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Independent Appraisal Better Than Cert?

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Incognito2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
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Has anyone ever purchased a stone, then brought it to an appraiser to have them tell you that the color they see is 3-4 GIA grades better than the GIA rating on the cert? Just to let you know, it is a fancy shape, we are talking near colorless to colorless (not like a step up from "P" to "L"), and no fluorescense is present. I just wanted to see what I should think (besides "woohoo let me snap that up at the lower GIA grade"
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). Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
 
BUMP

No thoughts???
 
Was the diamond mounted when the appraiser examined it?

If so, the mounting could have influenced his perception of the color.

GIA would have had the advantage of analyzing the color loose, which is a much better scenario for accurate color grading.
 
Hi Richard...thanks for the reply. No, the stone was completely loose, and therefore the appraiser could view it from all angles. Actually, I compared it through a microscope to a higher colored master stone and agreed. I am not questioning the appraiser''s judgement, but I am wondering how there could be a 3-4 grade difference from what GIA said??? In fact, there was another stone of equal color rating that we compared it to, and my preferred stone was NOTICIBLY whiter than the other....my problem is going to be that I want to set it with shared prong stones in the e-ring band, and what color should I choose for those stones? Should I go with GIA''s rating, the appraiser''s rating, or pick stones somewhere in the middle of the colro gap? I want to make sure they complement the center stone of course? Please help!
 
Date: 3/20/2006 10:25:27 AM
Author: Incognito2
Hi Richard...thanks for the reply. No, the stone was completely loose, and therefore the appraiser could view it from all angles. Actually, I compared it through a microscope to a higher colored master stone and agreed. I am not questioning the appraiser''s judgement, but I am wondering how there could be a 3-4 grade difference from what GIA said??? In fact, there was another stone of equal color rating that we compared it to, and my preferred stone was NOTICIBLY whiter than the other....my problem is going to be that I want to set it with shared prong stones in the e-ring band, and what color should I choose for those stones? Should I go with GIA''s rating, the appraiser''s rating, or pick stones somewhere in the middle of the colro gap? I want to make sure they complement the center stone of course? Please help!
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Incognito2,
That sounds like a big difference, if the diamond was graded loose. Does the report match the stone in all other areas, i.e. measurements, clarity, plot, etc? Could this possibly be the wrong report? I would think about sending it back to GIA to be re-graded, for peace of mind.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
 
Did the appraiser have master set of diamonds or was he using cz for the grading?
 
My GIA certed princess is an ''F'' but the appraiser said it was closer to an ''E''.

I have read about ideal cut, lower color grade stones looking much whiter and colorless (specifically the WF ACA rounds) because they were ideal cut.

Was everything else accurate on the report?
 
Does the report match the stone in all other areas, i.e. measurements, clarity, plot, etc?


Yes, in every possible dimension, weight, inclusion map, etc.


Did the appraiser have master set of diamonds or was he using cz for the grading?


Storm, it was a master set of diamonds......


Again, I trust the appraiser''s opinion explicitly, and I even looked at my stone next to the master (the master was 3 grades better than the GIA grade) and my stone looked even whiter than that. My problem is that I need to figure out what color side stones to use for the shared prong e-ring.....any other opinions would be enormously appreciated!!
 
g-h-i sides work with pretty much any color diamond if they are less than around 1/3 the size.
 
1. The appraiser might have mixed up the master stones accidently and didn't think to check them when they were used..... Not likely, but it could occur.

2. The diamond you actually should have received was not the one given to you. The seller or their source sent the wrong diamond -or the wrong paper- and you have gotten "lucky", again by accident.

3. The lab that made the original dcoument made a very rare error of more than a grade. Again, not likely with GIA or AGS and with many other labs, too. Some notorious labs are excluded from this rarity.

4. An appraiser, doing the best they can, has about a 65% chance of getting the same grade as the AGS or GIA gave to a diamond in the D to I range. There is about a 90% chance of being within a 1 grade tolerance up or down. Part of this is the grading system itself. It is subjective, and even the GIA is only 65% in conformance to the underlying system. If they can't do better, who else could hope to? It truthfully cannot be done with the tools we use and with one's eyes. They even use four person temas of graders and still have only 65% conformance. Its a human limit and a subjective system.

I know skilled and qualified people may howl in protest that they can be 100% the same or 90% the same as the GIA or AGS, but some very thorough testing has been done that shows it is not possible. I have hopes in bringing a real "standard" into the arena of diamond color grading sometime in the near future. It needs good proof to be accepted and we are seeking ways to accomplish this proving process. Anyone who says "trust me" is always to be doubted.....Even me....:)
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style="WIDTH: 99%; HEIGHT: 287px">Date: 3/20/2006 1:59:42 PM
Author: Modified Brilliant

Date: 3/20/2006 10:25:27 AM
Author: Incognito2
Hi Richard...thanks for the reply. No, the stone was completely loose, and therefore the appraiser could view it from all angles. Actually, I compared it through a microscope to a higher colored master stone and agreed. I am not questioning the appraiser''s judgement, but I am wondering how there could be a 3-4 grade difference from what GIA said??? In fact, there was another stone of equal color rating that we compared it to, and my preferred stone was NOTICIBLY whiter than the other....my problem is going to be that I want to set it with shared prong stones in the e-ring band, and what color should I choose for those stones? Should I go with GIA''s rating, the appraiser''s rating, or pick stones somewhere in the middle of the colro gap? I want to make sure they complement the center stone of course? Please help!
Click to expand...
Incognito2,
That sounds like a big difference, if the diamond was graded loose. Does the report match the stone in all other areas, i.e. measurements, clarity, plot, etc? Could this possibly be the wrong report? I would think about sending it back to GIA to be re-graded, for peace of mind.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
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I agree with you Jeff, maybe have the stone re-graded by GIA.
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te:[/b] 3/20/2006 5:47:45 PM
Author: Tool Guy
but I am wondering how there could be a 3-4 grade difference from what GIA said???

Should I go with GIA''s rating, the appraiser''s rating, or pick stones somewhere in the middle of the colro gap? I want to make sure they complement the center stone of course? Please help!
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Incognito2[/quote]

I can''t imagine the GIA Gem Trade Lab being "off" 3 or 4 grades. I''ve never seen that happen before.

Sight unseen, if I had to choose whose grading I thought was more credible, I would choose the GIA-GTL grading.

As far as matching side stones goes, since your stone faces up so well, I''d stick within a two grade (same or whiter) tolerance of the GIA grading. Not down in color, but same or whiter.
 
Could it be that the appraisar had a bad day?... or ...

That is quite some difference.


You did not mention who did this appraisal - no names... but as it an appraisal only business or a jeweler who also sells diamonds?
 
Richard, Tool Guy, OldMiner, Storm:

Thank you for your advice. I think my course of action is to request that the appraiser give the stone another look at the stone and check the color once again....I will update on the progress.....As for the melee stones, I had figured I would get them one color higher than the GIA grade on the center....I hope thats a decent plan??

Val:

This is an appraiser only, and Names have been withheld to protec the innocent
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. Again, what is interesting is that I saw this with my own (admittedly untrained) eyes as well, but I am SURE that the stone is the one on the report because of all the dimensions and inclusion map.....
 
Re-checked with the appraiser who looked at the stone again (its still there)....and the ruling stands. The appraiser said that the original diagnosis is still correct, and that compared to the AGS master set, my stone still would be graded where we originally thought......3-4 grades higher than GIA.......
 
H on the GIA

"High E" from the appraiser


And I am very, very happy about it.
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Date: 3/21/2006 3:21:15 PM
Author: Incognito2
H on the GIA

'High E' from the appraiser


And I am very, very happy about it.
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I'm still a bit puzzled by this whole situation. I'm searching for an explanation if there is one. If you're happy with the stone....enjoy your new rock and celebrate!!
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www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
 
Did the appraiser grade the stone DIAGONALLY?

Fancy shaped diamonds need to be graded this way. You did mention in the first post it was a fancy shape.


In one instance about 18 years ago. GIA graded a D color diamond G on one I submitted. I had taken it in to the NY lab, and when I got it back from them - I asked to see a supervisor about it. He took it and came back very sheepishly and told me he didn''t know how that happened, but I was correct, and that they would change the grading to D.

But that''s only happened to me to that extent, once in 25 years.

Rockdoc
 
Date: 3/21/2006 7:54:52 PM
Author: RockDoc
Did the appraiser grade the stone DIAGONALLY?

Fancy shaped diamonds need to be graded this way. You did mention in the first post it was a fancy shape.


In one instance about 18 years ago. GIA graded a D color diamond G on one I submitted. I had taken it in to the NY lab, and when I got it back from them - I asked to see a supervisor about it. He took it and came back very sheepishly and told me he didn''t know how that happened, but I was correct, and that they would change the grading to D.

But that''s only happened to me to that extent, once in 25 years.

Rockdoc
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Rockdoc:

"diagonally" could mean quite a number of different things I would think. From what I remember, the way we were comparing was almost a profile view of the stone....like we were looking through the girdle almost, if that makes any sense? Is this what you mean by "diagonally"?
 
Date: 3/21/2006 9:46:50 PM
Author: Incognito2


Date: 3/21/2006 7:54:52 PM
Author: RockDoc
Did the appraiser grade the stone DIAGONALLY?

Fancy shaped diamonds need to be graded this way. You did mention in the first post it was a fancy shape.


In one instance about 18 years ago. GIA graded a D color diamond G on one I submitted. I had taken it in to the NY lab, and when I got it back from them - I asked to see a supervisor about it. He took it and came back very sheepishly and told me he didn't know how that happened, but I was correct, and that they would change the grading to D.

But that's only happened to me to that extent, once in 25 years.

Rockdoc
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Rockdoc:

'diagonally' could mean quite a number of different things I would think. From what I remember, the way we were comparing was almost a profile view of the stone....like we were looking through the girdle almost, if that makes any sense? Is this what you mean by 'diagonally'?
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Incog.

What shape IS the stone?

To color grade you really don't look through the girdle.

Also consider that mother nature doesn't stand there with a spoon making the body color exactly equal.

Some diamonds will show one color and then the color may change slightly as you turn the stone. GIA and AGS average this.

Fancy shape stone can look colorless through the side and pick up color in the corners, or tips.

Rockdoc
 
Date: 3/21/2006 10:58:57 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
''High E'' versus ''H''.

That''s a huge difference in perception, and value.

I don''t buy it.
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Hi Richard

Wonder when that guy''s eyes were tested last. The difference does sound like a bit of a leap, as you pointed out.

The chance of that being factual is rather slim I think, but remotely possible.

Are you gonna go to Orlando for the conclave?

How is butthead ?
 
RockDoc, Richard:

The shape is a cushion. I don''t fully remember exactly how the stone was oriented when it was graded....at the time it simply wasn''t something I made a mental note of. I do, however, remember the appraiser rotating the stone during the color grading process. As for the appraiser''s eyes needing to be checked....I doubt that. This appraiser is extremely well regarded in your community and could not have been more professional. And I am 25, have perfect eyesight, am pretty color sensitive, and I agreed with the assessment.....I know my eyes are completely untrained, but needless to say when the appraiser asked if I wanted to look at my stone versus the E master, I was extremely skeptical to say the least....but I saw a whiter stone....
 
Date: 3/22/2006 7:33:28 AM
Author: Incognito2
RockDoc, Richard:

The shape is a cushion. I don''t fully remember exactly how the stone was oriented when it was graded....at the time it simply wasn''t something I made a mental note of. I do, however, remember the appraiser rotating the stone during the color grading process. As for the appraiser''s eyes needing to be checked....I doubt that. This appraiser is extremely well regarded in your community and could not have been more professional. And I am 25, have perfect eyesight, am pretty color sensitive, and I agreed with the assessment.....I know my eyes are completely untrained, but needless to say when the appraiser asked if I wanted to look at my stone versus the E master, I was extremely skeptical to say the least....but I saw a whiter stone....
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I''d recommend that you send it to AGS, and have it graded by them.

Appraisers should have color visions tests done every couple of years ( more frequently if over 50 years old).

I would highly suggest this as if the report says H and the lab says E. You would want that to be substanciated very thoroughly, in the case of loss with your insurance.

If AGS grades it higher, I''d also recommend it go back to GIA for a color re-check. They won''t charge you if the color grade is changed, but they will charge if they are adamant about changing it.

Rockdoc
 
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