Is Forgiveness the Key to Forgetting?

[Jambalaya]

For me, the end goal isn't the ability to forget; I think it's the ability to accept what is.

If someone hurts me and he's (or she's) truly remorseful (and shows that remorse by correcting the offending behavior), I need to accept his apology and accept that it wasn't meant to be hurtful. For me, that doesn't mean forgetting it - it means moving past it.

If he is unwilling or incapable of correcting the offending behavior, then I have to accept that it's out of my control. What is in my control is being honest with myself about my ability to live with that ongoing behavior and choosing to terminate the relationship if I can't live with it. That's not forgetting either; it's accepting that you can't change it, even as you wish you could.

Thanks, aljdewey. If she was very sorry as you describe, I could forgive her easily. In fact, I'd be overjoyed. But she's not the least bit sorry for any of the things she has done. So yes, it's about accepting that this relationship cannot be. It's hard. You probably know what I mean - I'm sure everyone has been through this in some way.

 

[Jambalaya]

Jambalaya,

The phrase 'forgive and forget' is an odd one in my opinion.

But I take it to mean the following:

Its about you, your thoughts and personal growth.

Forgiveness means to stop feeling anger, resentment or thoughts of vengeance. Holding onto negative, hateful thoughts is harmful to your health. That's why you should 'forgive'; it means let go of negative, angry feelings.

How do you do that?

Accept that we don't all share the same values; i.e., our beliefs about how to treat other people, the importance we place on honesty, consideration, empathy, etc. What we may think of as 'common decency' in not universally accepted or practiced. Our values prevent us from behaving a certain way; but some people have different values and wouldn't hesitate to behave in a certain manner.

Accept the fact that someone has done something, its a fact, and you can't change history.
You may not be able to convince the person to accept your value system and not repeat the behaviour you found unacceptable.
The other person's behaviour is about them, not you.

Remaining angry or upset won't change the other person's values or behaviours.
(Unless, of course, the person is willing to discuss the event, really hear the impact of their behaviour, and has the desire to change.)
Accept that you can't change the person, this is who they are, and decide if the person is the type of individual you want in your life.

You won't 'forget' what happened, and you shouldn't forget the lessons learned.
On reflection, you may note a pattern of 'red flags' that you didn't recognize at the time, or excused for one reason or another.

Concerning the person you mentioned who cheated with a friend's fiancé, I'm sorry to hear that her boyfriend at the time was abusive. Not an excuse for her behaviour, as you said, but a victim of abuse often feels very low self-esteem and their decision-making can be affected. Again, not an excuse, but I try to understand human behaviour. Sometimes behaviour is a clear demonstration of a person's personality and values. But sometimes there are underlying factors. My apologies if it sounds like I'm stating anything definitive about that person.

Concerning why the person was on your mind a lot around New Year's, it might be because we tend to reflect on where we are in life and what's happened when we are about to enter a new year. I wonder, though, if it was prompted by the actions of the person who didn't invite your family to their New Year's celebration (as you discussed in a different thread). Thinking about the behaviours of one person might cause you to reflect on the behaviours of another. It seems to me that in both situations, people did things that were hurtful and inconsiderate. Just a thought.

Jambalaya,
You are a thoughtful person who considers the feelings of others.

Thanks, December-fire, that's sweet. And thanks for your long input. I really appreciate the time you took.

And you are right about so many things - about the New Year making us think, and about being excluded bringing up other memories, and about the abuse that she suffered perhaps explaining things a little (but not excusing them).

But I think you really hit the nail on the head when you mentioned about different value systems. It's startling and new to realize that consideration of others and treating others as you'd want to be treated simply aren't guiding principles for some people. "Shrugs." She is pretty much alone in the world so perhaps her guiding light is to get what she needs, and others can deal with it. That's just a guess but someone might well have that value system, and that would explain a lot. Perhaps some people operate on the basis that they must look out for No. 1 because no one else will. Maybe people who do these selfish things actually believe they are doing themselves a favor by feeding their own needs at the expense of others, and they consider that to be OK. I'm just theorizing, but it's quite refreshing to place things in the context of a completely different value system. Makes it seem less personal.

What we may think of as 'common decency' in not universally accepted or practiced. Our values prevent us from behaving a certain way; but some people have different values and wouldn't hesitate to behave in a certain manner.

That is just SO true and so helpful. Thank you.

 

[Jambalaya]

I went out for dinner by myself and then bought myself some earrings, and now I feel much better, along with all the helpful replies. Thank you so much.

My new earrings are silver dangly hoops with a little silver bird sitting in each hoop, and silver leaves on the top of the hoop. They're so cute. I've wanted them for ages.

 

[december-fire]

Jambalaya,

Your new earrings sound beautiful!

This may sound crazy, but I think its so appropriate that your earrings have little silver birds.

You seem to be standing up for yourself, growing in confidence and independence, and ready to spread your wings and soar!

I love it!

And I'd love to see pictures of your earrings, if that's OK.

Oh, and keep in mind that someone's behaviour is often about them not you.

Hugs

 

[Gypsy]

I think my idea of forgiveness is ever evolving.

I've forgiven things I never thought I could. And I've not been able truly forgive things I would have thought I would be able to.

I think it also depends on your definition of forgiveness.

Forgiving in a vacuum, without the other person's remorse or apology is a hard thing. One I've so far really only managed once to my knowledge. And it wasn't 'true' forgiveness. My relationship will never be the same with that person, I am no longer truly invested in their well being the way I would be a true friend, my like I would be invested in the well being of a stranger off the street. And I don't trust them.

Most would say that's not forgiveness. For me, it's as close as I can manage with a true heartfelt apology.

On the other hand, in the face of true heartfelt remorse, I have forgiven things I would not have thought I could.

So I guess for me the key is 'heartfelt remorse'. At least so far.

 

[Jambalaya]

I think my idea of forgiveness is ever evolving.

I've forgiven things I never thought I could. And I've not been able truly forgive things I would have thought I would be able to.

I think it also depends on your definition of forgiveness.

Forgiving in a vacuum, without the other person's remorse or apology is a hard thing. One I've so far really only managed once to my knowledge. And it wasn't 'true' forgiveness. My relationship will never be the same with that person, I am no longer truly invested in their well being the way I would be a true friend, my like I would be invested in the well being of a stranger off the street. And I don't trust them.

Most would say that's not forgiveness. For me, it's as close as I can manage with a true heartfelt apology.

On the other hand, in the face of true heartfelt remorse, I have forgiven things I would not have thought I could.

So I guess for me the key is 'heartfelt remorse'. At least so far.

Yes, for me too, it's evolving. I think forgiveness - real, true, wholehearted forgiveness - is very difficult.

However, it does depend on how calculated the hurt was, and whether the perpetrator is really sorry. I Googled the topic and there was an example of a car crash where the young man who was driving survived but the passenger, another young man, was killed. The parents of the dead young man immediately forgave the driver and comforted him as he faced legal action. The writer of the article was very surprised at the parents' generosity. However, in this case, not only was the event a complete accident - the driver had no intention of crashing the car and killing his friend - the driver was also deeply sorry. I don't think I'd find it too hard to forgive that. It was purely accidental and the driver was crushed about what he had done.

But the person who betrayed our other friend....sleeping with the fiance multiple times was no accident, it was calculated hurt, and the betrayer wasn't really that sorry, as far as I could see. The betrayer didn't explain any of her behavior, fight to save the friendship, offer heartfelt apologies, or take any actions to try to make it up to the betrayee. (I'm not sure what could make up for that betrayal, but a person could try, if they were really sorry. Maybe she could have offered to do a certain amount of hours volunteering for a charity of the betrayee's choice, for example. It doesn't fix it, but it shows willing.) But it seemed that admitting to being in the wrong as little as possible was more important to her than even attempting to save the friendship.

So in a nutshell, yes absolutely, forgiving someone when there is no remorse on the part of the perpetrator is the difficult part. If someone was truly sorry and was going through agonies because of what they had done...well, that's much easier to forgive. However, I believe this situation is self-regulated to go one way, mostly: People who deliberately do terrible things that hurt others (i.e. not accidental things) are generally not sorry because if they were the type of person to be sorry, they wouldn't have done X awful thing in the first place. This has been illustrated to me a number of times in my life on a smaller scale than the things we've been discussing here. i.e. when someone does something unacceptable, as happens from time to time, so you call them out on it, and then they're upset with you for daring to call them out! This was the dynamic with our mutual betrayer. She was upset with both of us for daring to stand up to her. It's forgiving those people that's the challenge.

In this instance, I don't think that forgiveness means that you make it OK with the person and tell them that what they did doesn't matter anymore. I just think it means working through the pain and getting to a place where the person is not on your mind, and where you are not wishing revenge on them. That is, you get to a place where you have integrated what happened to you into your experience, you've examined it, put it away, and it doesn't have the same power over you that it once did.

I sometimes wonder how victims of heinous crimes manage to forgive and move on, especially considering that criminals on that scale are very, very rarely sorry.

 

[Jambalaya]

Jambalaya,

Your new earrings sound beautiful!

This may sound crazy, but I think its so appropriate that your earrings have little silver birds.

You seem to be standing up for yourself, growing in confidence and independence, and ready to spread your wings and soar!

I love it!

And I'd love to see pictures of your earrings, if that's OK.

Oh, and keep in mind that someone's behaviour is often about them not you.

Hugs

Aww, thank you december-fire! yes, the earrings are very cute and I will try to take photos of them soon. I'm up to my ears in chores today and the daylight is already fading, but I'll try to do it tomorrow!

ETA: I totally agree that often a person's behavior is about them, but the behaviors are targeted at you and so they feel really personal, even as you know that they treat others the same way.

 

[LLJsmom]

I find forgiveness very difficult. And in the end it hurts me a lot to hang on to the hurt than the perpetrator who often doesn't even know what he/she did wrong. . I know this yet I have trouble forgiving. Sad to say, I cut those people out of my life, more just to protect myself than for any other reason. I let time pass and I distance myself from the person and the situation. I don't force myself to actively forgive but I move forward with my life and focus on myself and the people that are important to me. Over time, I have discovered the pain lessens and I am less emotional about it and can see things from other perspectives and find it easier to be forgiving, when I can see that it wasn't all that crucial in the big picture. However, in my case, it is more just chronic verbal abuse rather than life scarring major events. In those cases I am not sure how j would react.

 

[momhappy]

I'm curious why you might feel the need to forget? We all have unpleasant/negative experiences in life and dealing with them (even if that means remembering them from time to time) is all part of learning and growing. As far as forgiveness is concerned, it can mean whatever you want it to. For me, it simply means finding some sort of comfort level with it. It means that while it may come to mind sometimes, I am still moving forward with my life. It might mean cutting ties or it might not - it really depends on the circumstances.

 

[Jambalaya]

[quote="momhappy|1453129958|3977491"]I'm curious why you might feel the need to forget? We all have unpleasant/negative experiences in life and dealing with them (even if that means remembering them from time to time) is all part of learning and growing. As far as forgiveness is concerned, it can mean whatever you want it to. For me, it simply means finding some sort of comfort level with it. It means that while it may come to mind sometimes, I am still moving forward with my life. It might mean cutting ties or it might not - it really depends on the circumstances.[/quote]

I mean forget about this person. She's on my mind much more than I'd like and thinking of her makes me feel Like with an ex-boyfriend, all you want to do is forget about them.

Not everyone has the kind of negative experiences that she dished out. I only know one person who's experienced the betrayal that I described - that other betrayee. Her betrayals were pretty epic, and I have never experienced anything else like it. I don't think it comes under the heading of "oh, negative experiences happen in life" etc etc. Most people don't have friends who do this kind of thing. I've only had one.

I knew her for fifty years. Perhaps I just need more time. As you and LLJsmom have said, you move forward and get a comfort level, but perhaps I am expecting too much too soon. I just hate when she's on my mind and I would like to get past that.

 

[Jambalaya]

I find forgiveness very difficult. And in the end it hurts me a lot to hang on to the hurt than the perpetrator who often doesn't even know what he/she did wrong. . I know this yet I have trouble forgiving. Sad to say, I cut those people out of my life, more just to protect myself than for any other reason. I let time pass and I distance myself from the person and the situation. I don't force myself to actively forgive but I move forward with my life and focus on myself and the people that are important to me. Over time, I have discovered the pain lessens and I am less emotional about it and can see things from other perspectives and find it easier to be forgiving, when I can see that it wasn't all that crucial in the big picture. However, in my case, it is more just chronic verbal abuse rather than life scarring major events. In those cases I am not sure how j would react.

What you describe, LLJsmom, is pretty much exactly how I've handled unpleasant people in the past. As you say though, major event in this instance. I've done a lot to work through it but she's still on my mind more than I'd like, and I just wondered if really forgiving someone in your heart is the key to forgetting. My definition of forgetting in this instance is not to forget the lessons learned or to let the person back into your life, but to get to a point where you'e put it away and you rarely think about the person who betrayed you so badly. I don't think of her when I'm busy, but quiet times like last thing at night and waking up in the morning, I wonder about her and if she misses me, etc. I just want to forget about her. Like you, I cut ties with people, but the trouble is that their ghosts do hang around for a while. Once, long ago in college, I was deeply in love and when we broke up I thought it was the end of the world. Of course, I've long since healed from that and I never think about him or wonder where he is or if he thinks of me. Never! I'd love to get to that stage with this person too. I was curious to know if forgiveness was the key. I suspect it's just time, though.

 

[kenny]

I'm curious why you might feel the need to forget? We all have unpleasant/negative experiences in life and dealing with them (even if that means remembering them from time to time) is all part of learning and growing. As far as forgiveness is concerned, it can mean whatever you want it to. For me, it simply means finding some sort of comfort level with it. It means that while it may come to mind sometimes, I am still moving forward with my life. It might mean cutting ties or it might not - it really depends on the circumstances.

+1

"Forgive and forget" is yet another mindless saying that caught on.

Why does society teach and pressure us to be/do/act in ways contrary to our nature?
Why does society teach and pressure us to all be one way, the so-called 'right' way?

Sometimes I see childhood as a time a person gets tied into as many knots an possible.
Then adulthood is 60 years of living a miserable life against our nature ...
A few lucky people spend 60 years untying all those knots.

 

[kenny]

... to add ...

IMO forgetting is not so much the goal.
The goal is no longer being bothered/haunted/affected by something bad someone did to you.

Even if you achieve that goal you'll still remember what he/she did.
The memory just loses its power to knock you off your bicycle.

The most extraordinary example is a holocaust camp survivor who lost all her family yet, famously, forgave Dr. Mengele.
IIRC she was one half of the many twins whom the doctor experimented on.

There's a documentary film about her. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489707/reviews
Clearly she has not 'forgotten'.

SNIP:

Eva Mozes Kor was one of thousands of Jews turned into "human guinea pigs" by Josef Mengele, the head Nazi doctor at the Auschwitz concentration camps during World War II. While Kor's other family members did not survive their horrific treatment, Kor somehow managed to live. After the war and liberation of the camp, Kor married and started a family in America, but still lived with the pain of the past. In the 1980s, Kor met the only surviving Nazi doctor of the era, Hans Munch, and persuaded him to come back to Auschwitz with her to declare that the Holocaust occurred. During the ceremony, Kor forgave Munch and a reporter asked her whether or not she could also forgive Mengele. Kor answered yes and started a firestorm.

 

[Jambalaya]

... to add ...

IMO forgetting is not so much the goal.
The goal is no longer being bothered/haunted/affected by something bad someone did to you.

Even if you achieve that goal you'll still remember what he/she did.
The memory just loses its power to knock you off your bicycle.

The most extraordinary example is a holocaust camp survivor who lost all her family yet, famously, forgave Dr. Mengele.
IIRC she was one half of the many twins whom the doctor experimented on.

There's a documentary film about her. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489707/reviews
Clearly she has not 'forgotten'.

SNIP:

Eva Mozes Kor was one of thousands of Jews turned into "human guinea pigs" by Josef Mengele, the head Nazi doctor at the Auschwitz concentration camps during World War II. While Kor's other family members did not survive their horrific treatment, Kor somehow managed to live. After the war and liberation of the camp, Kor married and started a family in America, but still lived with the pain of the past. In the 1980s, Kor met the only surviving Nazi doctor of the era, Hans Munch, and persuaded him to come back to Auschwitz with her to declare that the Holocaust occurred. During the ceremony, Kor forgave Munch and a reporter asked her whether or not she could also forgive Mengele. Kor answered yes and started a firestorm.

That's what I mean by forgetting in this instance - exactly so. I don't mean literally to have no memory of it. Nor to forget the lessons learned. And I have learned SO many lessons from it. One is that you can't tell about people, even if you've known them for fifty years, they can still turn out to be completely different from the person you thought they were. And that yes, it is always the quiet ones. (joke)

 

[Jambalaya]

In addition to the bolded, I'd also add getting used to the loss of the person in your life, if it was someone you used to love and trust and had done so for many decades.

 

[Tekate]

I was hurt beyond belief by a person I loved so much and protected and did my best to make their life better, 20 years of not speaking and all of a sudden I'm invited to visit.... at that point I realized that this pain and lack of forgiveness gave this person control over me, that for 20 years I had been living in anger and pain, someone said above that you don't have to forgive, for me that was true, but I let go and no longer allowed that person into my head and moved to a new place... it is sort of hard to convey but I set it free, that pain and hurt and anger, then I felt nothing for the person... it was sort of sad, because it's sometimes easier to live angry than to live in peace. Hope I made a bit of sense.

peace.

 

[Jambalaya]

I'm really interested to hear of your experience, Tekate, and also very sad to hear that someone you loved hurt you so much. So the person got in touch with you again after 20 years, wanting to see you? Wow. Did you go?

 

[Tekate]

Thank you so much Jambalaya. Yes I went, but he only contacted me because he didn't want to lose face with friends. I had hopes that we could be close, but he was just a very angry person. It was just too much time between us. It was very painful. He was my brother. I kept going back to an AA saying that goes... "let go, let God" but since I am spiritual I just "let go and let peace".. as I let peace into my life and let go of the situation and so at the time they invited me to visit, I'd moved past the anger and fight.

And much peace to you..

 

[momhappy]

[quote="momhappy|1453129958|3977491"]I'm curious why you might feel the need to forget? We all have unpleasant/negative experiences in life and dealing with them (even if that means remembering them from time to time) is all part of learning and growing. As far as forgiveness is concerned, it can mean whatever you want it to. For me, it simply means finding some sort of comfort level with it. It means that while it may come to mind sometimes, I am still moving forward with my life. It might mean cutting ties or it might not - it really depends on the circumstances.

I mean forget about this person. She's on my mind much more than I'd like and thinking of her makes me feel Like with an ex-boyfriend, all you want to do is forget about them.

Not everyone has the kind of negative experiences that she dished out. I only know one person who's experienced the betrayal that I described - that other betrayee. Her betrayals were pretty epic, and I have never experienced anything else like it. I don't think it comes under the heading of "oh, negative experiences happen in life" etc etc. Most people don't have friends who do this kind of thing. I've only had one.

I knew her for fifty years. Perhaps I just need more time. As you and LLJsmom have said, you move forward and get a comfort level, but perhaps I am expecting too much too soon. I just hate when she's on my mind and I would like to get past that.[/quote]

You're right - everyone has different experiences and not all negative experiences are created equal.
I don't feel comfortable sharing personal experiences, so I'll just leave it at that...
I will say that some things you never forget - and some things you might never understand. The important thing is that you can experience them (on some level) and acknowledge that you are moving forward with your life. It's normal to remember and it's normal to feel bad, but those things don't have to have any other power over your life than what they are (which is unpleasant memories).

 

[sarahb]

My experience is that its very difficult to "just not think about it" and assume you will forgive. You think about it until you're done thinking about it. That might take some time. If you find you are truly perseverating on it, its worth getting help, as it sounds like you have. It may sound counterintuitive, but I've found for me that trying not to think about something backfires, and that truly thinking about, exploring it, trying to see it (whatever it is) from different perspectives, means that it starts to lose its power over me and after a while its reduced to something less meaningful. Yes, horrible things happen. Its how you move on from them that matters.

Could not agree more!!

 

[dk168]

I have a long memory, and find it difficult to forgive at times.

However, I am very good at compartmentalising any negative thoughts and unpleasant memories, rather than to dwell on them, allowing me to move on.

I have been dealt with some very bad hands in life. However, I am not going to let bitterness eat me up and ruin my future happiness.

Life is too short to be bitter.

DK

 

[Jambalaya]

Thank you so much Jambalaya. Yes I went, but he only contacted me because he didn't want to lose face with friends. I had hopes that we could be close, but he was just a very angry person. It was just too much time between us. It was very painful. He was my brother. I kept going back to an AA saying that goes... "let go, let God" but since I am spiritual I just "let go and let peace".. as I let peace into my life and let go of the situation and so at the time they invited me to visit, I'd moved past the anger and fight.

And much peace to you..

I'm glad for you, Tekate. That all sounds very freeing.

 

[Jambalaya]

[quote="momhappy|1453129958|3977491"
You're right - everyone has different experiences and not all negative experiences are created equal.
I don't feel comfortable sharing personal experiences, so I'll just leave it at that...
I will say that some things you never forget - and some things you might never understand. The important thing is that you can experience them (on some level) and acknowledge that you are moving forward with your life. It's normal to remember and it's normal to feel bad, but those things don't have to have any other power over your life than what they are (which is unpleasant memories).

Wise words all, Momhappy, especially the bolded. Thank you.

 

[Jambalaya]

I have a long memory, and find it difficult to forgive at times.

However, I am very good at compartmentalising any negative thoughts and unpleasant memories, rather than to dwell on them, allowing me to move on.

I have been dealt with some very bad hands in life. However, I am not going to let bitterness eat me up and ruin my future happiness.

Life is too short to be bitter.

DK

Good for you, DK!

The thing is, I'm not bitter so much as sad. I miss her, despite everything, after fifty years.

I wish I could be better at the compartmentalizing!

 

[pregcurious]

Not for me. Forgiveness is the way for both people to heal. Sometimes it means one can continue with the relationship in a good way., if the person at fault takes responsibility.

If the person never takes full responsibility, I forgive on my own timeline, for my own mental health. In that case, I forgive, but don't bother pouring more energy into that relationship. This is for a serious offense, done on purpose/with intent.