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Vlad

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
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9
Hey all, I thought I knew what I was doing -- well, with the exception of understanding table and depth numbers -- until I came to this site. Now I am concerned, nay panicked, that I am about to make a completely idiotic mistake.

My general requirements: 2 - 2.5 carats, VVS2 or better, Princess Ideal cut, G or better color.

Started at Costco, wanted more selection and wound up at Union Diamond and settled in on this diamond:

Princess
2.03ct
VVS2
Select Ideal cut
F color
Measurements: 6.86-6.84-5.09
Length to Width: 1.00
Depth Percentage: 74.4 %
Table Percentage: 75 %
Girdle: STK-TK
Culet: None (Pointed)
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None (Inert)


Then I checked Blue Nile and found this one:

Carat weight: 2.19
Cut: Signature Ideal
Color: F
Clarity: VVS2
Depth %: 68.9%
Table %: 68%
Symmetry: Very good
Polish: Very good
Girdle: Thin to medium
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 7.43 x 7.24 x 4.99 mm
Length/width ratio: 1.03

In an effort to determine which store might be better, I did a google search of Union Diamond vs. Blue Nile and wound up at this lovely site!
36.gif


Soooooooo.... I guess I have a few questions after reading some of the forum posts:

1. What defines a good girdle? I am not understanding which classification is ideal. I do understand that too thin a girdle creates some risk of breaking? Which of the above would constitute the better girdle and why?

2. Depth and Table %: Which of the above is better and why? I found a depth and table chart for various cuts, including princess, but most of the otherwise better diamonds I look at seem to have a great table, but just ok depth. Or, perhaps more likely, I am not reading the table incorrectly.

3. This forum educated me as to the AGS and H&S concepts, but I am unclear how I would determine them when buying sight unseen from an internet retailer. As best as I can tell, while both of the above come with a GIA report, I don''t think either indicate an AGS report. How would I get that information or derive it from the GIA report? How do I figure out whether there is any appreciable H&A?

4. I''ve heard about the ability to work with pricescope vendors to get hand selected diamonds for better quality and price. A pricescope search revealed a number of choices for diamonds within my general specs, but now I am back to needing to understand the answers for my 1st three questions before I could evaluate the quality and value of the hits. Any particular recommendations for people to work with if I decide to look outside Union and Blue Nile?

Thanks in advance for any input, guidance, direction and so forth!

Vlad
 
H&A only refers to round diamonds, but I think what you are asking about is how to determine if the cut quality is good without seeing the stone. If you look at this diamond, you''ll see that you can look at the ASET photo and the Idealscope photo. These images capture how well your stone will return light. With fancy cuts, it is very difficult to tell by numbers alone, but somebody more familiar with princess cuts can hopefully give you some insight into your depth and table question.

Have you asked Union Diamond if they can get Idealscope & ASET images for you? I know BlueNile doesn''t provide them.
 
Date: 6/16/2009 6:31:18 PM
Author: Stone-cold11

Maybe give us a budget and spec and we can give you some suggestions on the diamonds?
Click to expand...

My budget is flexible, but would probably fall somewhere between 18 and $24K for the stone, based on the stones I have looked at thus far. I think I put my general specs (cut, carat, etc) in the post above. What other information would be helpful?

Thanks so much!

Vlad
 
Date: 6/16/2009 6:04:05 PM
Author:Vlad
Hey all, I thought I knew what I was doing -- well, with the exception of understanding table and depth numbers -- until I came to this site. Now I am concerned, nay panicked, that I am about to make a completely idiotic mistake.

1. What defines a good girdle? Thin to slightly thick is considered the most desirable range. Very thin or extremely thin can be prone to chipping and a thicker girdle can hide extra weight. I am not understanding which classification is ideal. I do understand that too thin a girdle creates some risk of breaking? Which of the above would constitute the better girdle and why?

2. Depth and Table %: Which of the above is better and why? I found a depth and table chart for various cuts, including princess, but most of the otherwise better diamonds I look at seem to have a great table, but just ok depth. Or, perhaps more likely, I am not reading the table incorrectly. If you are referring to the AGA chart http://www.gemappraisers.com/oldcutgraderules.asp, try to stay in the 1A and 1B ranges. The chart can help to eliminate stones, but selection needs more information.

3. This forum educated me as to the AGS and H&S concepts, but I am unclear how I would determine them when buying sight unseen from an internet retailer. As best as I can tell, while both of the above come with a GIA report, I don't think either indicate an AGS report. How would I get that information or derive it from the GIA report? How do I figure out whether there is any appreciable H&A?

4. I've heard about the ability to work with pricescope vendors to get hand selected diamonds for better quality and price. A pricescope search revealed a number of choices for diamonds within my general specs, but now I am back to needing to understand the answers for my 1st three questions before I could evaluate the quality and value of the hits. Any particular recommendations for people to work with if I decide to look outside Union and Blue Nile? Vendors that post the images phoenixgirl and stone cold referred to include Whiteflash, Good Old Gold and High Performance Diamonds. A few other vendors can supply images on request are James Allen, Excel Diamonds and ID Jewelry.

Thanks in advance for any input, guidance, direction and so forth!

Vlad
Click to expand...
EDT: Ideal as a cut term is only used by AGS. The stones you have listed are termed that by the vendors and they have no restrictions on what they call the diamonds. Ideal is thrown around WAY too much by vendors just looking to make a sale.

VVS clarity is overkill on a princess. You will not be able to tell the difference with the naked eye between that and VS or even eye-clean SI clarities, though your wallet will definitely feel the difference. Would you be open to VS or SI1 clarity if it can be confirmed eye-clean by the vendor?
 
Clarity wise, an eye-clean SI1 will look the same as a IF/VVS grade stone. Are you sure you want to limit clarity to such a high grade?

Color wise, G/H near colorless grade is indistinguishable to most unless you are very color sensitive. Just want to see how wide is your specifications. A very well cut stone will have associated premium, so not as cheap as the above and not as many out there with those specs.
 
Date: 6/16/2009 6:40:47 PM
Author: jet2ks

VVS clarity is overkill on a princess. You will not be able to tell the difference with the naked eye between that and VS or even eye-clean SI clarities, though your wallet will definitely feel the difference. Would you be open to VS or SI1 clarity if it can be confirmed eye-clean by the vendor?
Click to expand...

I am beginning to see why I am not finding much in the VVS side for a princess cut. I would be open to VS or SI1 if I wind up with an excellent quality gem that you can see glittering from across the room
9.gif
Without a formal diamond education, I thought the best way to ensure that was by sticking with vvs or better, an F or better color, and an ideal cut.

I am open to all suggestions as to how to get the best value for a great stone. I look forward to everyone''s input!
 
Cut is the key to the sparkle! A poorly cut D, IF will look like a lump of frozen spit if not cut well and be outshined by a well cut J SI2.

Stone cold has found a great stone. Looking at HPD & GOG, I didn''t see anything in your specs that I liked better.
 
Ditto everyone...also, regarding depth and table, the issue of depth in a princess cut is a bit complicated. In round stones, depth is inversely related to spread (diameter). In princesses, it's a more complex matter. However, some of the best-cut princesses out there (AGS ideal cut) lean on the deeper side, around 74-78%. Regarding table size, a table that is equal to or less than the depth is generally preferred. Larger tables can create a glassy or lackluster appearance, and smaller tables are associated with more fire.

Like the others said, if you consider VS and eye-clean SI clarity, you can get a lot more bang for the buck without sacrificing ANY visual beauty. An eye-clean SI1 looks identical to an IF. I have a VVS2 diamond, but a VS2 would have been just fine. At the time I was buying, I had a "mind-clean" issue that prevented me from considering SI clarity. Now I would definitely consider an eye-clean SI1. Regarding color, G is a good spot, but H would open up more possibilities without really being visually different. My princess is actually an I; some people start to notice face-up color at that range, but I don't.

I'm not sure what your budget is, but here are some good options:
2.08 G/SI1
2.01 G/VS2
2.087 G/SI1

Of these, my preference would be the GOG stone, because it's cheaper than the ACA and probably a better performer than the ES.

ETA: The ACA is the same one that stone-cold posted.
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Date: 6/16/2009 6:48:52 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
This looks like a nice one, WF ACA 2.01c G VS2 for 22.4k with pricescope discount through wire-transfer, if you are interested.


http://www.whiteflash.com/aca_princess/Whiteflash-ACA-Princess-cut-diamond-617009.htm
Click to expand...

Thank you for taking time to do a search. I love being able to see the Idealscope and Sarin pictures, I guess I will need to read up on how to interpret the information...
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I always understood cut was critical to quality, but I think I now understand why I was having such a disconnect: The diamonds I posted above, as well as others I have looked at, do not mention a cut grade and I was relying on the Ideal or Select Ideal description. But that is a bad approach I take it and they probably don''t mention the AGS cut grade because they wouldn''t receive a 0?

Do I understand correctly from previous posts that for a princess cut, the table % should generally be less than the depth %?

Thanks for your continued advice!

Vlad
 
Hey jstar, I knew you'd be around for a hunt for a princess.

Question for you, or anyone else, on the GOG stone. The ASET shows a spot of leakage right in the center, which seems pretty common in princess. Is this something that really doesn't show much once mounted or is it just something you sometimes have to live with to get the better light return over the rest of the diamond? I saw that stone when searching, but don't really know how to handle that aspect.
 
Date: 6/16/2009 7:10:11 PM
Author: Vlad

Do I understand correctly from previous posts that for a princess cut, the table % should generally be less than the depth %?

Thanks for your continued advice!

Vlad
Click to expand...

Yap, generally the case.
 
Date: 6/16/2009 7:02:40 PM
Author: jstarfireb
Ditto everyone...also, regarding depth and table, the issue of depth in a princess cut is a bit complicated. In round stones, depth is inversely related to spread (diameter). In princesses, it''s a more complex matter. However, some of the best-cut princesses out there (AGS ideal cut) lean on the deeper side, around 74-78%. Regarding table size, a table that is equal to or less than the depth is generally preferred. Larger tables can create a glassy or lackluster appearance, and smaller tables are associated with more fire.
Click to expand...

Thank you, you had already addressed my table question before I finished my last post! I will have to look at the stones you suggested. Thanks!
 
Date: 6/16/2009 7:10:34 PM
Author: jet2ks
Hey jstar, I knew you''d be around for a hunt for a princess.

Question for you, or anyone else, on the GOG stone. The ASET shows a spot of leakage right in the center, which seems pretty common in princess. Is this something that really doesn''t show much once mounted or is it just something you sometimes have to live with to get the better light return over the rest of the diamond? I saw that stone when searching, but don''t really know how to handle that aspect.
Click to expand...

I think that is not really the case, as ACA and CraftedbyInfinity has quite a good center return, I think maybe Jon prefer that kind of leakage for contrast? Most of his GOG signature has a leaky center I believe.
 
Date: 6/16/2009 7:10:34 PM
Author: jet2ks
Hey jstar, I knew you''d be around for a hunt for a princess.


Question for you, or anyone else, on the GOG stone. The ASET shows a spot of leakage right in the center, which seems pretty common in princess. Is this something that really doesn''t show much once mounted or is it just something you sometimes have to live with to get the better light return over the rest of the diamond? I saw that stone when searching, but don''t really know how to handle that aspect.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I''m happy to google it or scour this site for it, but does anyone have a handy reference / tutorial to reading the idealscope and Serin scans so that I know what I am looking at?
23.gif
 
Date: 6/16/2009 7:18:33 PM
Author: Vlad

Hmmm, I'm happy to google it or scour this site for it, but does anyone have a handy reference / tutorial to reading the idealscope and Serin scans so that I know what I am looking at?
23.gif
Click to expand...


Date: 6/16/2009 6:31:18 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
A tutorial on how to interpret ASET/IS image.

http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=education-performance

Maybe give us a budget and spec and we can give you some suggestions on the diamonds?
Click to expand...

Already posted it?

Don't bother about sarin scan. No necessary to understand that which is basically scanning the entire stone, dimensions, center, facet orientation, etc...
 
Date: 6/16/2009 7:15:40 PM
Author: Stone-cold11

Date: 6/16/2009 7:10:34 PM
Author: jet2ks
Hey jstar, I knew you''d be around for a hunt for a princess.

Question for you, or anyone else, on the GOG stone. The ASET shows a spot of leakage right in the center, which seems pretty common in princess. Is this something that really doesn''t show much once mounted or is it just something you sometimes have to live with to get the better light return over the rest of the diamond? I saw that stone when searching, but don''t really know how to handle that aspect.
Click to expand...

I think that is not really the case, as ACA and CraftedbyInfinity has quite a good center return, I think maybe Jon prefer that kind of leakage for contrast? Most of his GOG signature has a leaky center I believe.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the ACA and Infinity usually do have great center return, but they are hand selected and cut to very exact specs. I''ve just seen a lot of pics of normal princess (as opposed to superideal) where it is obvious there is a lot of leakage in the center. Based on that, I''m curious about how hard it is to cut a superideal so that it has that return.
 
Date: 6/16/2009 7:05:11 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
Size difference is 0.2mm face up dimension difference between the ACA and this.
Click to expand...

Is there a simple explanation of what face up dimension means? Obviously 0.2mm seems miniscule. Can I assume the gist is that when set, this would look pretty much the same in size as the ACA because the size in carat difference would mostly lie below the face?

Thank God I didn''t make a purchase yet of either of the two at the top of the post! This is quite an education for me!
 
Date: 6/16/2009 7:29:32 PM
Author: Vlad
Date: 6/16/2009 7:05:11 PM

Author: Stone-cold11

Size difference is 0.2mm face up dimension difference between the ACA and this.
Click to expand...

Is there a simple explanation of what face up dimension means? Obviously 0.2mm seems miniscule. Can I assume the gist is that when set, this would look pretty much the same in size as the ACA because the size in carat difference would mostly lie below the face?

Thank God I didn't make a purchase yet of either of the two at the top of the post! This is quite an education for me!
Click to expand...
Face up dimension is the length and width of the stone. :P Nothing complicated... :P

Some people might be able to tell the difference if they are around diamonds enough, most should be able to tell if the stone is side by side with the 2c ACA. But alone, in the setting, I don't think so... at least not me... :P
 
Date: 6/16/2009 7:29:32 PM
Author: Vlad


Date: 6/16/2009 7:05:11 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
Size difference is 0.2mm face up dimension difference between the ACA and this.
Click to expand...

Is there a simple explanation of what face up dimension means? Obviously 0.2mm seems miniscule. Can I assume the gist is that when set, this would look pretty much the same in size as the ACA because the size in carat difference would mostly lie below the face?

Thank God I didn't make a purchase yet of either of the two at the top of the post! This is quite an education for me!
Click to expand...
Yes, you would notice no visual difference in size when set.
 
Date: 6/16/2009 7:10:34 PM
Author: jet2ks
Hey jstar, I knew you''d be around for a hunt for a princess.


Question for you, or anyone else, on the GOG stone. The ASET shows a spot of leakage right in the center, which seems pretty common in princess. Is this something that really doesn''t show much once mounted or is it just something you sometimes have to live with to get the better light return over the rest of the diamond? I saw that stone when searching, but don''t really know how to handle that aspect.
Click to expand...

Having read up on the ASET and Ideal Scope evaluations (thanks everyone for the pointers!), I''m left with the same question Jet2ks has above. The GOG diamond looks pretty good, but has the glaring leakage right in the center. What is interesting to me is that the Jon''s featured premiere "old mine" cushion cuts also have leakage precisely in the center, almost as if it were intentional.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5114/ and http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6006/

Can anyone comment on whether this is a concern or what affect mounting the stone would have? I know Jon posts here sometimes, would it be normal to reach out to him about it?

Thanks again everyone!

Vlad
 
Just give him a call?
 
Date: 6/17/2009 2:21:26 PM
Author: Vlad

Date: 6/16/2009 7:10:34 PM
Author: jet2ks
Hey jstar, I knew you''d be around for a hunt for a princess.


Question for you, or anyone else, on the GOG stone. The ASET shows a spot of leakage right in the center, which seems pretty common in princess. Is this something that really doesn''t show much once mounted or is it just something you sometimes have to live with to get the better light return over the rest of the diamond? I saw that stone when searching, but don''t really know how to handle that aspect.
Click to expand...

Having read up on the ASET and Ideal Scope evaluations (thanks everyone for the pointers!), I''m left with the same question Jet2ks has above. The GOG diamond looks pretty good, but has the glaring leakage right in the center. What is interesting to me is that the Jon''s featured premiere ''old mine'' cushion cuts also have leakage precisely in the center, almost as if it were intentional.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5114/ and http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6006/

Can anyone comment on whether this is a concern or what affect mounting the stone would have? I know Jon posts here sometimes, would it be normal to reach out to him about it?

Thanks again everyone!

Vlad
Click to expand...
Definitely contact Jon concerning this, he is in a far better position and is a true expert to advise on this than we can.
 
Third on contacting Jon. His signature stones with the lifetime guarantee are hand selected, so there is no doubt those will be awesome stones, and the ASET is very nice. My question was more curiosity on one small aspect of the cutting and light return. Overall, it is a real winner! Please don't let my question cause you to reject a beautiful stone if it fits everything else you want. I've got the basics for princess down pretty well (I think), but am now just trying to broaden my knowledge and education by asking about some of the nitpicky aspects of cut on this shape.

If you do call or email Jon, please let me know what his response is. I have some suspicions as to what the answer will be and the reasoning behind it, but will hold off so as not to sound too stupid.
41.gif
 
Date: 6/17/2009 2:51:42 PM
Author: jet2ks
If you do call or email Jon, please let me know what his response is. I have some suspicions as to what the answer will be and the reasoning behind it, but will hold off so as not to sound too stupid.
41.gif
Click to expand...

LOL. Will do!

Vlad
 
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