee*Jay|1486304530|4124489 said:
AGBF|1486293144|4124472 said:
arkieb1|1486271879|4124443 said:



I know this sounds like a joke, but one of the orders — honestly — declared the day of his inauguration The National Day of Patriotic Devotion. I’m not making it up. The Order itself reads like a decree from Kim Jong Un.



I remember hearing this announced on television the day of Trump's inauguration. It sounded unbelievable. This proclamation should actually have a thread of its own, a newspaper article of its own, a lengthy magazine article of its own! Where are all the armchair psychoanalysts who diagnosed Trump as a narcissist now? ;))

AGBF

They don't have time to write anything at the moment because they are all busy packing up their households for the move to Canada.

Can someone please adopt me? :wavey:
 
Tekate|1486306064|4124498 said:
bunnycat|1486274406|4124450 said:
I posted this link in the other thread, and it may Bear some relevance here in a roundabout way maybe...


http://www.mystatesman.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/hour-from-austin-trump-first-two-weeks-are-cause-for-celebration/4h8oKwdJQuXUAK73suLPmN/

When you read the article, you will see that because of the fact that trump issued EOs, they are happy and consider him to have "done his job". Despite the fact that we already know EOs can have a habit of ending up in court...so, there's a strong upsurge of once the initial deed is done, for good or ill, people don't follow up or fact check....so even if things get overturned or the wall never gets through congress because no one is willing to fund it with no budget for it, he issued those EOs and that made people happy, as it was supposed to....cue applause from increased fan base here and also further division between people who see major problems ahead with those types in the article....I don't see us going anywhere good based on these events.

Hola Bunnycat, I lived in Austin for over 17 years.... Burnett is hardly bucolic. Texas is chock full of white is right, gun loving, poorly educated whites. Basically, all these Burnett Cty people are is racists. Texas is not an anomaly, sadly. Once I was flying back to Atown from somewhere and it was on Southwest, the flight steward announced: we are now circling a little sea of blue in a horrible red ocean, I ROFLMAO! most people didn't get it. I don't know where we are going, but it's scary.


Yes and sadly this article echos a similar sentiment to an article I read from a journalist in Arizona.
 
arkieb1, does that article link to sources (for example, that executive order, the military not having a seat in the NSC, etc...)? I'm already alarmed at what's going on - heck, I was panicked when the election results were rolling in - but before I totally freak out and lose it, I'd like to actually know that what's on this article truly happened or that their interpretation of what can happen is valid.

Thanks.
 
t-c|1486309455|4124525 said:
arkieb1, does that article link to sources (for example, that executive order, the military not having a seat in the NSC, etc...)? I'm already alarmed at what's going on - heck, I was panicked when the election results were rolling in - but before I totally freak out and lose it, I'd like to actually know that what's on this article truly happened or that their interpretation of what can happen is valid.

Thanks.

Some differing versions out there, but none particularly comforting, IMO

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-steve-bannon-chief-political-strategist-role-questioned-within-administration-a7553276.html

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/29/trump-priebus-nsc-steve-bannon
 
t-c|1486309455|4124525 said:
arkieb1, does that article link to sources (for example, that executive order, the military not having a seat in the NSC, etc...)? I'm already alarmed at what's going on - heck, I was panicked when the election results were rolling in - but before I totally freak out and lose it, I'd like to actually know that what's on this article truly happened or that their interpretation of what can happen is valid.

Thanks.

The military heads still have seats at the NSC, the difference is Bannon is now the guy chairing it, in the past this was always someone the joint chiefs nominated themselves. Google it, you will get a wide range of sources that confirm this. As to Trumps reasons that is purely speculation. Trumps camp argues they have done this so that Trump and Bannon have a more accurate view at all times of what is going on and that Bannon is only there to "observe". Make of that what you will.

People on the far right would also probably debate the amount of staff he has working at the White House the 660 includes everyone, all the researchers, all the little people that make the political machine work effectively, this number is much much smaller if you only count the main heads of each department;

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/19/us/trump-cabinet-picks-inauguration.html?_r=0

Putting a ban on who can enter your country based on religion or country indeed on paper seems highly unconstitutional to me. The only other thing that you could argue is incorrect in the article above, is there is obviously no coup, that is just conjecture at this point in time, but the fact remains, Trump either prefers an authoritarian way of doing things, and/or he is incompetent. The fact he has no political experience I'd lean towards the latter but either way it should concern all US citizens.
 
arkieb1|1486333256|4124654 said:
t-c|1486309455|4124525 said:
arkieb1, does that article link to sources (for example, that executive order, the military not having a seat in the NSC, etc...)? I'm already alarmed at what's going on - heck, I was panicked when the election results were rolling in - but before I totally freak out and lose it, I'd like to actually know that what's on this article truly happened or that their interpretation of what can happen is valid.

Thanks.

The military heads still have seats at the NSC, the difference is Bannon is now the guy chairing it, in the past this was always someone the joint chiefs nominated themselves. Google it, you will get a wide range of sources that confirm this. As to Trumps reasons that is purely speculation. Trumps camp argues they have done this so that Trump and Bannon have a more accurate view at all times of what is going on and that Bannon is only there to "observe". Make of that what you will.

People on the far right would also probably debate the amount of staff he has working at the White House the 660 includes everyone, all the researchers, all the little people that make the political machine work effectively, this number is much much smaller if you only count the main heads of each department;

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/19/us/trump-cabinet-picks-inauguration.html?_r=0

Putting a ban on who can enter your country based on religion or country indeed on paper seems highly unconstitutional to me. The only other thing that you could argue is incorrect in the article above, is there is obviously no coup, that is just conjecture at this point in time, but the fact remains, Trump either prefers an authoritarian way of doing things, and/or he is incompetent. The fact he has no political experience I'd lean towards the latter but either way it should concern all US citizens.
This isn't an either/or situation. He is both.
 
Yes that is entirely true, what I was suggesting by those comments is that doesn't mean he necessarily has the brains to lead a coup....
 
arkieb1|1486336666|4124672 said:
Yes that is entirely true, what I was suggesting by those comments is that doesn't mean he necessarily has the brains to lead a coup....

That would be true if he were in charge rather than a puppet of bannon and other powerful people that are his closest advisers.
 
Matata|1486338821|4124676 said:
arkieb1|1486336666|4124672 said:
Yes that is entirely true, what I was suggesting by those comments is that doesn't mean he necessarily has the brains to lead a coup....

That would be true if he were in charge rather than a puppet of bannon and other powerful people that are his closest advisers.

Except, that I suspect he is calling the plot of many of the decisions based around his own agendas, what the American people seem to forget is this is a guy that has hundreds of millions of dollars worth of loans to banks in the US yet here he is saying he is going to lift/change the amount of corporate and financial governance i.e accountability these banks need to have. And it gets even murkier when we realise he owes Putin's oligarch friends millions in Russia, the Central Bank of China hundreds of millions of dollars and the Deutsche bank in Germany another estimated $300 million.

The American people were outraged that a woman who at the time held a position that required top national security wouldn't release what was in those personal emails for everyone to see your national secrets, yet they fail to see, the person regulating or more accurately removing regulations for banks that he owes billions to in the US has arguably a severe conflict of interest going on. In a fair and equal world, the wolves that called to read those emails, that made such a big deal about them on the basis of corruption, should be demanding to know both who he owes money to domestically and what foreign ties and interests he actually has outside the US.
 
Matata|1486338821|4124676 said:
arkieb1|1486336666|4124672 said:
Yes that is entirely true, what I was suggesting by those comments is that doesn't mean he necessarily has the brains to lead a coup....

That would be true if he were in charge rather than a puppet of bannon and other powerful people that are his closest advisers.

I guess the point I was making badly above with that example is he probably has more brains than we give him credit for, after all he is stacking his advisors with either people who share his right wing ideals or people like his own son in law that will never question his integrity in the decisions he makes like the example of lifting/changing banking regulations I have given above.
 
t-c|1486309455|4124525 said:
arkieb1, does that article link to sources (for example, that executive order, the military not having a seat in the NSC, etc...)? I'm already alarmed at what's going on - heck, I was panicked when the election results were rolling in - but before I totally freak out and lose it, I'd like to actually know that what's on this article truly happened or that their interpretation of what can happen is valid.

Thanks.

Here is the EO related to this. Read the final sentence regarding the Joint Chiefs:

Trump’s executive order of Jan. 28, titled “Presidential Memorandum: Organization of the National Security Council and the Homeland Security Council,” affirms that the Principals Committee “shall continue to serve as the Cabinet-level senior interagency forum for considering policy issues that affect the national security interests of the United States.” The memo then goes on to state that the committee’s “regular attendees” shall include the secretaries of state, treasury, defense, and homeland security; the attorney general; and the national security adviser, who formally calls such meetings. (The director of national intelligence and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are also invited to attend “when issues pertaining to their responsibilities and expertise are to be discussed.”)

And then added this:

But, among those other senior officials, the memo also includes in its list of regular attendees “the Assistant to the President and Chief Strategist”—in other words, Steve Bannon.

They used a Constitutional ambiguity as a loophole to add Bannon.

Title 50 of the U.S. Code, Section 3021 : The Council shall be composed of—
(1) the President;
(2) the Vice President;
(3) the Secretary of State;
(4) the Secretary of Defense;
(5) the Secretary of Energy; and
(6) the Secretaries and Under Secretaries of other executive departments and of the military departments, when appointed by the President by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to serve at his pleasure.

AMbigity here is that they are skirting the issue by making no distinction between Bannon being an attendee, and Bannon being able to actively participate....and since the JcoS have had their opinions curtailed to " when issues pertaining to their responsibilities and expertise are to be discussed.” you can see where this might be leading.....Even Bush did not let Rove attend NSC meetings.
 
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