Is AGS Ideal a boring cut fire-wise?

[LaraOnline]

I have been driving my vendor mad making my selection for my anniversary stone upgrade through Jogia.

I have settled on an F-colour Ideal, but also was interested in an E GIA excellent cut. The E was not nearly as light-reflective, the ASET was riddled with green and according to 'the stats' did not perform as well in either Brightness, Fire or Scintillation...

However, this E was a very lively stone fire-wise, I guess because there wasn't so much bright light white cancelling out all those colourful flashes!

Q: Is 'Ideal' actually boring because the fire can't cut through?

I eventually settled on an Ideal, because it seemed that brighter was better... but what do you think?

 

[stone-cold11]

What is the stats of the GIA?

 

[LaraOnline]

Well it measures 1.8 on Holloway's cut adviser tool, and I am very confident in Jogia's choice - all his stones are gorgeous - but each stone can be different, no?

I compared my first stone, an F 1.1 Ideal H&A, with the E (GIA Excellent). At first I was disappointed in the E, because there was so much light leakage, but then once I started moving the stone, I became impressed. It seemed so firey! Although according to the stats, 'Fire' (s measured)was marginally less, or equal to, the Ideal.

I guessed it was because there is not the bright white background, so you can see the flashes better. In the notes associated with PS, it pretty much says the same thing.

I ended up settling with a 1.6 F Ideal - it's hard to shake the feeling that Ideal is better, and I know from experience that Ideal certainly is a pretty diamond...but perhaps the personality is ... blander?

 

[stone-cold11]

Ya, probably different personality which is why I would like the see the numbers, not just the HCA score.

 

[Ellen]

I think your new stone will have a nice mix of both brilliance and fire, and probably do better over the broad spectrum of lighting situations.

Congrats!!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/4/2009 11:09:49 AM
Author: LaraOnline
Well it measures 1.8 on Holloway's cut adviser tool, and I am very confident in Jogia's choice - all his stones are gorgeous - but each stone can be different, no?

I compared my first stone, an F 1.1 Ideal H&A, with the E (GIA Excellent). At first I was disappointed in the E, because there was so much light leakage, but then once I started moving the stone, I became impressed. It seemed so firey! Although according to the stats, 'Fire' (s measured)was marginally less, or equal to, the Ideal.

I guessed it was because there is not the bright white background, so you can see the flashes better. In the notes associated with PS, it pretty much says the same thing.

I ended up settling with a 1.6 F Ideal - it's hard to shake the feeling that Ideal is better, and I know from experience that Ideal certainly is a pretty diamond...but perhaps the personality is ... blander?

Hey Lara!

Both are very well cut diamonds, so then it comes down to your eyes, also out of interest a steeper crown angle and smaller table can sometimes aid the production of fire. When do we get to see pics of your new beauty? Also although numbers are important it has to come down to your eyes in the end.

Do you have the details on your new diamond, you know the proportions we worked with before when you were looking previously? I would love to see what your new rock is made of! Also as El says your new stone is probably well balanced and should show a great display of all the performance components!

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 8/4/2009 12:23:49 PM
Author: Lorelei

Hey Lara!


Both are very well cut diamonds, so then it comes down to your eyes, also out of interest a steeper crown angle and smaller table can sometimes aid the production of fire. When do we get to see pics of your new beauty? Also although numbers are important it has to come down to your eyes in the end.


Do you have the details on your new diamond, you know the proportions we worked with before when you were looking previously? I would love to see what your new rock is made of! Also as El says your new stone is probably well balanced and should show a great display of all the performance components!

Hello there Lorelei and Stone Cold!

sorry for abandoning this thread mid-conversation! I went away for a few days.
this is really interesting for a newbie like me, so I thought I would post the stats of all three diamonds.

I actually saw the E in person, but the larger F I'm afraid I just switched it up over the phone.

I trust Jogia implicitly, but the only teensy drawback to his 'boutique' - style service is that usually there is only one or two of each weight to choose from at any one time.

Okay my current stone is AGS0 1.11 F SI1
Crown angle 34.1
Pavilion angle 41
TAble size 55.7%
Total depth 60.6%
This has been an incredibly bright stone that shows light in all situations.

then I went and compared it to the E, a GIA excellent graded cut.
Side by side, the F was much brighter, but then start moving the stone around, and it is the darker E that catches the eye!
1.53 E SI2
Crown angle 34.7
Pavilion angle 41.3
Table size 57.6%
Total depth 61.8%

I decided to go for the E any way, based on its fire... but JOgia held the resetting back because they knew they were getting in some other stones of a weight and colour that I would probably like to look at / consider! True to form, I did...

Unfortunately though I had to do it over the phone, as I live in the country.
I feel like I kind of 'got conservative' and just went for the ideal cut (scared of the dark)
so I haven't actually seen this stone in person, much less compared it by eye to any other...

AGS0 F SI2 1.6
Crown angle 34.4
Pavilion angle 41
Table size 57.5%
Total Depth 60.9%

Yogesh laughs when I tell him I'm trying to learn (not unkindly) but says that angles alone cannot tell me all I need to know. Of course, I don't dare ask what it is I SHOULD be looking for! Luckily he has me sorted as he definitely knows his stuff.

Looking forward to your comments!

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/4/2009 10:54:55 AM
Author:LaraOnline
I have been driving my vendor mad making my selection for my anniversary stone upgrade through Jogia.

I have settled on an F-colour Ideal, but also was interested in an E GIA excellent cut. The E was not nearly as light-reflective, the ASET was riddled with green and according to ''the stats'' did not perform as well in either Brightness, Fire or Scintillation...

However, this E was a very lively stone fire-wise, I guess because there wasn''t so much bright light white cancelling out all those colourful flashes!

Q: Is ''Ideal'' actually boring because the fire can''t cut through?

I eventually settled on an Ideal, because it seemed that brighter was better... but what do you think?

Each diamond will have its own personality, and NO, AGS0 cut diamonds are NOT boring fire wise.

Wink

Date: 8/4/2009 10:54:55 AM
Author:LaraOnline
I have been driving my vendor mad making my selection for my anniversary stone upgrade through Jogia.

I have settled on an F-colour Ideal, but also was interested in an E GIA excellent cut. The E was not nearly as light-reflective, the ASET was riddled with green and according to ''the stats'' did not perform as well in either Brightness, Fire or Scintillation...

However, this E was a very lively stone fire-wise, I guess because there wasn''t so much bright light white cancelling out all those colourful flashes!

Q: Is ''Ideal'' actually boring because the fire can''t cut through?

I eventually settled on an Ideal, because it seemed that brighter was better... but what do you think?

 

[LaraOnline]

Sorry Wink, I hope you don''t think my comment was inflammatory...
just wondering why the less ideal cut stone caught my eye so much

 

[Lorelei]

Did you bought the F Lara? It could have been the angles on the E showed a bit more fire but I am glad you didn't choose that one, the pavilion angle is rather steep.

 

[LaraOnline]

Yes, I did go for the F. The light return was much better. Ironic, though, isn't it, that the less light-reflective stone seemed more firey when moved around when compared to my (original) ideal-cut F?
Or perhaps as per the other thread, I just needed to give that original stone a good clean before comparing it with any in the store.

This second F has *slightly* less light return though than that original F, which I'm wondering will make it appear more firey (than the original F) under some conditions?

In any case am looking forward to meeting it!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/8/2009 8:50:55 AM
Author: LaraOnline
Yes, I did go for the F. The light return was much better. Ironic, though, isn't it, that the less light-reflective stone seemed more firey when moved around when compared to my (original) ideal-cut F?
This second F has *slightly* less light return though than that original F, which I'm wondering will make it appear more firey (than the original F) under some conditions?

I am looking forward to meeting it!

It is but chances are the E could have ' died' in every day lighting conditions and not been the best all rounder. I can't wait for you to get the new rock!

 

[LaraOnline]

Yeah, like I said, I was scared of the dark! Jogia made it clear to me from the outset that the E would not have the brightness of my original F. Being a newbie, I''m afraid I didn''t really know what he meant until I saw it in person!

The original stone was incredibly bright though.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/8/2009 8:55:23 AM
Author: LaraOnline
Yeah, like I said, I was scared of the dark! Jogia made it clear to me from the outset that the E would not have the brightness of my original F. Being a newbie, I''m afraid I didn''t really know what he meant until I saw it in person!

The original stone was incredibly bright though.

You did good!!!

 

[LaraOnline]

Isn''t it incredible that 0.3% of an angle could make such a difference! I''m getting the idea that diamond merchants might develop into finicky, detail-obsessed people haha

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/8/2009 9:12:14 AM
Author: LaraOnline
Isn't it incredible that 0.3% of an angle could make such a difference! I'm getting the idea that diamond merchants might develop into finicky, detail-obsessed people haha

Pavilion angles are crucial and the crown angle is not a good fit for this pavilion anyway but even if it was shallow enough to compensate the pavilion angle is still too steep IMO. Top cut diamonds don't usually have such steep pavilion angles.

 

[LaraOnline]

Oh Lorelei! so tell me what you think about the 1.6 F then!
I have to point out at this stage that Jogia thinks I''m mad for giving up the 1.1 in the first place...

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/8/2009 9:29:51 AM
Author: LaraOnline
Oh Lorelei! so tell me what you think about the 1.6 F then!
I have to point out at this stage that Jogia thinks I'm mad for giving up the 1.1 in the first place...

The 1.6 looks good, I would prefer the crown angle to be a little shallower ( around 34 deg) but it should be a great looking diamond! Do you have the star and lower girdle facet percentages from the report for this diamond?

 

[LaraOnline]

On the report (where they print out all their details about each stone) it has an entry:

Star / Upper 47.9 : 52.1%
lower facets can't find anything specifically about...

the original F was 34.1 for crown angle... so could you tell me how the two stones are likely to compare? *no pressure* hah!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/8/2009 9:40:07 AM
Author: LaraOnline
On the report (where they print out all their details about each stone) it has an entry:

Star / Upper 47.9 : 52.1%
lower facets can't find anything specifically about...

the original F was 34.1 for crown angle... so could you tell me how the two stones are likely to compare? *no pressure* hah!

No! Because whatever I tell you is speculation and I want you to enjoy what you see and draw your own conclusions!

The LGF's should be on the report, the measurement will be in the 70 %'s or 80% usually for lower girdle facets.

 

[LaraOnline]

*whispers* so what are your conclusions...?

Ah well, I''ll see it soon enough...

 

[LaraOnline]

How annoying, I can't find those lower girdle percentages... oh well, when I get all the paperwork I'll have them to hand.

Thank you very much for your comments Lorelei, I appreciate your time.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/8/2009 9:46:14 AM
Author: LaraOnline

*whispers* so what are your conclusions...?

Ah well, I'll see it soon enough...

Nope!

Look at this link, on the lower part of the diamond diagram on the lower girdle facet you can see a figure that says 76, that is the LGF and where you find that measurement

http://www.jamesallen.com/certs/T10-026CER.JPG

 

[strmrdr]

This is a complicated subject that has many variables a big one being the lower girdles.

To keep it simple:
You can have 2 diamonds that have awesome fire but they show it in different lighting.
Diamond A may tend to show brightness more often in different lighting.
Diamond B may tend to show fire more often in different lighting.

The fire potential is the same but they show it at different times.
To make it more complicated diamond A could have more fire than diamond B in lighting that makes it show fire.

The 41/34 combo with lower girdles that prevent leakage is known to tend towards showing brightness, it has awesome fire it just doesn''t show it as often as some other combos.
Some people love it, I do.
Some people will never notice the difference.

It is not a quality issue but a personality one and might make someone say this diamond talks to me more.

 

[LaraOnline]

Oh thanks Strm for that comment, I guess that's the sort of info I needed to understand for this topic of fire vs brilliance! Certainly, it seems a very apt description for the first 1.11 F.

ETA: so would this combo (34/41)be seen as closer to the 'ideal' in 'ideal' cut?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/8/2009 11:36:27 AM
Author: LaraOnline
Oh thanks Strm for that comment, I guess that''s the sort of info I needed to understand for this topic of fire vs brilliance! Certainly, it seems a very apt description for the first 1.11 F.


ETA: so would this combo (34/41)be seen as closer to the ''ideal'' in ''ideal'' cut?

yes 34/41 well cut is an ideal cut.
There is no "The Ideal" cut.
Ideal cut is a range of personalities that share a common a attribute of looking good across many different lighting conditions.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/8/2009 4:32:33 AM
Author: LaraOnline
Sorry Wink, I hope you don''t think my comment was inflammatory...
just wondering why the less ideal cut stone caught my eye so much

Absolutley not, I did not mean to sound curt, or for that matter to quote your question twice in my response. I have seen diamonds that should not have looked stunning that did, and those that should have that did not (but only two or three out of thousands of diamonds that I have looked at in my career, it is exceedingly rare to see an Ideal diamond that does not sing, and I have not seen any of these since AGS changed the parameters to include the light performance metric. Let me also add that this only applies to Ideal diamonds that were graded Ideal by AGS) This is why I believe so strongly that you should always see a diamond before making the final decision.

I also have a few client who prefer the look of a less well cut diamond.

There are so many reasons why the other stones may have caught your eye so much. It could have been the lighting. It could have been the cleanliness of the diamonds at the time each was viewed. Even the best diamond will not show well if it is dirty and the ones it is comparred to are spotless.

I actually thought your question was quite valid and I apologize that your response from me was not more thurough and thoughtful. I intended only to say that each diamond has its own personality and that much of that is determined through the eye of the viewer but that also there is nothing about an AGS 0 that will prevent fire, indeed one of the things I love about a well cut AGS 0 cut grade is that it nearly always enhances fire.

Wink

 

[John P]

Date: 8/8/2009 10:16:55 AM
Author: strmrdr

This is a complicated subject that has many variables a big one being the lower girdles.

To keep it simple:
You can have 2 diamonds that have awesome fire but they show it in different lighting.
Diamond A may tend to show brightness more often in different lighting.
Diamond B may tend to show fire more often in different lighting.

The fire potential is the same but they show it at different times...

Clear, concise summary.

It is not a quality issue but a personality one and might make someone say this diamond talks to me more.

Right. It's about personal taste.
Zoom out to a larger picture and some people prefer step cuts over brilliants - others feel opposite.
Zoom out to an even larger picture and some people prefer colored stones over diamonds - others feel opposite.
Zoom out and away from gemstones and some people prefer redheads... ok, you get the idea