Interesting speech at Antwerp''s diamond conference 2007

[Paul-Antwerp]

Yesterday and before, the entire diamond industry gathered in Antwerp for the yearly Antwerp Diamond Conference.

Probably the most interesting speech was delivered by the President of Alrosa. For those interested, you can find the entire speech here: link

Enjoy,

 

[strmrdr]

Sounds like a whole lot of we cant compete so you cant either.
As far as shifting centers, welcome too the World market.
The electronics industry has shifted several times.
US to Japan to Taiwan and is now slowly shifting to China.

Rough shortage, there is more rough being mined now than ever before but the production is shifting out of Africa to Canada.
Frankly this is a false statement: "During the last decade no new large diamond deposits have been
discovered"
Some of the worlds largest deposits have been discovered in Canada and continue too be discovered and developed.
If the Russian approach failed then they should look to Canada too see how too do it.

This part is total bull in my book:
"The overall quality of cut diamonds, produced by new African factories may not
be up to the industry standards, due to the lack of cutting traditions and schools."
If they follow the India model of cutting factory development with the high tech cutting operations they can produce goods as good as anywhere on Earth.
Frankly saying they cant is racist and has been a huge problem for Africa for a long time.
What it boils down to is an industry that wants too keep stealing Africa''s natural resources which by rights belong that the African people that live there.

Want too set up an Africa partnership Paul?
They should hire you and come in at the high end of the market instead of allowing themselves to be held down, get the best rough that already belongs to them and cut it into the best stones and go with a worldwide high end brand.
Keeping the exploiters hands out of the cookie jar will be the hard part.

 

[strmrdr]

This ticks me off the more I read this speech..
"We believe the ideal structure would be direct sales of rough diamonds to
established globally jewelry brands."
Lets go back too the old cartel days and try and controll the market.
That will not work.
What is funny is he talks of eliminating speculation in the same speech he complains about the lack of investment funds!!
Talk about cutting off your nose too spite your face!!!

 

[strmrdr]

"You do know the answer – their exchange rates against the US dollar
keep rising. I think time is coming to look out for another currency, which is less
dependant to global economic and political trends."

All fiat currencies are subject to global and political trends, every last one of them.
Someone does not understand the world money market and how it is manipulated.
Frankly the fall of the US dollar is an overall good thing for the United States meaning more jobs and less outsourcing of goods and services for the American people.
It has been too strong for too long which has allowed the eroding of our manufacturing base. No country can survive with a service economy because no real wealth is generated. Paper wealth is not real wealth and never will be.

 

[strmrdr]

"Second, I would like to appeal to our African friends: please think twice
and learn from Russian experience when make the decisions regarding
beneficiation."

Our and our partners business model is built on exploiting your national resources please dont stay down in the dirt so we can continue to get rich!

blah that entire speech makes me sick!!!

 

[denverappraiser]

That’s a pretty bullish statement for diamond dealers who are carrying inventory but it sounds like baloney to me as well for reasons that Storm has outlined nicely. Africa and Russia have some similarities in both being difficult places to do business but there are some critical differences. The cutting and manufacturing industry is serving India pretty well and distribution is getting more and more global all the time. I think it’s only a matter of time before ‘Mine to Finger’ marketing via the Internet really takes off and African (and Canadian) based companies are well positioned to run with this.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/17/2007 12:41:50 PM
Author: strmrdr
''Second, I would like to appeal to our African friends: please think twice
and learn from Russian experience when make the decisions regarding
beneficiation.''

Our and our partners business model is built on exploiting your natural resources please stay down in the dirt so we can continue to get rich!

blah that entire speech makes me sick!!!

whoops wish I had edit.. corrections above... was thinking too many steps ahead of fingers.. lol

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/17/2007 1:22:57 PM
Author: denverappraiser
That’s a pretty bullish statement for diamond dealers who are carrying inventory but it sounds like baloney to me as well for reasons that Storm has outlined nicely. Africa and Russia have some similarities in both being difficult places to do business but there are some critical differences. The cutting and manufacturing industry is serving India pretty well and distribution is getting more and more global all the time. I think it’s only a matter of time before ‘Mine to Finger’ marketing via the Internet really takes off and African (and Canadian) based companies are well positioned to run with this.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

wow glad im not the only one that feels that way!

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 10/17/2007 1:22:57 PM
Author: denverappraiser
That’s a pretty bullish statement for diamond dealers who are carrying inventory but it sounds like baloney to me as well for reasons that Storm has outlined nicely. Africa and Russia have some similarities in both being difficult places to do business but there are some critical differences. The cutting and manufacturing industry is serving India pretty well and distribution is getting more and more global all the time. I think it’s only a matter of time before ‘Mine to Finger’ marketing via the Internet really takes off and African (and Canadian) based companies are well positioned to run with this.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

It will be interesting to see how the Canadian dynamic plays out. Labor costs in Africa make this practical - profitable even. Canada's labor force won't be had as cheaply as India or, more significantly, China. The Canada-China relationship could be phase II of the Oz-India relationship that currently exists. Or if that dollar keeps going down maybe Americans will be polishing Canadian rough.

I think I should be more surprised by Alrosa's position. It's not like the writing hasn't been on the wall (bold, underlined & MARTYSIZED)...
August, 2006 story that projected this.

But I'm not surprised.
Does that mean I'm finally starting to get jaded, Strm?

What's interesting is the obvious division between DeBeers and Alrosa... Check the transcript of Gareth Penny's speech from the same Antwerp conference. The DTC is making lemonade (on the surface anyway).

 

[JohnQuixote]

Excerpts from Rapaport: DeBeers calls for diamond trade to back African polishing industry (original article - sign up to see it in its entirety).


...Africa''s natural resources have enriched traders across the world and Penny called on the gemstone business in Antwerp, Tel Aviv and New York to fund and help train the infant industry, mostly based in South Africa and Botswana - which owns 15 percent of De Beers...

...Antwerp, which once sparkled as the focus of the diamond cutting trade, has ceded its place to India''s Mumbai which now cuts most of the world''s diamonds, many of them less costly small stones...

...Antwerp World Diamond Centre''s chief executive Freddy Hanard said Africa''s desire to take more of the business did not pose a threat.[/i] >>

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/17/2007 3:22:36 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

But I''m not surprised.
Does that mean I''m finally starting to get jaded, Strm?

What''s interesting is the obvious division between DeBeers and Alrosa... Check the transcript of Gareth Penny''s speech from the same Antwerp conference. The DTC is making lemonade (on the surface anyway).

Jaded maybe? moving out of your little corner of the diamond market and looking at the rest.. yep.

DeBeers really doesn''t have any choice, they are backed into the corner both by consumers and the producing countries.
The world public wont tolerate the tactics of the past.
This is weird where I''m actually more impressed by something DeBeers is saying than another group in the industry.
I think they will have too back it up with action they don''t really have any choice.
Hmm how much input DeBeers had on the President of Alrosa''s speech would be interesting. Are they using the Russians as the heavy hitters while playing the nice guys? (had to throw a conspiracy in there!)

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 10/17/2007 5:40:40 PM
Author: strmrdr

Jaded maybe? moving out of your little corner of the diamond market and looking at the rest.. yep.

DeBeers really doesn't have any choice, they are backed into the corner both by consumers and the producing countries.
The world public wont tolerate the tactics of the past.
This is weird where I'm actually more impressed by something DeBeers is saying than another group in the industry.
I think they will have too back it up with action they don't really have any choice.
Hmm how much input DeBeers had on the President of Alrosa's speech would be interesting. Are they using the Russians as the heavy hitters while playing the nice guys? (had to throw a conspiracy in there!)

A lot of us see with global eyes Strm. We just prefer to think everyone lives in this century. Your black belt in jaded (see highlighted) is why I asked.

In this day & age the movement towards beneficiation is inescapable, as it should be. It has been a theme at our trade gatherings for years - Garry, Paul, Wink and I have written about the changing climate in reviews since 2005. Even in our "family" pipeline; from our Dreams of Africa charity partner to our cutting partner in Antwerp, to Brian's family in Johannesburg...these developments have been visited and revisited. The initiatives are not new, we've been moving towards them for years. It seems odd that anyone would take a different position. I'm not jaded enough to buy the Alrosa-DTC conspiracy. Maybe it's more like a club. A club for boys. Who are good. And old.

 

[diagem]

Date: 10/17/2007 12:06:47 PM
Author: strmrdr
Sounds like a whole lot of we cant compete so you cant either.
As far as shifting centers, welcome too the World market.
The electronics industry has shifted several times.
US to Japan to Taiwan and is now slowly shifting to China.

Rough shortage, there is more rough being mined now than ever before but the production is shifting out of Africa to Canada.
Frankly this is a false statement: ''During the last decade no new large diamond deposits have been
discovered''
Some of the worlds largest deposits have been discovered in Canada and continue too be discovered and developed.
If the Russian approach failed then they should look to Canada too see how too do it.

You are correct Storm..., there is more rough being mined these days..., but..., demand is rising fast as the growth is the East is surprisingly strong!!!
Canada is still to young in this game..., only time will tell if "they should look to Canada........"
Also..., there quite a few mines becoming exhausted on their Diamond resources..., take for example some of the Australian mines...

This part is total bull in my book:
''The overall quality of cut diamonds, produced by new African factories may not
be up to the industry standards, due to the lack of cutting traditions and schools.''
If they follow the India model of cutting factory development with the high tech cutting operations they can produce goods as good as anywhere on Earth.
Storm..., please dont forget it took the Indians a few decades to reach the point where they are... (and most of them are still lacking behind...), I must agree with the above statement..., it is not only depending on "high tech" operations only..., mostly it depends on "trial and error" and loads of practice!!!..., and it will take time!!!
Frankly saying they cant is racist and has been a huge problem for Africa for a long time.
What it boils down to is an industry that wants too keep stealing Africa''s natural resources which by rights belong that the African people that live there.

Want too set up an Africa partnership Paul?
They should hire you and come in at the high end of the market instead of allowing themselves to be held down, get the best rough that already belongs to them and cut it into the best stones and go with a worldwide high end brand.
Keeping the exploiters hands out of the cookie jar will be the hard part.

 

[diagem]

Date: 10/17/2007 12:18:21 PM
Author: strmrdr
This ticks me off the more I read this speech..
''We believe the ideal structure would be direct sales of rough diamonds to
established globally jewelry brands.''
Lets go back too the old cartel days and try and controll the market.
That will not work.
What is funny is he talks of eliminating speculation in the same speech he complains about the lack of investment funds!!
Talk about cutting off your nose too spite your face!!!

The old cartel days were not about vertical integration...

He wishes that the "established global jewelry brands" could or would have the funds to pick up the direct sales of rough Diamonds...

Its simply impossible!!!

 

[diagem]

Date: 10/17/2007 3:22:36 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 10/17/2007 1:22:57 PM
Author: denverappraiser
That’s a pretty bullish statement for diamond dealers who are carrying inventory but it sounds like baloney to me as well for reasons that Storm has outlined nicely. Africa and Russia have some similarities in both being difficult places to do business but there are some critical differences. The cutting and manufacturing industry is serving India pretty well and distribution is getting more and more global all the time. I think it’s only a matter of time before ‘Mine to Finger’ marketing via the Internet really takes off and African (and Canadian) based companies are well positioned to run with this.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

It will be interesting to see how the Canadian dynamic plays out. Labor costs in Africa make this practical - profitable even. Canada''s labor force won''t be had as cheaply as India or, more significantly, China. The Canada-China relationship could be phase II of the Oz-India relationship that currently exists. Or if that dollar keeps going down maybe Americans will be polishing Canadian rough.

I think I should be more surprised by Alrosa''s position. It''s not like the writing hasn''t been on the wall (bold, underlined & MARTYSIZED)...
August, 2006 story that projected this.

But I''m not surprised.
Does that mean I''m finally starting to get jaded, Strm?

What''s interesting is the obvious division between DeBeers and Alrosa... Check the transcript of Gareth Penny''s speech from the same Antwerp conference. The DTC is making lemonade (on the surface anyway).

That will be the day

 

[diagem]

Date: 10/17/2007 3:26:25 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
Excerpts from Rapaport: DeBeers calls for diamond trade to back African polishing industry (original article - sign up to see it in its entirety).

<< ...Gareth Penny called upon diamond traders in Europe, the United States, and Israel to back Africa''s efforts to cut and polish its own gemstones. The head of the South African miner - which controls 40 percent of the world''s diamond trade - said it was not altruism to stabilize the diamond business by creating jobs in African democracies... ''We don''t embrace this out of some misguided enthusiasm or altruism, we embrace it because it makes good business sense and because it''s the right thing to do,'' he said...

...Africa''s natural resources have enriched traders across the world and Penny called on the gemstone business in Antwerp, Tel Aviv and New York to fund and help train the infant industry, mostly based in South Africa and Botswana - which owns 15 percent of De Beers...

I wonder if Penny (DeBeers) forgot who was enriched the most...., reminder to the Oppenheimer family!!!

...Antwerp, which once sparkled as the focus of the diamond cutting trade, has ceded its place to India''s Mumbai which now cuts most of the world''s diamonds, many of them less costly small stones...

...Antwerp World Diamond Centre''s chief executive Freddy Hanard said Africa''s desire to take more of the business did not pose a threat. >>

It will only be possible when African countries will become and prove themselves more stable!!!
Today..., (outside of Johannesburg)..., most big (players like Leviev, Steinmetz and DeBeers etc..., etc...) manufacturers are situated close to political regimes..., and so they are less vulnerable than others...

 

[diagem]

Date: 10/18/2007 4:54:02 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 10/17/2007 12:06:47 PM
Author: strmrdr
Sounds like a whole lot of we cant compete so you cant either.
As far as shifting centers, welcome too the World market.
The electronics industry has shifted several times.
US to Japan to Taiwan and is now slowly shifting to China.

Rough shortage, there is more rough being mined now than ever before but the production is shifting out of Africa to Canada.
Frankly this is a false statement: 'During the last decade no new large diamond deposits have been
discovered'
Some of the worlds largest deposits have been discovered in Canada and continue too be discovered and developed.
If the Russian approach failed then they should look to Canada too see how too do it.

You are correct Storm..., there is more rough being mined these days..., but..., demand is rising fast as the growth is the East is surprisingly strong!!!
Canada is still to young in this game..., only time will tell if 'they should look to Canada........'
Also..., there quite a few mines becoming exhausted on their Diamond resources..., take for example some of the Australian mines...

This part is total bull in my book:
'The overall quality of cut diamonds, produced by new African factories may not
be up to the industry standards, due to the lack of cutting traditions and schools.'
If they follow the India model of cutting factory development with the high tech cutting operations they can produce goods as good as anywhere on Earth.
Storm..., please dont forget it took the Indians a few decades to reach the point where they are... (and most of them are still lacking behind...) today!!!, I must agree with the above statement..., it is not only depending on 'high tech' operations only..., mostly it depends on 'trial and error' and loads of practice!!!..., and it will take time!!!
Frankly saying they cant is racist and has been a huge problem for Africa for a long time.
What it boils down to is an industry that wants too keep stealing Africa's natural resources which by rights belong that the African people that live there.

Want too set up an Africa partnership Paul?
They should hire you and come in at the high end of the market instead of allowing themselves to be held down, get the best rough that already belongs to them and cut it into the best stones and go with a worldwide high end brand.
Keeping the exploiters hands out of the cookie jar will be the hard part.

Red = Edited!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/18/2007 6:51:49 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 10/18/2007 4:54:02 AM
Author: DiaGem

If they follow the India model of cutting factory development with the high tech cutting operations they can produce goods as good as anywhere on Earth.
Storm..., please dont forget it took the Indians a few decades to reach the point where they are... (and most of them are still lacking behind...) today!!!, I must agree with the above statement..., it is not only depending on ''high tech'' operations only..., mostly it depends on ''trial and error'' and loads of practice!!!..., and it will take time!!!

Red = Edited!

Sorry but I call BS they can leap frog over the older companies by going with modern production methods.
In the same way they can skip copper phone service and go right to cell.
Sure it will take practice but some cuttable off color rough can be diverted from the crusher and cut instead of going to industrial uses too practice on at low cost.
They don''t have the limitations that someone further from the source would.
Its a matter of hiring the right people too set it up.
If I was going to do it the first thing id be doing is talking too Brian and Paul and setting up an advisory group of top professionals that understand modern production of super-ideals including the MSU group on the cutting end and large Internet sellers on the sales end.
Doing the training while the factories are being build will allow them too hit the ground running in 3 to 5 years.

 

[CaptAubrey]

Date: 10/18/2007 11:46:56 AM
Author: strmrdr
Sorry but I call BS they can leap frog over the older companies by going with modern production methods.

In the same way they can skip copper phone service and go right to cell.

It''s not that simple, and it''s not just a matter of cutting a piece of rough to ideal proportions. It''s being able to turn out high-quality cuts consistently and profitably.

Part of the problem is that a great deal of the technology being used in the top Indian factories nowadays is proprietary, and they''re not about to share it.

On another point, the statement about "no new deposits in the last decade" is correct. The Diavik and Ekati deposits were discovered in 1991. There are some major projects currently being developed in Russia, but they''ve been known for decades. In the last ten years, nothing major has been discovered. And, as DiaGem mentioned, the real point here is that demand >> supply over the next couple of decades, and the known deposits will not be enough to meet it.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/18/2007 3:54:32 PM
Author: CaptAubrey

Date: 10/18/2007 11:46:56 AM
Author: strmrdr
Sorry but I call BS they can leap frog over the older companies by going with modern production methods.

In the same way they can skip copper phone service and go right to cell.

It''s not that simple, and it''s not just a matter of cutting a piece of rough to ideal proportions. It''s being able to turn out high-quality cuts consistently and profitably.

Part of the problem is that a great deal of the technology being used in the top Indian factories nowadays is proprietary, and they''re not about to share it.

On another point, the statement about ''no new deposits in the last decade'' is correct. The Diavik and Ekati deposits were discovered in 1991. There are some major projects currently being developed in Russia, but they''ve been known for decades. In the last ten years, nothing major has been discovered. And, as DiaGem mentioned, the real point here is that demand >> supply over the next couple of decades, and the known deposits will not be enough to meet it.

Jericho and snap lake have been since then.
The industry has lied about supply for so long that I don''t believe a word of it, its just another excuse to jack prices up.

 

[CaptAubrey]

Date: 10/18/2007 5:08:47 PM
Author: strmrdr
Jericho and snap lake have been since then.

The industry has lied about supply for so long that I don't believe a word of it, its just another excuse to jack prices up.

Jericho (1994) and Snap Lake (1995) are both small (Jericho is very small), certainly not in the same league as Ekati or Diavik. There have been some little deposits discovered in the last ten years, but nothing major, not like the discoveries in Canada in the early 90s or in Australia and Russia in the 80s.

It's true that in the past these kinds of statistics had to be taken with a grain of salt, but with nearly all of the mining companies now being publicly traded (even De Beers is partly owned by Anglo American, a publicly traded company), it's a lot harder to lie about what you've got. Nowadays, you're begging for a shareholder lawsuit if you don't report accurately.

 

[diagem]

Date: 10/18/2007 5:08:47 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 10/18/2007 3:54:32 PM
Author: CaptAubrey

Date: 10/18/2007 11:46:56 AM
Author: strmrdr
Sorry but I call BS they can leap frog over the older companies by going with modern production methods.

In the same way they can skip copper phone service and go right to cell.

It''s not that simple, and it''s not just a matter of cutting a piece of rough to ideal proportions. It''s being able to turn out high-quality cuts consistently and profitably.

Part of the problem is that a great deal of the technology being used in the top Indian factories nowadays is proprietary, and they''re not about to share it.

On another point, the statement about ''no new deposits in the last decade'' is correct. The Diavik and Ekati deposits were discovered in 1991. There are some major projects currently being developed in Russia, but they''ve been known for decades. In the last ten years, nothing major has been discovered. And, as DiaGem mentioned, the real point here is that demand >> supply over the next couple of decades, and the known deposits will not be enough to meet it.

Jericho and snap lake have been since then.
The industry has lied about supply for so long that I don''t believe a word of it, its just another excuse to jack prices up.

Relax storm...

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/18/2007 9:47:38 PM
Author: DiaGem
Relax storm...

That is relaxed :}
You should look up a real storm rant if you want to see me not relaxed.

Natural resource exploitation is a subject that I feel strongly about.
Frankly hearing/reading excuses why they cant deal with their own natural resources so they have too continue being exploited does piss me off.
I love diamonds and hate having too feel guilty about buying them and want too see the situation changed.
If we the consumers don''t keep the heat on nothing will be done.
When projected shortages are used to raise prices it also pisses me off that is exploitation of consumers and fraud.
There are some great people in the industry and some I consider good friends but there is a very dark side too it also.

 

[diagem]

Date: 10/19/2007 12:11:39 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 10/18/2007 9:47:38 PM
Author: DiaGem
Relax storm...

That is relaxed :}
You should look up a real storm rant if you want to see me not relaxed.

Natural resource exploitation is a subject that I feel strongly about.
Frankly hearing/reading excuses why they cant deal with their own natural resources so they have too continue being exploited does piss me off.
I love diamonds and hate having too feel guilty about buying them and want too see the situation changed.
If we the consumers don''t keep the heat on nothing will be done.
When projected shortages are used to raise prices it also pisses me off that is exploitation of consumers and fraud.
There are some great people in the industry and some I consider good friends but there is a very dark side too it also.

Fine..., If you want to pinpoint..., I am fine with it! Go ahead and shoot

I am part of this industry..., and I dont appreciate being called or identified as a "liar". (period)

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/19/2007 12:33:26 AM
Author: DiaGem
Fine..., If you want to pinpoint..., I am fine with it! Go ahead and shoot

I am part of this industry..., and I dont appreciate being called or identified as a ''liar''. (period)

I am sorry if you took it personaly, I wasnt calling you a liar.
The capt took it the way I ment it and raised an interesting point about it while agreeing that it is an issue but maybe not so much of one now days from his angle.
Im not sure I agree with him or not that it is less today but that is kewl.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

I am sorry, but I did not have the time these last days to follow up on this discussion, and it seems to have derailed somewhat.

However, I have a question for those interested in the subjects raised. considering that I wrote this article in 2004, and a tiny part of it might be outdated, I still think that it serves a purpose in this discussion. Would you mind re-reading it here?

Looking forward to your comments.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

For some reason, the article does not show the first part, which goes like this:

"Just imagine owning a diamond mine. Some unknown great-uncle of you has passed away, and you have just received notice of your inheritance: a real diamond mine.

Your first reaction will be one of sorrow of course. After all, a member of the family has died, and this touches you personally. But the idea of owning a mine full of diamonds offers a silver lining in this time of grief.

When you are trying to sleep, the image of Scrooge McDuck taking a bath in the center of his mine of polished diamonds keeps coming back to you. The next day, you promise yourself, you will be doing exactly the same thing, upon your first inspection of your new asset. "

Live long,

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/19/2007 1:57:19 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
I am sorry, but I did not have the time these last days to follow up on this discussion, and it seems to have derailed somewhat.

However, I have a question for those interested in the subjects raised. considering that I wrote this article in 2004, and a tiny part of it might be outdated, I still think that it serves a purpose in this discussion. Would you mind re-reading it here?

Looking forward to your comments.

Just read it again.
It glosses over the fact that the diamonds belong to the people of that nation in the first place and that the uncle has been exploiting the people and resources for years.
The country is well within their rights to control it as they see fit thru export tariffs or partnerships.
Just because the uncle has gotten a free ride for years does not make him entitled to the diamonds.

 

[diagem]

Date: 10/19/2007 12:45:02 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 10/19/2007 12:33:26 AM
Author: DiaGem
Fine..., If you want to pinpoint..., I am fine with it! Go ahead and shoot

I am part of this industry..., and I dont appreciate being called or identified as a ''liar''. (period)

I am sorry if you took it personaly, I wasnt calling you a liar.
The capt took it the way I ment it and raised an interesting point about it while agreeing that it is an issue but maybe not so much of one now days from his angle.
Im not sure I agree with him or not that it is less today but that is kewl.

Didnt take it personally..., but when throwing such remarks in the future..., please aim specifically...
This industry runs on value''s which no others (industries) run on..., yes you are right..., there is the shady part..., but what business does not