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Important Question about old GIA certs

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IheartPS

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 20, 2007
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First of all, thank you to everyone on Pricescope. As my screen-name says, I love this site. You guys are unbelievably helpful.



Now, here''s my situation: I have been faxed a GIA certificate for a stone that I am very interested in. It''s a G, VS2, 1.74 carat, and an unbelievable price. The cert is from 2005, however, so it doesn''t include the key angle measurements. I went to the GIA web site to run a "report check," and when I did the report came up with the key measurements (crown angle, crown height, pavilion depth, pavilion angle) in the "additional information" column, and they looked great. Was that information collected by the GIA when they graded the diamond? Is it reliable? Should I still pay to get a Sarin or Megascope report?

And of course, do you guys think it’s ok to buy a diamond with a 2-year old cert?

I need to call the wholesaler back tomorrow, so any advice would be GREATLY appreciated. And again, thank you to everyone on this site for all the advice you have already provided me.









 
Date: 5/20/2007 4:42:01 PM
Author:IheartPS

....Was that information collected by the GIA when they graded the diamond?

Click to expand...
I understand it was...


Is it reliable? Should I still pay to get a Sarin or Megascope report?

And of course, do you guys think it’s ok to buy a diamond with a 2-year old cert?
Click to expand...
Though reliable, the data is rounded. Since I''m not sure the impact of that...if you do have an option to double check with either sarin or megascope...I think this could add confidence. The 2 year old cert shouldn''t be a problem. Sounds promising...

Are you saying you return it tomorrow or it''s yours? Ideally you can check to your hearts content and still return if you like (seeking out an appraiser to check it further)...but you''ve probably, I think, done reasonable due diligence already, and if you like the way it looks, I think you''re pretty good.
 
Thank you for your thoughts. I do not possess the diamond yet. The seller has a no-return policy so I need to be certain. Of course this makes me nervous, but the price is excellent, so I''m tempted to concede. My plan for the moment is to call him tomorrow and ask him to meet me at an independent appraiser''s office. I''ll have the work done there, and if it still looks good, I''ll buy it. Does that seem reasonable?

The angles from the "additional info" column on the GIA report check are the following:


Additional Information:

Crown Angle: 34.5°

Crown Height: 15.5 %



Pavilion Angle: 40.8°



Pavilion Depth: 43 %



Star length: 60 %



Lower Half: 75 %



Cut Grade: Excellent


However, the symmetry is only "Very Good." Might that mean that parts of the stone have worse angles than those listed above?




 
Date: 5/20/2007 5:09:39 PM
Author: IheartPS


Thank you for your thoughts. I do not possess the diamond yet. The seller has a no-return policy so I need to be certain. Of course this makes me nervous, but the price is excellent, so I'm tempted to concede. My plan for the moment is to call him tomorrow and ask him to meet me at an independent appraiser's office. I'll have the work done there, and if it still looks good, I'll buy it. Does that seem reasonable?

The angles from the 'additional info' column on the GIA report check are the following:


Additional Information:

Crown Angle: 34.5°



Crown Height: 15.5 %





Pavilion Angle: 40.8°





Pavilion Depth: 43 %





Star length: 60 %





Lower Half: 75 %





Cut Grade: Excellent


However, the symmetry is only 'Very Good.' Might that mean that parts of the stone have worse angles than those listed above?




Click to expand...
The highlighted area would stop me dead in my tracks. This is way too much money for that kind of sale....

Even though the numbers look good, IMO, a reputable jeweler just doesn't do that.

Just my .02.
2.gif



p.s. I love your nic!
 
I hear you about the no return policy, Ellen. But isn''t there a price at which you would accept the deal even without a return guarantee? I''m also thinking that by having him meet me at an appraiser''s office (one I select), I can eliminate a lot of risk.

The situation is also complicated by the fact that this guy is actually no longer in the diamond business; he designs jewelry now, I believe, but he has connections from his old days. I think that''s why he''s against returns. He''s just putting this deal together for a little extra cash, you know.
 
PS - If anyone has thoughts on the stone''s star length and lower half numbers, I would greatly appreciate an opinion on them. Thanks.
 
I heart PS...

Am I missing table & depth? Still, crown & pavilion are classic.

A few things:

1) Agree that no return is strange
2) Still...everybody...whether WF, GOG, JA all have last day for you to review, keep, or send back.
3) I would not accept meeting your seller at the indep appraiser office. The indep appraiser is sufficiently licensed such that your seller should agree to leave it with him or her...as is the established customer reviewed protocol on this board...and for you to have your personal, unmoderated, talk with them. It's just me, perhaps, but when with my wife, and talking about a purchase at a store...I tell the salesperson to walk away. Maybe you can work around or with this...but THAT would stop me, if it was required.
4) who is the appraiser? Many listed here are known here. From my point of view...some will not be very hip to variability of performance...they'll just confirm the diamond matches the cert. You DO want more than that.
5) Remember...your seller almost certainly got this fish from the sea. If you don't buy it form him, it will go into the sea, and be available from another vendor. Surely, unless your vendor is taking a loss...one of reputable vendors on this board would also be able to sell it to you...at what could only reasonably be an amount not entirely different from your friend.

Just some thoughts.
 
"Reasonableness" in the no return policy.

This was probably made because he is getting the stone on consignment and marking it up by small amount.

When a stone is provided from a dealer, and is sold and paid for, the sale is "final" ( in the trade ). Any consession made by a seller is sort of at his own risk.

Let''s say the stone was $ 10k and he is marking it up 7%. He would make $ 700 on the sale, but if you returned the stone, he would have to give back "everything" and be left with a $ 10K money shortage. If a merchant is working on a short markup, he wants the sale to "stick". This may also be due to the fact that your seller may not have a "long buying history" with the supplier, or maybe has returned a lot of items in the past, and in order to get the stone has to agree to the supplier''s "demands" as to the terms of the sale ( no return or refund). He is probably just passing on those terms to you.

But from a consumer''s buying perspective, this seems really unreasoanble, especially if the stone is "expensive". Now is the time to perhaps consider being a little "assertive" in your negotiations. Negotiation is an "art" that good buyers learn or at least consider. Explain to the seller what your concerns are and propose an acceptable resolution of compromiise, that would may YOU, the seller and the seller''s supplier feel "secure" that you''re serious.

One suggestion might be to make a short time limit on the refund. (7 days etc.). Or maybe send it to an independent to provide you with the peace of mind, before a committment to purchase is made.

No reason why EVERYONE in the transaction can''t be flexible when reasonable requests are made.

If the supplier is stubborn about this, then perhaps you need to decide to find a more flexible seller, or perhaps assume the risk. But assuming risk is gambling. Personally if they are not reasonable about honoring a legitmate concern you have, I''d be suspicious. I''d weigh in with the usual thought is; that if it is low priced, there is a reason.

Hope this helps.

Rockdoc
 
Date: 5/20/2007 4:42:01 PM
Author:IheartPS

First of all, thank you to everyone on Pricescope. As my screen-name says, I love this site. You guys are unbelievably helpful.




Now, here''s my situation: I have been faxed a GIA certificate for a stone that I am very interested in. It''s a G, VS2, 1.74 carat, and an unbelievable price. The cert is from 2005, however, so it doesn''t include the key angle measurements. I went to the GIA web site to run a ''report check,'' and when I did the report came up with the key measurements (crown angle, crown height, pavilion depth, pavilion angle) in the ''additional information'' column, and they looked great. Was that information collected by the GIA when they graded the diamond? Is it reliable? Should I still pay to get a Sarin or Megascope report?

And of course, do you guys think it’s ok to buy a diamond with a 2-year old cert?


I need to call the wholesaler back tomorrow, so any advice would be GREATLY appreciated. And again, thank you to everyone on this site for all the advice you have already provided me.











Click to expand...
Just how UNBELIEVEABLE is the price???

MWG
 
Wonderful input, all around. The table is 56% and the depth is 60.9%.

When I discussed the no-return policy with the dealer on Friday, I was blunt. I told him that I didn''t like it one bit. We went back and forth on it, but ultimately, all I could get him to say was that if the stone didn''t match the cert, he''d take it back. Otherwise, it was mine, if I bought it. I know this sucks, but...

... the price is $13,500. (Again, it''s a G, VS2, 1.74.) The guy is a friend of a friend who has bought a lot of stuff from him. He is well trusted by our mutual friend, and the mutual friend might have some leverage here due to past (and future) purchases. What do you think of the price?

I found the appraiser on PS and the appraiser has a Megascope, DiamCalc, Ideal-scope, etc. I was hoping to get all this work done before buying anything, so I would know exactly what I''m getting. Does anyone know how much this work would cost?

So, now you guys know the whole picture. Has your analysis changed any?
 
Date: 5/20/2007 6:39:37 PM
Author: IheartPS
Wonderful input, all around. The table is 56% and the depth is 60.9%.

When I discussed the no-return policy with the dealer on Friday, I was blunt. I told him that I didn''t like it one bit. We went back and forth on it, but ultimately, all I could get him to say was that if the stone didn''t match the cert, he''d take it back. Otherwise, it was mine, if I bought it. I know this sucks, but...

... the price is $13,500. (Again, it''s a G, VS2, 1.74.) The guy is a friend of a friend who has bought a lot of stuff from him. He is well trusted by our mutual friend, and the mutual friend might have some leverage here due to past (and future) purchases. What do you think of the price?

I found the appraiser on PS and the appraiser has a Megascope, DiamCalc, Ideal-scope, etc. I was hoping to get all this work done before buying anything, so I would know exactly what I''m getting. Does anyone know how much this work would cost?

So, now you guys know the whole picture. Has your analysis changed any?
Click to expand...
Sounds like you like the stone and that is all that really counts. Will you have to pay Sales tax??

MWG
 
HI:

What does the plot say about the nature/location of the inclusion(s)?

cheers--Sharon
 
I do like the G, VS2, MWG. It is the exact color/clarity/carat I'm looking for, and the price is still in my budget (although barely). Not sure about the sales tax question.

All the cut data looks good. I am unsure about the star and lower half lengths, however. Any thoughts on those measurements? It seems hard to get firm answers from the other PS threads on those measurements.

The inclusions look miniscule - feathers in the perimeter.

Do you think the appraiser would be able to provide me the performance info I need since he has the tools I listed above? How much do you think he'd charge me?
 
Well, sales tax will run you , depending on where you live, close to an extra $1000 or more. This is another reason I bought online, I went and saw the diamonds in person and had them mail them to Maytal and I did not have to pay sales tax. Saved alot of money.

And with gas prices gone crazy......all budgets are getting tighter!!!!!

MWG
 
Date: 5/20/2007 7:00:17 PM
Author: IheartPS
I do like the G, VS2, MWG. It is the exact color/clarity/carat I''m looking for, and the price is still in my budget (although barely). Not sure about the sales tax question.

All the cut data looks good. I am unsure about the star and lower half lengths, however. Any thoughts on those measurements? It seems hard to get firm answers from the other PS threads on those measurements.

The inclusions look miniscule - feathers in the perimeter.

Do you think the appraiser would be able to provide me the performance info I need since he has the tools I listed above? How much do you think he''d charge me?
Click to expand...

Probably $ 125-$ 240.00 depending how much testing he provides.

When your considering spending $ 13-$ 15K you''ll find a professional appraisal the least of the costs.


he ASET images or B Scope would be more "performance" driven tools for analysis. Diamond Calc is good when you have a scan to import into it. If the appraiser has the PGS software from AGS, that would be preferred as well. That is your choice though, in appraising the appraiser.

Rockdoc
 
Sounds like your appraiser is performance sensitive. I''d try to keep your seller away from him, or avoid any unnecessary triangulation. Though Rock is probably right about the price, just ask?

The option does seem attractive.
 
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