Impossible to price a diamond?

[bubblehead91423]

Hey guys,

I''m looking for some opinions on the numbers I''m getting from jewelers in the LA diamond district. I walked into the place fairly confident after extensive internet research and forum reading, but now I''m not so sure. Basically I''m looking at the following figures for a round brilliant diamond for engagement:

1. GIA 1.5ct G VS2 Ex/Ex/Ex, $11,000 (diamond is "currently in Israel")
2. EGL 1.5ct G SI1 Ideal+/Ideal/Ideal, $9,600 (examined the diamond and the H/A pattern is clearly visible, inclusions are definitely tough to see under the loupe)

What do you guys think?

In general I''m seeing that the prices on location are no better than on Blue Nile, which is a little strange given that LA is supposed to be the diamond wholesaler capital of the US [according to a jeweler I talked to there ]. I''m a fairly experienced negotiator, and it really seems like I''m close to the minimum price that these guys will offer. (Infact some other shops wouldn''t even talk to me when I mentioned those rough numbers.) So either the prices in the Diamond district are just no better than Blue Nile, or I look like such a fool that people refuse to drop the price to match/beat the online retailers.

There has been other strange stuff going on too, like shop #1 offering a 25% discount to Rapaport for 1.5ct, but refusing to offer more than 10% discount for a 1.24ct, and saying that some Blue Nile diamonds have a "light brown tint" (not color) that isn''t reflected on GIA reports.

At this point I''m considering just giving up and going to Blue Nile for the diamond. No headaches and a large, faceless corporation to hold accountable if something goes wrong. The people I''ve been talking to just seem a little off, and I''m not completely sure that I can trust what I''m getting.

Appreciate all the help!

 

[HeartingDiamonds]

I am based in Los Angeles and I can tell you that whoever you visited flat out lied to you. First of all, LA is NOT the diamond wholesale capital of the world - not even close!

The bit about BN diamonds having a brown tint is also a flat out lie. RUN! Do NOT go back to these people - they do give B&M establishments a bad name.

If you do a little research here, you will find quite a few vendors who have gorgeous diamonds. Posters here are also very helpful and if tell them what you are looking for and your budget, they will even send you links to specific stones.

Good luck to you, and we hope to see what you end up with!

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 6/2/2009 11:44:39 PM
Author: HeartingDiamonds
I am based in Los Angeles and I can tell you that whoever you visited flat out lied to you. First of all, LA is NOT the diamond wholesale capital of the world - not even close!


The bit about BN diamonds having a brown tint is also a flat out lie. RUN! Do NOT go back to these people - they do give B&M establishments a bad name.

If you do a little research here, you will find quite a few vendors who have gorgeous diamonds. Posters here are also very helpful and if tell them what you are looking for and your budget, they will even send you links to specific stones.


Good luck to you, and we hope to see what you end up with!

Well said. These guys are total liars. There are MANY other options for online vendors who will give you great prices and won''t lie to you (besides BN).

 

[bubblehead91423]

Thanks for the confirmation everyone. In all fairness only one of the stores was telling me these strange things. (The son was doing the salesmanship for mom and pop.) The other proprietor seemed very straight up, but I get the feeling that she couldn''t really compete with BN on price. It''s tough to really tell what''s up in these places.

So does anyone have an opinion on whether those quoted figures make sense? Good deals? Total Ripoff? Fantasy numbers? Quick recap - the specs were:

Shop 1: 1.5ct G VS2 GIA Ex/Ex/Ex, $11,000 (stone is "In Israel")
Shop 2: 1.5ct G SI1 EGL Ideal+/Ideal/Ideal, $9600 (stone is definitely pretty clean to the eye, and H/A pattern is clearly visible under the loupe)

These prices seem to be roughly in line with BN prices, and they''re in the neighborhood of what I''m looking to spend.

If there''s someone out there who might be able to provide a better selection/price, I''d appreciate a point in the right direction! (I''m in LA and am looking to buy a diamond in the next week or so)

Thanks!

Date: 6/2/2009 11:46:42 PM
Author: neatfreak
Well said. These guys are total liars. There are MANY other options for online vendors who will give you great prices and won''t lie to you (besides BN).

 

[littlejohn]

I''m only new to this as well and this is the number one prob I have with B&M. It''s relaly hard to find people who will look after you properly.

From the extensive research I''ve done, this forum seems the best place to get unbiased information. There are a few other places on the net that will critisise some of the tools that the people here use but one of them actually offer any alternatives other than "with experience... blah blah blah." While I don''t diagree that nothing can beat experience, but in the absence of an experienced person you can trust. The advice and tools offered on this forum go a long way to helping a "n00b" make the correct choice.
I have also found that the stores that advertise on this forum have a good customer service.
I sent out a resqust for a loose stone yesterday and received a few phone calls and a few emails asking if I needed any help.
In addtion to this, the prices do not appear to be over the top either, they may not be the absolute "rock" bottom price, but they''ll be far from being the highest price.

just my 2c

Good luck.

Cheers

 

[Lorelei]

Hi Bubblehead,

Do you want suggested diamonds from BN or some of the other vendors also?

 

[bubblehead91423]

Hi Loralei,

I''d be willing to look at any vendor who can provide good detail on the stone (say, enough to run an HCA) and will allow a local appraiser examine the stone (if it doesn''t match the cert I can get a refund).

Thanks for the quick replies everyone! Really helps in this huge decision.

Date: 6/3/2009 4:20:27 AM
Author: Lorelei
Hi Bubblehead,


Do you want suggested diamonds from BN or some of the other vendors also?

 

[stone-cold11]

This looks good, ask JA for an Idealscope image and if it is eye-clean if you want to consider it.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1221074.asp

2 more for you to consider.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1128351.asp

This one no need to ask if eye-clean.
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VS1-Premium-Cut-Round-Diamond-939535.asp

But ask for IS for all 3.

 

[lowphat]

Date: 6/3/2009 12:45:18 AM
Author: bubblehead91423
Thanks for the confirmation everyone. In all fairness only one of the stores was telling me these strange things. (The son was doing the salesmanship for mom and pop.) The other proprietor seemed very straight up, but I get the feeling that she couldn''t really compete with BN on price.

It''s very unlikely that a B&M can compete dollar for dollar against an online store. Online stores like BN have a lower overhead (being a dropshipper) and don''t need to make nearly as much profit per sale as a B&M store does.

 

[Todd Gray]

Los Angeles is the Diamond Wholesale Capital of The World?!?!

We must be doing something wrong then because the boxes of diamonds we receive via Fed Ex usually have an Antwerp, Belgium based return address on them and the last time I checked we were importing diamonds direct from the cutter... Boy is Paul going to be surprised when he learns that he has to move to L.A. in order to be a real diamond company! Ha, Ha, Ha, what a LOAD!

Hey Bubblehead, seriously... the only way you''ll be able to "accurately" conduct a price comparison between diamonds is to obtain more information than just the carat weight, color, clarity and cut grade. You''re going to need additional data like the total depth, table diameter, crown angle, pavilion angle, girdle thickness, inclusion type, location, extent, computerized proportions analysis showing the facet-by-facet structure of the diamond, Gems Fantasy Scope images so you can judge the presence or absence of a Hearts & Arrows pattern (not just the seller''s word for it); Ideal Scope or Fire Scope or Symmetriscope images; ASET image; etc. and then put it all up here on PS and let those of us who know what we''re looking at compare the data for you.

Run a search for GIA / AGS vs. EGL here on the forum, no need to get into that debate here because it''s been discussed a zillion times before - but you need to understand how lab reputation and grading practices affect price to further your understanding of diamond prices. Good luck!

 

[denverappraiser]

I agree with the above that the bit about BN stones having brown tint to them is utter nonsense. They’re a store for heaven’s sake, not God. Like every other store, they could carry low color stones if they felt like it but they couldn’t make otherwise high color stones brown even if they wanted to, nor could they get GIA to grade tinted stones as something else. This comment tells you nothing about diamonds and nothing about Blue Nile. On the other hand, it tells you gobs about the person saying it and none of it is good.

You mentioned a discount from Rapaport as one of your ways of identifying a good deal. This is a trap and you’re being lead into it. Rap has it’s uses but this isn’t one of them. Here's an easy test. Take a sample set of specs and enter them into the database here. Notice the range of prices for superficially similar stones, all of which will have identical Rapaport pricing. It's almost always a span of at least 50% and often it's more than double. This is NOT evidence that the cheapest one is the best deal.

Beware of the word 'ideal' when describing cutting. Not everyone uses this in the same way and EGL, in particular, has a very broad range of stones that they'll assign this to.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[joelly]

Date: 6/3/2009 12:45:18 AM
Author: bubblehead91423
Thanks for the confirmation everyone. In all fairness only one of the stores was telling me these strange things. (The son was doing the salesmanship for mom and pop.) The other proprietor seemed very straight up, but I get the feeling that she couldn''t really compete with BN on price. It''s tough to really tell what''s up in these places.

So does anyone have an opinion on whether those quoted figures make sense? Good deals? Total Ripoff? Fantasy numbers? Quick recap - the specs were:

Shop 1: 1.5ct G VS2 GIA Ex/Ex/Ex, $11,000 (stone is ''In Israel'')
Shop 2: 1.5ct G SI1 EGL Ideal+/Ideal/Ideal, $9600 (stone is definitely pretty clean to the eye, and H/A pattern is clearly visible under the loupe)

These prices seem to be roughly in line with BN prices, and they''re in the neighborhood of what I''m looking to spend.

If there''s someone out there who might be able to provide a better selection/price, I''d appreciate a point in the right direction! (I''m in LA and am looking to buy a diamond in the next week or so)

Thanks!

I am also in LA and I am not buying from any B & M stores in LA. Why? Because they are a bunch of liars. Don''t get me started. I''ve been to many of them and my FI had been to many many more, including those brand name stores. Some stores that do give discount, increase their price first than give you a ridiculous discount, in the end you don''t get a bargain anyway.

I am buying online from www.highperformancediamonds.com. One of the Infinity diamond dealers, Wink Jones is very helpful and will send you a video of the diamond that you are interested in. Make sure you know what you want and let him know. He listens to what we want and help us find one within our budget.

It''s good you find pricescope. Start asking many questions here and experts will help you out. By shopping online you will find easy access to many many vendors, many many AGS/GIA certificate and so many diamond pictures, even videos.

So stay away from those B&M stores and happy hunting!!!

I did went to many of them because I just want to know what ct size will look good on me and also it helps to decide on which setting will look good, also whether to go with three stone look or solitaire or pave or halo or both or bezel or no bezel. Go figure! Many options out there!

Have fun! Good Luck!

 

[D&T]

so you''re looking to buy a diamond in the next week? just keep searching online and post your finds here on this board and the expert will help you select the best performing one for your dollar. Really you''ll find quite the gem and far below B&M pricing. I only go to B&M stores to look for inspirational settings also to find out what size, shape of diamond speaks to me so I know what looks good on me, I think finding the diamond is the easy part, the toughest is setting. Good luck and happy shopping.

 

[bubblehead91423]

Thanks! That looks like a pretty good selection.

I think I''ll take a look at the EGL-USA diamond and see how it looks under an ideal-scope and HCA assessment. I''m no expert, but I should know roughly what to look for based on all the great info found here on prices scope.

If that doesn''t pan out, I guess I''ll just throw in the towel on B&M and concentrate on pricescope.

Thanks to everyone for all the help - really appreciate the help for a first-time (and hopefully only-time) buyer.

Date: 6/3/2009 5:28:02 AM
Author: Stone-cold11
This looks good, ask JA for an Idealscope image and if it is eye-clean if you want to consider it.


http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1221074.asp


2 more for you to consider.


http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1128351.asp


This one no need to ask if eye-clean.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VS1-Premium-Cut-Round-Diamond-939535.asp


But ask for IS for all 3.

 

[bubblehead91423]

Hi Everyone -

After much trial and tribulation it looks like I am getting close to a buy. Was wondering if someone could offer their opinion on whether this would be a good move or not:

1.21 ct G VS2 XXX (GIA)

Table: 59%
Depth: 59.2%
Crown Angle: 34.0
Pavillion Angle: 40.6
Measurements: 6.93 - 7.00 x 4.12mm
Thin-Medium Girdle, Faceted, No Culet

This is going into a 3mm platinum setting with round side stones (25pt ea) and pave set diamonds in the band (30pt) for a total of 80pts.

Total Price would be $9500.

Thoughts? I'm ready to end this shopping oddyssey! Thanks for all the help!

EDIT: On the HCA this stone scores "Excellent" in all categories and has a score of 0.9

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/3/2009 1:14:28 PM
Author: Todd Gray
Los Angeles is the Diamond Wholesale Capital of The World?!?!

We must be doing something wrong then because the boxes of diamonds we receive via Fed Ex usually have an Antwerp, Belgium based return address on them and the last time I checked we were importing diamonds direct from the cutter... Boy is Paul going to be surprised when he learns that he has to move to L.A. in order to be a real diamond company! Ha, Ha, Ha, what a LOAD!

Hey Bubblehead, seriously... the only way you''ll be able to ''accurately'' conduct a price comparison between diamonds is to obtain more information than just the carat weight, color, clarity and cut grade. You''re going to need additional data like the total depth, table diameter, crown angle, pavilion angle, girdle thickness, inclusion type, location, extent, computerized proportions analysis showing the facet-by-facet structure of the diamond, Gems Fantasy Scope images so you can judge the presence or absence of a Hearts & Arrows pattern (not just the seller''s word for it); Ideal Scope or Fire Scope or Symmetriscope images; ASET image; etc. and then put it all up here on PS and let those of us who know what we''re looking at compare the data for you.

Run a search for GIA / AGS vs. EGL here on the forum, no need to get into that debate here because it''s been discussed a zillion times before - but you need to understand how lab reputation and grading practices affect price to further your understanding of diamond prices. Good luck!

I am so using that saying Todd!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/6/2009 5:23:33 PM
Author: bubblehead91423
Hi Everyone -

After much trial and tribulation it looks like I am getting close to a buy. Was wondering if someone could offer their opinion on whether this would be a good move or not:

1.21 ct G VS2 XXX (GIA)

Table: 59%
Depth: 59.2%
Crown Angle: 34.0
Pavillion Angle: 40.6
Measurements: 6.93 - 7.00 x 4.12mm
Thin-Medium Girdle, Faceted, No Culet

This is going into a 3mm platinum setting with round side stones (25pt ea) and pave set diamonds in the band (30pt) for a total of 80pts.

Total Price would be $9500.

Thoughts? I'm ready to end this shopping oddyssey! Thanks for all the help!

EDIT: On the HCA this stone scores 'Excellent' in all categories and has a score of 0.9

It has a decent cut, might be a tad shallow but might be a good looking diamond. I am probably being paranoid but just check that the diamond doesn't darken when you look at it closely due to the borderline shallow angle combo - just act as if the diamond is on your hand and pretend to admire it. This is called obstruction as your head/ body blocks the light to the diamond at close scrutiny. If the diamond doesn't darken then you should be fine, this one might not darken but best to check.

 

[stone-cold11]

Ditto above.

 

[WinkHPD]

You have received a lot of good information here from several people, Todd and Neil were particularly eloquent and accurate in my opinion.

I would like to add that at the dealer/retailer level we treat the pricing of diamonds differently for different laboratories as well as for different cutting.

First tier labs, such as AGS or GIA are known to be more strict than second and third tier labs who use looser grading as their competitive advantage to draw in people who want to use that grading to sell their diamonds.

As such, knowledgeable vendors pay less for the diamonds from these second, third or even lower tier labs.

I recently had a traveling sales rep come in to my office. He was offering me diamonds at 55% below Rap. I can guarantee you that they were NOT accompanied with a top tier lab report, which in this country is a report from either AGS or GIA.

So, when you compare a diamond from GIA with a diamond from EGL as you are doing above, you are not comparing apples to apples. You do not know, or have any way to know what GIA would grade that diamond from EGL. It could have the same grade, if you are lucky, or it could be one or two and sometimes even more grades lower in color and clarity, or sometimes even a grade higher. (Just don''t hold your breath for those rare stones.)

There is a reason that we vendors pay less for the diamonds graded from lower tiered diamonds, and that is the same reason that we SHOULD be selling them for less, although many sell them for nearly the same price as the top tier labs. If someone pays 40% less for a gem from a lower tiered lab and sells it for ten to fifteen percent less than a gem with the same grade from a top tiered lab, well that is pretty good for the seller, and not so good for the buyer.

Wink

 

[bubblehead91423]

Date: 6/7/2009 8:42:05 AM
Author: Wink
You have received a lot of good information here from several people, Todd and Neil were particularly eloquent and accurate in my opinion.
Wink

Yes, I think at this point it really is coming down to price. The tough part is that it''s hard to judge how much excellent light performance is worth on the market. The rap sheets give good baseline prices, and we know that ideal/excellent cut diamonds in the 1-1.25ct range can be had for 20-25 (or more) below rap, but no one can tell me how much of a premium I should pay for a stone that scores below 2 on the Holloway cut advisor.

Any one have an idea how much of a premium to Rap a super ideal stone should go for? (By this I mean excellent under all dimensions on a Sarin report, excellent polish and symmetry, excellent dimensions). I''m guessing something like 15% premium to Rap, but of course the experts here would know a lot better.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/7/2009 4:40:50 PM
Author: bubblehead91423

Date: 6/7/2009 8:42:05 AM
Author: Wink
You have received a lot of good information here from several people, Todd and Neil were particularly eloquent and accurate in my opinion.
Wink

Yes, I think at this point it really is coming down to price. The tough part is that it''s hard to judge how much excellent light performance is worth on the market. The rap sheets give good baseline prices, and we know that ideal/excellent cut diamonds in the 1-1.25ct range can be had for 20-25 (or more) below rap, but no one can tell me how much of a premium I should pay for a stone that scores below 2 on the Holloway cut advisor.

Any one have an idea how much of a premium to Rap a super ideal stone should go for? (By this I mean excellent under all dimensions on a Sarin report, excellent polish and symmetry, excellent dimensions). I''m guessing something like 15% premium to Rap, but of course the experts here would know a lot better.

Now you are getting into an area where you must decide between price and value. What things are important to you? Does a lifetime trade up policy have value, does a lifetime buy back policy have value, does the first year''s insurance have value, if so those diamonds will likely cost more, although probably not much. If you just want the lowest price, you may very well get the lowest value also, as many diamonds can be marked as ideal excellent that are not as incredible looking as another diamond with the same marking, reference John Pollard''s excellent photo journal article about Laboratory cut grades, what the report doesn''t show. http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/72/1/Laboratory-Cut-Grades-What-the-report-doesn%e2%80%99t-show.aspx.

You are also asking for an answer that does not exist. For a one carat diamond that premium to Rap for the most super duper cut with bells and whistles may be only 6% premium to rap, but for a 1.90 with the same cutting it may be 25%. Oh, and what it is this week will be different from what it is next week as supplies in the supply chain change. Those who keep track of these things know when and how to adjust their prices to reflect the market. Sometimes it will be halves that are high, others quarters, then 3cts and for a while 10cts were insane, now they are not so much, maybe, depends on the quality of the clarity and color. Oh, and did I mention that the % varies with color and clarity?

Rap is a tool, not an answer, and those who freely disseminate and pass out the tool that is supposed to NOT be shared with the public, often hope to use their insider knowledge of the tool to convince those who think it is an answer to spend money that other dealers will not be asking for.

Perhaps one of the cutters can see this and give you a better answer, they actually know many of the things that I refer to, I just know that they happen and that they change on a week to week basis. I just know that I think you might be a little high for this week in your estimate for % over rap, but although I have rap, I rarely use it, and never for the purpose that you are asking, so I can not provide you with a definitive answer, as I do not believe that it exists.

Wink

P.S. The real value of rap to me is the articles. (I know I sound like the little boy caught with a Playboy, ("I was only reading the articles") but it is true, Martin is a gifted researcher and writes some great articles and has some fantastic interviews. For pricing there are other, better ways to get that information.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 6/7/2009 4:40:50 PM
Author: bubblehead91423

Date: 6/7/2009 8:42:05 AM

Author: Wink

You have received a lot of good information here from several people, Todd and Neil were particularly eloquent and accurate in my opinion.

Wink

Yes, I think at this point it really is coming down to price. The tough part is that it's hard to judge how much excellent light performance is worth on the market. The rap sheets give good baseline prices, and we know that ideal/excellent cut diamonds in the 1-1.25ct range can be had for 20-25 (or more) below rap, but no one can tell me how much of a premium I should pay for a stone that scores below 2 on the Holloway cut advisor.


Any one have an idea how much of a premium to Rap a super ideal stone should go for? (By this I mean excellent under all dimensions on a Sarin report, excellent polish and symmetry, excellent dimensions). I'm guessing something like 15% premium to Rap, but of course the experts here would know a lot better.

Bubblehead,

1) I know of no dealers who price stones based on the HCA score. I would be very curious if you find someone who does.
2) GIA ‘excellent’ is a very broad range.
3) Dealers do not all use the same pricing models, they do not all use the same sources and they don’t even all apply the same variables when they calculate their prices. ‘Hearts and Arrows’ or country of origin, for example, are attributes that some stores will charge a premium for and others aren’t even prepared to discuss.

As mentioned in my last post, using Rap as a benchmark and then pricing stones based on a discount or premium from that as a way of identifying a bargain is a formula for trouble. I’m guessing you will have no difficulty finding a stone reported to be ‘excellent’ based on Sarin data for less than Rap, probably by quite a bit from one of the stripped down vendors. This is especially true if you aren't too narrow in specs like size so you can jump on what you see as a deal when it comes along. You can probably even find one with GIA pedigree although that will drive the price up some. It’s easy enough to find good comps. Even if you have no interest in shopping with the vendors here, the database is free and open to the public and you can use it to search for comparable offers that you can they use to beat up your jeweler. By the way, this is a far more effective approach than discounting Rap. There are some glitches inherent in the system but, for the most part, these are real offers of real stones from real dealers who are fully prepared to overnight it to you if you decide to buy. What better benchmark could you ask for?

4) I read Rapaport and Playboy for the articles too.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[bubblehead91423]

Hehehhe ok ok....I can tell I''m starting to drive you guys a little crazy. Now imagine if I were doing this, in person, 5 times over the course of two weeks!

I did take a look at pricescope and I really didn''t see anything that jumped out at me - the closest I could find was this diamond, which was a point smaller and was going for ~20% more (although it didn''t have the shallowness issue). All those tests must be expensive!

Anyways, thanks for all the great advice everyone...but I think what I''m hearing is that there might not be any stable comps for the specific stone I''m looking at. That''s fair.

But now that everyone knows what I''m looking for (~1.25ct G VS2 GIA XXX, H&A, HCA <2 for ~$8000), I''d be happy to take a look at some stones if someone''s offering! (although only for a few more days) I appreciate the specific stones pointed out earlier, but I don''t think I''m willing to go SI1 unless the merchandise is in-hand and I can examine it...which is not the case for most of the internet retailers.

Thanks again everyone - off to read some more articles...

 

[bubblehead91423]

Thanks Loralei, appreciate the advice!