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Idealscope - do they magnify inclusions?

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JenniJ

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
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(Continued from a previous thread... )
I''m trying to get the most for my money and am going out on a limb with this 1.6ct D SI2. I am worried that the Idealscope image looks like the inclusions might be very obvious.

Specs are:

D, 1.60ct, SI2, Ex symmetry, Ex polish
Nearly eyeclean (see below...)
Medium girdle
No fluoro
Depth: 61.3%
Width: 57%
Crown height: 15%
Pavillion depth: 43%

Here are the comments from the gemologist at Union:
"I have just looked at the 1.60, it is so much life, it is very brilliant. There are two small white inclusions that are pretty difficult to see, the one in the center is very hard to see, especially against the flesh color of my skin. I have taken an x-ray image of the stone for you, I am not the best at taking them, I could not get the sharpest photo but, you can see that there is little light leakage. Do not be alarmed when you see the image, there is a lot of lot shining into the image and it is magnified quite a bit so, I assure you, it does not look like this in person."

I hate to be cynical, but is it safe to trust their opinion, or are they just trying to make a sale?

Is it worth it to get a 1.6ct that I otherwise couldn''t afford?

Thank you for your thoughts!!

AB382609isc 001.jpg
 
The Sarin...

AB382609sarin2.jpg
 
Another Idealscope...

AB382609isc 002.jpg
 
Well of course they ARE trying to make a sale but it’s up to you to decide if this puts undue pressure on their judgment on the way they describe things. That’s an evaluation of the dealer, not an evaluation of the stone. In answer to your question in the headline, yes the pink & black background does tend to make certain inclusions appear more prominent in the photos. In ‘normal’ viewing conditions the background is going to be white and if the inclusions are white they will have lower relief than what you see in the IS pics.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Do you have just a regular photo of the stone? I own an eyeclean SI2, so I know it is possible. You just really have to see multiple pictures from several different angles to see if it is noticeable. Also, realize that when your diamond is on your finger it will most always be moving, making it even harder to spot hard to see inclusions.
 
Thanks for your input! I guess I should have asked too - what do you think of the potential of the stone based on the IS?
 
On paper, it sounds like an excellent stone.
I would prefer to know what kind of inclusions are causing the interference of the image.
Some inclusions are whitish or reflective - so will be invisible against the white-light return form the stone. Hopefully that''s the case with your stone.
But if they''re black crystal inclusions, I''d be much more careful.
A simple picture of the stone would show the inclusions - or a picture of the GIA plot with the type and locations of inclusions.
 
Thanks FB, I have requested a regular magnified image of the stone. Per the gemologist, the inclusions are white feathers, and difficult to see. Below is the inclusion plot, it''s pretty busy, which is why I am so concerned about it being "nearly eye clean"...

So you all think the IS looks okay? It looks a little distorted or something to me...

Inclusion plot 3.jpg
 
Date: 8/19/2009 6:45:04 PM
Author: JenniJ
Thanks for your input! I guess I should have asked too - what do you think of the potential of the stone based on the IS?
Click to expand...
Looking at the image I would ask your rep at UD to check if the diamond darkens at close scrutiny, this is called obstruction where a diamond can darken if you view it closely due to the viewer's head blocking the light. Looking at the IS it might show this but best to ask someone who can inspect the diamond for you and check it out.
 
I do not wish to comment on this particular stone, but in general.

Idealscope-pics can indeed, depending on the location and nature of the inclusion, make the inclusion more apparent. I would add that this iseven more the case in the hearts-view in a H&A-scope.

Live long,
 
I think you are measuring oranges with a banana-meter. The idealscope is a cut tool. You should be evaluating the inclusions under magnification. If they are eye-visible (face-up), the stone should grade I1 or lower. There is no such thing as an SI2 with eye-visible inclusions. This is how the SI3 grade, though unrecognized by GIA, came into being. SI3''s are stones with eye-visible inclusions that are not particularly offensive. If the inclusions bother you, move to a stone that is slightly smaller with an SI1 grade.

BTW, the cut looks very good.
 
Given the shallow pavilion that might be prone to obstruction issues and the somewhat visible inclusions(based on the vendors words) personally I would be inclined to use such a diamond in a pendant or earring rather than a ring where it is looked at much closer.
 
Date: 8/20/2009 7:48:32 AM
Author: ct-appr
I think you are measuring oranges with a banana-meter. The idealscope is a cut tool. You should be evaluating the inclusions under magnification. If they are eye-visible (face-up), the stone should grade I1 or lower. There is no such thing as an SI2 with eye-visible inclusions. This is how the SI3 grade, though unrecognized by GIA, came into being. SI3''s are stones with eye-visible inclusions that are not particularly offensive. If the inclusions bother you, move to a stone that is slightly smaller with an SI1 grade.


BTW, the cut looks very good.
Click to expand...


No such thing as an SI2 with eye visible inclusions? Where in the world would you get such information? There are many SI1s with eye visible inclusions.
 
Hmm... I feel torn. I don''t think it will bother me to have to scrutinize the stone to find the small inclusions. I will ask about obstruction, but in the meantime here are the images I received today... I don''t know if this help?

Also, the gemologist says the feathers do not pose an issue in terms of structural integrity...

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate your help on this!

stonejj1.jpg
 
Another pic...

stonejj3.jpg
 
And the last one...

stonejj4.jpg
 
Maybe I should add - the stone is less than $5600, which I feel is really good for a 1.6ct well cut D SI2?
 
Here's what I think:

The inclusions will not be noticed in normal lighting conditions by the vast majority of casual observers at a normal viewing distance of one foot away.

Of the few who might be able to see "something" at one foot distance, most won't be sure whether it's an inclusion, scintillation, a smear of grease, a speck of fluff or a strange reflection from your surroundings.

Serious observers are likely to find the inclusions at six inches when the stone is positioned correctly.

You - as the owner - will be able to find the inclusions at 1ft with a bit of tilting and light manipulation because you know where to look. I would also be able to see the inclusions at one foot in the correct lighting because you have told me that there are whitish feathers under the table!
27.gif
 
Does the diamond have a lab report? What lab?
 
Good point, glitterata.
The price seems particularly cheap for a 1.6ct/D/SI2.
I assumed that the report was GIA and that it merely had gone a bit fuzzy in the transfer, but I now remember that I've seen EGL certs with the same kind of inclusion plots as shown above.


edit:

Yup. Just pulled out a couple of diamond certs - GIA and EGL.
That diamond inclusion plot looks like EGL.

The GIA cert has the upper and lower view of inclusion plots slightly closer together than an EGL cert. The GIA cert also has the diamond aligned to have the pointed ends of the pavilion facets meeting the girdle in the facing; N-S and E-W (with points looking like a compass).
 
Although if it''s EGL, wouldn''t you expect the grade to be SI3? I wonder if it''s some other lab or the store''s own grading.
 
Hi all - Sorry about the confusion, I was off working
1.gif
. Yep, the cert is EGL. I tried to attach the cert before but the file was too big, so I just spent a few minutes learning how to compress the file.

I, too, was thinking it should be an SI3 (with my limited knowledge), but it still seems like a good deal if it''s sufficiently difficult to see.

The EGL thing does make me hesitate, I just love the idea of a 1.6ct on my budget. Here were my thoughts from the other thread:

"The problem is that this is an EGL stone, which I am a little leary about; however, I have had an EGL in the past that was beautiful. As one PS member says, buy the stone, not the paper. So I am considering going this route because I can get much more carat for my money, and I am not obsessed with clarity if the cut, color, and "sparkle" of the stone are excellent. If I don''t go EGL, I will end up with a 1.20 ct diamond. I liked this one because I know EGL is most lenient on color, and this D instills some confidence that it will at least be an F or G (which is what I would get in a GIA stone for my $5600 budget)."

The previous EGL was my original e-ring .92ct diamond which was returned with my original e-ring when I was having many, many problems with the setting (took it back 4 times in 7 months because of stones falling out and things fixed incorrectly!) That was a nightmare. So now I''m starting over... with a slightly increased budget from the first time.
2.gif


Would appreciate your thoughts on what you would do...!

327-34.jpg
 
Update from gemologist at Union in response to the question of obstruction:

"The diamond does not darken up, not at all, it is very nice and bright, it is a D in color."
 
Date: 8/20/2009 4:15:47 PM
Author: JenniJ
Update from gemologist at Union in response to the question of obstruction:

'The diamond does not darken up, not at all, it is very nice and bright, it is a D in color.'
Click to expand...
Ok that sounds good, if you want to purchase the diamond you could get an independant appraisal during the return period, here is an appraiser tool you can use to find one in your area.

https://www.pricescope.com/appr_list.aspx
 
Date: 8/20/2009 7:48:32 AM
Author: ct-appr
I think you are measuring oranges with a banana-meter. The idealscope is a cut tool. You should be evaluating the inclusions under magnification. If they are eye-visible (face-up), the stone should grade I1 or lower. There is no such thing as an SI2 with eye-visible inclusions. This is how the SI3 grade, though unrecognized by GIA, came into being. SI3''s are stones with eye-visible inclusions that are not particularly offensive. If the inclusions bother you, move to a stone that is slightly smaller with an SI1 grade.

BTW, the cut looks very good.
Click to expand...
This is a common thought that is absolutely NOT correct. Please speak with someone at GIA or AGS who can help you put that thought to rest. I have seen a GIA graded diamond as high as VS1 with an eye visible inclusion. This was at a refresher class given by GIA and was one of their sample stones. It was the only VS1 that I ever saw with an eye visible inclusion and it was a quite large diamond with an inclusion that would have been lost in a smaller diamond with smaller virtual facets. (There are many discussions here on Pricescope about virtual facets if you wish to search for them.)

However, it is important that we not propagate incorrect information to the public such as the old myth that eye visible is an automatic I1. Since different people have different visual accuity it is not possible for me to say what you might see or vice versa.

Wink
 
Date: 8/20/2009 7:30:10 PM
Author: Wink
Date: 8/20/2009 7:48:32 AM

Author: ct-appr

I think you are measuring oranges with a banana-meter. The idealscope is a cut tool. You should be evaluating the inclusions under magnification. If they are eye-visible (face-up), the stone should grade I1 or lower. There is no such thing as an SI2 with eye-visible inclusions. This is how the SI3 grade, though unrecognized by GIA, came into being. SI3''s are stones with eye-visible inclusions that are not particularly offensive. If the inclusions bother you, move to a stone that is slightly smaller with an SI1 grade.


BTW, the cut looks very good.
Click to expand...

This is a common thought that is absolutely NOT correct. Please speak with someone at GIA or AGS who can help you put that thought to rest. I have seen a GIA graded diamond as high as VS1 with an eye visible inclusion. This was at a refresher class given by GIA and was one of their sample stones. It was the only VS1 that I ever saw with an eye visible inclusion and it was a quite large diamond with an inclusion that would have been lost in a smaller diamond with smaller virtual facets. (There are many discussions here on Pricescope about virtual facets if you wish to search for them.)


However, it is important that we not propagate incorrect information to the public such as the old myth that eye visible is an automatic I1. Since different people have different visual accuity it is not possible for me to say what you might see or vice versa.


Wink
Click to expand...

Right on man. Would like to comment more but ...
19.gif
 
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