is it too late?

[jewanu]

My Bf and I have been living together for 3.5 years. We went out for 2 years before that so total of 5.5years. Although he has been told at various stages through the relationship to "hurry up" - i.e. an indication from me that marriage and being "surprised" is important to me, there is still no ring.
I''m at the point now that i think the time has passed. i am never going to get what I want - which was to be surprised. Which was to have him organise a proposal without me having to say anything. We bought a house together 6 months ago and are hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt together - so it is never going to be a surprise now and I have had to ask "when", drop hints etc. so that is gone too.
So do I still want to be married? I don''t know. I''m insulted that I have not been asked so far - why hasn''t he made it a priority to save for the ring and organise the proposal? I want him to ask me, because it is an action that indicates he is capable of organising something for us, but when I think about the actual day, it seems irrelevant. Do I need a ring? No. Do i need a dress? No. Do I need a big party with friends and family? No. Do I need to proclaim our love and partnership in front of God? Not really.
Do I need to be Mrs Lxxxxx? I''d rather just be Jewanu. I like myself and who I am and do not measure my self esteem in being Mrs Someone.
We''re doing what we can to make our joint financial position stronger and I have laid out a timeline for children (go off the pill in early ''06) we''ve bought a house in an area we love - we have a nice lifestyle, companionship, support and comfort each other etc. all those things you want from a relationship - so will marriage make any difference?
If and when he asks me, I can''t imagine feeling anything other than - "it''s about time" - or "it''s too late, you should have done this before we bought the house" and who wants to accept a proposal feeling like that? so maybe i should just let go and accept the fact that the partner I chose didn''t deliver what I wanted. he''d have to organise something mega special and totally blow me away to make it a positive experience - does it sound like it''s too late?

 

[heart prongs]

Ahh, I remember those feelings well! And I hear you on the idea of wanting him to organize something and surprise you...it doesn''t seem like it should be that difficult does it?! I do think, however, that men just work differently. My husband and I have been together for a total of almost 5 1/2 years now. We dated for 3 1/2 years before we were engaged and lived together pretty much after the first year. I felt as though he, and we, needed to get moving with our lives. He had switched careers and gone back to school. His feelings were...I want to marry you, but I also want you to have a very respectable ring and a wonderful wedding and honeymoon. I can''t make that happen quite yet. I will say that when the proposal did happen in Sept. 2003...all those feelings of resentment and nervous anticipation went COMPLETELY away. He did surprise me! He did plan it! And it was fabulous! Perhaps he is just waiting because of $$$, I mean, you guys did just buy a house...Men, by instinct, want to feel as though they can provide...and isn''t that a good thing? You''re on a diamond site, so that means you want a ring, right? If we had gotten married when we first knew we loved each other and wanted to be together forever, we never would have been able to have the ring, the wedding, and the HM of our dreams. And those memories were totally worth waiting for...trust me!

I think what you''re looking for is simply the next stage in your relationship -- cause let''s face it -- things need to continually change and evolve as time goes by. You''re feeling a bit "stuck" right now, and questioning "what''s the point?" Apparently, he doesn''t think I deserve what seemingly every other woman in the world gets. Is it just one of those days when you''re fed up or do you feel like this all the time? How has he been when you''ve discussed marriage and children? I''m sure he''s got something planned, and when you live together...surprises are not that easy to plan, esp. for boys! Hope you''re feeling better...klr

 

[kaylagee]

Unless he''s crazy, I''m sure he knows just what you want... esp. being w/you for all of these years.

This may sound harsh, but I would move out ASAP and start building my own life. I''m sure a lawyer/financial advisor can help with the financial pretzel.

If he wants you back, he''ll get his act together and propose.
****
BTW: Is this the new thing..buying property together and intentionally having children before marriage? A girl called into the Suze Orman show recently with a similar situation.

I just don''t get it!

 

[MissAva]

Not everyone gets married...ie Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell. For myself I have told my BF that I will not live with him until we are married. (The one exception I gave was if we were engaged and their was a drastic move involved, I wont waste money on a secondhouse/apt out of state to prove a point.) However I dont like the idea living together before marriage....and reading on here makes me more sure. I wouldnt have children out of wedlock beucase I think it would make life harder for them, I work with kids and there is a very real stigma to not having parents married, even if they live together. I really think it is a matter of how you choose to live your own life, though I belive that when you involve children everything changes. I am with Kayllagee on this one. Move out, get a lawyer, do not go back until you are certain that he wants forever, legally.

 

[windy1365]

I think it''s very important to live with someone before you marry them to make sure that you are compatiable. People can hide a lot about their personalities.... but it all comes out in the open when you live together. But, I don''t agree that you should buy a house together unless engaged or married.

I didn''t move in with my fiancee until after we were engaged. We are totally compatiable. But... my exboyfriend and I lived together, and after I moved in with him, he totally changed... or did he really? I just got to know the real him. I then left him.

Anyway... about this current situation, it sounds like the guy has what he wants. He is perfectly happy to just live together forever and not marry you. I agree with the other girls that you should move out. It seems very weird that he is willing to have a child with you but not marry you!! He probably figures that you have put up with it this long...so what reason does he have to change his behavior? Maybe you have threatened him in the past and gave ultimatums... but if you didn''t go through with it, it was just words.

I know it sucks to start all over after investing that much time in a relationship... but the longer you stay in a dead end relationship, the longer you are keeping yourself from meeting your true love.

 

[Shay]

But, I don''t agree that you should buy a house together unless engaged or married.

Well my bf and I have just done this. He has told me that we will be married in the next 2 years and I know this is a fact. It makes financial sense to buy a house and pay off 6000 off our bond every month rather than rent and pay 5000 off someone elses bond for the next 2 years till we are ''official''. By the time we are married we will be well established and secure instead of dealing with all the ''just starting out'' stress.

Of couse we have been friends for 10 years so even if we were never to get married or even if we broke up; co-owning a house wouln''t be a problem for us. And even if we were to sell in a year we''d make a profit with this property market

My point is that it''s silly to say "never move in before marriage" or add these other provisions onto strangers relationships. I can guarantee their situation is not the same as yours and you are not qualified to judge a situation that you have barey any knowledge of.

Jewanu I am sorry that you feel this way. And I have to ask, have you spoken to your bf about the way you feel? Maybe he has no idea how badly you want this. I wish you the best of luck and hope everything works out beautifully for you.

 

[Momoftwo]

Do you tell him how you feel about it? You have to communicate with him. My feeling is he has no incentive. You''ve been living together for 3.5 years and he''s comfortable. I agree you should tell him you''ve waited long enough and you''re going to move out on such and such a date if he doesn''t commit. And that is not a threat or an ultimatum, just a fact. BTW, living together is not a commitment. It''s also not the same as being married. Statistics also show people who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce than those who don''t. There are quite a few guys who are perfectly happy living with someone because they''re afraid of marriage or commitment ot whatever. That''s their issue, not yours. I''d also say, do not have children without being married. It''s not fair to anyone. Just because others do it doesn''t make it right or good for the children.

It also sounds like you''re expecting a lot from a simple question. I think there''s more going on here than a lack of proposal.

 

[heart prongs]

"BTW, living together is not a commitment. It''s also not the same as being married. Statistics also show people who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce than those who don''t. There are quite a few guys who are perfectly happy living with someone because they''re afraid of marriage or commitment ot whatever. That''s their issue, not yours. I''d also say, do not have children without being married. It''s not fair to anyone. Just because others do it doesn''t make it right or good for the children."

Living together is definitely a commitment, and people don''t always do it to test the waters or b/c they''re not ready for a "real" (whatever that means -- to steal a phrase from you

) commitment. There are a variety of reasons people cohabitate...and, at least in my circles, it''s hardly about "fear" of marriage -- it''s more like a step towards marriage and the reason for doing so is different for every couple. What bothers me is the blanket statements being made here...I highly doubt that these "statistics" on divorce that you speak of speak to all situations -- nor do I even believe that what you said is true but that''s beside the point! What is the source of your info???

I also don''t think anyone has the right to say, "do not have children w/o being married"...I personally wouldn''t do it, but that doesn''t mean I have the authority to say that to someone else! We don''t know how old this person is, if there is a family history of early menopause, etc...not fair to pass judgment, esp. when that''s not what she asked for...And I think it''s a bit insulting to insinuate that someone is planning to have children out of wedlock because "others do it"!!!

We moved in together before marriage b/c we wanted to be together all the time...plain and simple! We liked sharing meals together, waking up together, saving $$ for marriage together...

But as I said before, it was important for my now husband and I both that I have a beautiful ring, that we have a wedding right on the water with all our closest family and friends, and that we were able to go to Hawaii for our 2 week HM and really do it right. We couldn''t have made that happen earlier.

Jewanu knows that she needs to have a good heart to heart talk w/ her boyfriend...and I doubt she''s even going to see this because that was her first and only post!

the-happily-married-even-though-we-lived-together-first, klr

 

[Layne]

Jewanu,
In my opinoin, it isn''t too late unless you decide it is. I agree with the others, talk with your boyfriend and let him know how serious you are about wanting marriage. It sounds like you two have made plently of big decisions together and had serious discussions (children). Maybe, even though you feel like you have expressed it before, he just hasn''t heard you completly. Good luck!

Other advice givers,
Buying a house together before engagement or marriage: I don''t think this is a bad or great idea. I do think it is good to figure out how you would deal with large purchases before you are marrried. One thing I think of- are you the recipent of your SO''s life insurance money? (Assuming they even have life insurance) Could you afford that house payement yourself if they were diasbled or died? And- what if you break up? Who will get the house? Not everyone has as good of a situation as Shay!
Living together before marriage: I have to say that I really dislike it when this "statistic" is mentioned (although I have to admitt I used to use it myself!). I was interested and looked into some of these studies of success or failure of marriages. First, people who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce if they move in together before being engaged or moving quickly towards engagement. While I realize that this doesn''t seem to be the case for Jewanu, it is not applicable to all people who live together before marriage.
Children before marriage: Although there is a stigma in some social circles I find that it is more and more acceptable. I think that it all depends on how the parents choose to deal with the situation.

I guess I should end this saying I''m considered to be a conservative by most people. We didn''t buy a house, live together, or have children before marriage. I''m always interested to read what others think of these complex social situations.

 

[NoonersMom]

Wow....just found this post. First for Jenwau, at the end of the day you need to follow your heart of hearts & listen to your gut. As heart prongs said, you probably already know that you need to have a heart to heart with your boyfriend.

Regarding children, it is not fair or right to judge someone without knowing the situation. I have a friend that when she was 35 seriously considered having children by herself. She looked into support groups for single parents that made that choice, she considered who her donors were going to be & approached them, etc. She took the steps because she thought it was right for her. Additionally, she could financially support them. However, life surprised her & she met a wonderful man that she fell in love with & married. They will be married a year this May & will start trying to have a family. Each situation is different.

Regarding living together & divorces....did you know that the states with the highest amount of divorce are the bible belt states? Does that mean one should not go to church? Each situation is different. My partner & I decided to by a house first because we knew the interest rates wouldn''t be this low again in a long time. The choice for us was to make sure we were making the right financial decisions & preparing for our future. It''s worked out for us. Do I think he is any less commited? Absolutely not. It''s simply a matter of deciding what is best for you.

Have the heart to heart, see how your partner responds, do a little soul searching & determine what is important to you. Sometimes you have to go out on a limb to get the fruit. Good luck.

 

[fire&ice]

The statistic isn''t about the divorce rate. The "statistic" indicates that many couples who live together do not stay together if no marriage is in the future.

That said, ask yourself if you really want marriage. If so, then request it. I don''t buy into this whole - when we pay off our debts unless one person has substantial debt that the other (with a union) will inherit.

Part of being a commited couple is recognizing the importance of things your SO place on something. If your SO can not recognize that you *want* to be married, then I''m with the others - move out. I know one couple who have been living together for 15 years. She despretely wants to be married (and has for years). It''s so sad to me. He won''t marry her. Doesn''t this tell *her* something?

We had a heated thread about living together before marriage. Honestly, to each his own. We did not live together prior to marrying. It was kind of fun moving in with him - being carried over the threshold, and adjusting to living styles. BUT - I had no surprises regarding the overall picture. I knew him well enough.

 

[MissAva]

Date: 4/20/2005 5:47:11 AM
Author: Shay
But, I don''t agree that you should buy a house together unless engaged or married.

Well my bf and I have just done this. He has told me that we will be married in the next 2 years and I know this is a fact. It makes financial sense to buy a house and pay off 6000 off our bond every month rather than rent and pay 5000 off someone elses bond for the next 2 years till we are ''official''. By the time we are married we will be well established and secure instead of dealing with all the ''just starting out'' stress.

Of couse we have been friends for 10 years so even if we were never to get married or even if we broke up; co-owning a house wouln''t be a problem for us. And even if we were to sell in a year we''d make a profit with this property market

My point is that it''s silly to say ''never move in before marriage'' or add these other provisions onto strangers relationships. I can guarantee their situation is not the same as yours and you are not qualified to judge a situation that you have barey any knowledge of.

Jewanu I am sorry that you feel this way. And I have to ask, have you spoken to your bf about the way you feel? Maybe he has no idea how badly you want this. I wish you the best of luck and hope everything works out beautifully for you.

I didnt say that no one should....just that I wouldnt. I would not feel comfetable. And I did put qulifiers in my post.... As for mom of twos comments sadly she is right. In marriage and family we discussed this and the possible reasons and there are some indacators. And there have been about 35-40 studies done on this in the last 20 years. Yes the rates are higher but not 100% some people live together first and stay together. The personality profiles for couples who movie intogether are different then those who dotn or wont, but that doesnt make them wrong, just different. (Marriage rates are higher in the south so divorce rates are but purpotinatly the differnce isnt really there. Again above class stats for that 2003, also people who attend church on a regular basis , two or more times a month have signifgantly lower divorce rates)
As for the kids thing I wasnt talking about adults judgeing I was talking about the child to child issues. I work in elementary schools and I love it, but if you think I dont know which kids were born out of wedlock...well the other kids let you know and those kids get teased way more often (at least once a week for most) about the choices their parents made. It makes me sad that they have to go through that. Though In my studies I have to say the research I have read indicates that unweb mothers particurly those who are under 21 and from a lower Socioeconomic class are not always better with the man who got them pregnant. (I dont think those are the cases being discussed here though).
I belive that much like the taking his name thing this is a deeply personal issue and that no one person, not even you best friend can truly understand the dynamics of anothers relationship. Jewanu I hope things work out for you. As much as everyone here wants to help, and we do, none of us will have to live with the consequences. Best of luck and I hope you post again soon.

 

[windy1365]

Shay... I was stating my opinion when I said that you shouldn''t buy a house together unless you are married or engaged. That is based on my personal experience.

When I went to purchase my last car, my boyfriend at the time was going to sign with me b/c I only had a part time job, but I wanted a 30k car. (I was about to graduate college, so I figured I would get a really good job right out of college - which I did!) I had a car that I owned to trade in... worth about $10k. The guy at the dealership refused to let us sign together on the car b/c he had seen too many times the couple break up and it be a huge ordeal. But...since my best friend worked at the dealership, and he knew that I was about to graduate college, he let me get the car by myself.

Fast forward a year... I ended up breaking up with guy and he was very vengeful. He stole my jewelry, leather jackets, college diploma, etc. If I had signed for the car with him, I just know that he would have tried to take half of it... including my own $10k down payment. The next time I saw the guy from the car dealership, I thanked him profusely for not letting me co-sign with my ex-boyfriend.

Of course, it is understood that everyone''s situation is differently... Jewanu was asking for opinions. I can only give advice based on my own personal experience. Of course I am biased about it b/c of what I endured.

On the other hand... my mama just broke up with my stepdad after 14 years of marriage. My stepdad did not try to take anything from her. They separated peacefully even though she left him for another man. My stepdad had put a lot of money in the house, too!! He is just a great guy and not vengeful at all!!

 

[MrsFrk]

My husband and I were together for 8 years before we married, we had purchased 2 homes, several cars, adopted a few dogs. I had zero interest in being married. Then he fell ill, and even though we had living wills and all that jazz, the hospital quite frankly only cares if you are the WIFE.

My husband is what I like to call a Super-Prag. He is a child of divorce, his parents were absolute idiots regarding money, and it made for a very unhappy, very unstable childhood. His way of showing his love, his commitment, is by being fiscally responsible and making sure that we are on solid footing financially. Is it romantic? Nope. Do I feel loved? You betcha. When I decided that I wanted to get married, I simply told him so. And we did. He will never, ever be a hearts and flowers type romantic dude, and I have accepted that. There are plenty of men who are, and are jerks.

No matter what, do what feels right in your heart. Good luck!

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 4/22/2005 1:30:44 AM
Author: MrsFrk

He will never, ever be a hearts and flowers type romantic dude, and I have accepted that. There are plenty of men who are, and are jerks.

Excellent point, and one that I think really speaks to what I think the problem may be, Jewanu.

You're saying "I want to be surprised....I want him to "organize" a proposal. I want him to ask me, because it is an action that indicates he is capable of organizing something for us." he'd have to organise something mega special and totally blow me away to make it a positive experience.

It's clear from these comments that you expect a "romantic", grandiose, sweep-you-off-your-feet proposal. My gut instinct is: he fears anything he comes up with won't be good enough, so he's afraid to try....and that's why you haven't been proposed to yet.

I'm insulted that I have not been asked so far." If and when he asks me, I can't imagine feeling anything other than - "it's about time" - or "it's too late, you should have done this before we bought the house" I suspect that you *would* have been asked by now--maybe even before you bought the house--if there weren't so much pressure on *how* the proposal is done. I think you haven't been asked not because he doesn't want to ask, but because he feels like he cannot come up with a way that will satisfy you.

He sounds like 90% of the men I know......most are *terrible* planners, *terrible* initiators. Asking them to plan *anything*....where to go on the honeymoon, what you'll do this weekend, what to do on vacation.......is like asking me to fix the vacuum cleaner. I'm totally uncomfortable and out of my element. I'm happy to use the vacuum, help select it, and even help pay for it---but don't expect me to do something I'm *not* good and expect me to fix it.

Part of solid relationships is accepting each other's strengths and weaknesses. If you're willing to understand that you cannot change someone, that you need to love them as they are, then why would you expect him in this instance to be something that he's not?

Initially, in my relationship with Rich, I was frustrated at always having to be "the planner"....especially when it came to wedding planning. I thought "it's OUR wedding....why can't WE plan it?" Why do I have to be the one to call the caterers and photographers, etc., etc. Why do I have to call to set an appointment when it's HIS tux? The answer was "because I'm naturally inclined to do those things, and he's not."

Life became much easier when I stopped trying to put the "square peg into the round hole". Instead of us each doing half or part of every task, he does for us what he's good at AND enjoys (fixing the vacuum, snowblowing the driveway, etc. etc.) and I do for us the things I'm good at AND enjoy (planning, cooking, etc.). Yes, he is capable of cooking but he doesn't enjoy it and I do. Yes, I'm capable of clearing the snow in the driveway but I don't enjoy it and he does.

The fact that your BF feels inadequate at planning a Harlequin-romance-worthy, swoonable proposal doesn't have a darned thing to do with his being capable of planning for the two of you. Planning isn't just the intiating, it's the implementing and executing the plan. If he weren't capable, you two wouldn't have been able to find/purchase a house together in an area you love and set a plan to strengthen your financial future. Obviously, his strengths lie in the input and in the collaborating, but not in the intiating.

The actual dictionary definition of romantic is "displaying, expressive of, or conducive to love." It doesn't say how. YOU can choose to find romance in a million other things if you want to; it's your choice how narrow or broad your personal defintion of romantic is.

My husband is romantic because he drops me off at the door when it's raining so I don't get soaked. Because he *never* gets a drink from the refrigerator for himself without asking "do you want something?" and bringing it to me even if I'm on a different floor of the house. Because he knows it drives me insane if he leaves coffee cups all over, so he makes a HUGE effort not to do it. These and a million different other things are expressions of his love for me. For him, I'm romantic because I bring him coffee every morning, I wash his clothes, I plan our schedules, and a million different other things to make his life easier and happy.

We have a nice lifestyle, companionship, support and comfort each other etc. all those things you want from a relationship......

You have "all those things you want in a relationship?" You are truly lucky. I had to wait nearly half my life to find that, and some people NEVER find it.

Maybe i should just let go and accept the fact that the partner I chose didn't deliver what I wanted.

Maybe you should rejoice in the fact that the partner you chose delivered the things that you *NEEDED*....things that are lasting and things that are important. It's impossible for one individual to fulfill every single want you'll ever have; I'm sure this won't be the only disappointment. But is it really worth throwing away because of one disappointment?

 

[ammayernyc]

My good friend explained it to me the best that anyone had...

Women are dating, dating, dating... ready to be engaged, ready to be engaged, READY TO BE ENGAGED.

Men are dating, dating, dating, dating, dating, READY TO BE ENGAGED.

Sort of like a switch that goes off. We all may think about it and think about the ring and the proposal and the wedding... Men are one day not ready and the next day ready...

 

[heart prongs]

Eloquently stated, Alj...you just described my relationship with my husband to a tee...

klr

 

[MissAva]

AL- I love how you put that once again you have hit the nail on the head.

 

[Momoftwo]

Date: 4/20/2005 10:11:21 AM
Author: Layne
Jewanu,
& Living together before marriage: I have to say that I really dislike it when this 'statistic' is mentioned (although I have to admitt I used to use it myself!). I was interested and looked into some of these studies of success or failure of marriages. First, people who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce if they move in together before being engaged or moving quickly towards engagement. While I realize that this doesn't seem to be the case for Jewanu, it is not applicable to all people who live together before marriage.

Before you start believing that living together has no impact on length of relationships or on anyone else, please check this link and yes, I know it's by a chrisitian, Chuck Colson, but he backs up his stats with where he got them from

http://members.aol.com/cohabiting/facts.htm


There's also this: http://www.rmfc.org/fs/fs0064.html

And this from someone at PSU: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-08/ps-ltb080403.php

My point is you can come up with your own "logical" arguments to live together, but like a lot of things, just because a lot of people are doing it doesn't make it right or even good for those involved.

It would also make sense that since more people live together now than 30 years ago and the divorce rate is higher than 30 years ago, there is probably a link.

I guess being happily married for 24 years gives me no knowlege, but whatever.

And one more, http://www.smartmarriages.com/cohabit.html

Sorry, but I feel that someone saying it doesn't apply to them is like burying their head in the sand. BTW when I did this search about living together before marriage, every link I found on the first two pages were against it. Like I said originally, the OP's bf has no incentive to get married.

 

[partgypsy]

It''s funny, I don''t like that statistic of people who live together are more likely to divorce either, maybe because my husband and I lived together for 5 years before we got married, or maybe from the often judgemental tone in which it is made. For us, the big commitment was him moving with me south to an entirely new town for both of us, for me to go to graduate school. Although it was romantic and made it official when we got married, that wasn''t the big turning point in our relationship. I guess I have to say it is the commitment to the relationship that is important, not the status of living together, living separately, married, or unmarried. A wedding band is just another piece of jewelry if there is no feeling, no joining together of lives behind it. That is only something you and your significant other truly knows, in your hearts.

 

[heart prongs]

Hmmm...mom of two...I read the articles, and I have to say...they do not apply to my situation with my husband. While I agree that some marriages that begin with the couple living together first won''t work, I also believe that some marriages in which the couple does not live together will not work out. Either way, divorce is just sad!

The situations discussed in the smartmarriages article seem to be about male-dominated relationships...where the woman is just waiting, and the man is holding back...and not for a good reason. The also seem to be about people with commitment issues, which also does not apply to all cohabitating couples. My husband had a good reason to wait a little longer than I would have liked him to at the time -- it''s called practicality! He''s good at it; me...not so much! However, it makes for us a nice balance between what we can have now and what we need to wait for.

I''m so glad that my husband is the "practical" one in our relationship. He wanted to wait to get married until we could afford to do things the way he knew we both wanted -- in terms of the ring, the wedding, the honeymoon...I tend to be a bit idealistic, always thinking that everything will be perfect, regardless of cost -- and we both enjoy (but don''t need) nice things! Had we been married when I thought we were ready...there would have been no custom ring -- no two week HM in Hawaii. And I know we would have both regretted not being able to have those things.

As I mentioned before, we moved in together because we loved each other...and still do -- not to try things out!!! There was already a decision to marry, but not a date or a ring. Those things came in good time! My husband never would have proposed w/o a ring...just not our style.

I''m rambling a bit...but the point I''m trying to get across to you is that living together is fine for some people, not fine for others. We have no right to judge anyone else''s situation b/c we do not know all the details of everyone''s unique situations!!!

klr