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I was right... (update from I decided, I give up)

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Patchee

Shiny_Rock
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Welp, had a talk on Friday night, I actually wrote down 3 pages of stuff I wanted to discuss.

My guy does not want to get married. He is 36 so the chance of him ever wanting that, I think I slim.

SO, to all you LIW, thank you for listening to my ups and downs of being just another ladie in waiting but having difficulties talking about it and so on.

Think about it this way LIW, at least you are heading towards an engagement ... no matter how long it takes, at least it will happen. I

''ll be visiting here now and again. I can''t wait for Urgh & Stuff to propose and Sumbride... Wren (other names of Wren) and Meep to move forward.
 
I''m so sorry, Patchee. Although it''s good that you found out now rather than later, I can''t imagine what you must be going through. I wish you all the best and I hope that you visit often.
 
Patchee --- I am really so sorry to hear that. (( hugs))

We''ll look forward to your visits -- I''m sending lots of positive thoughts your way!
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jen
 
I can't remember...but had you guys had this discussion before? Is this the first time he has actually come out and said he does not want to get married? How long have you been dating?

So what are your plans now?

Sometimes they don't know what they got til it's gone! Good luck..
 
Patchee-

I''m so sorry to hear this.
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I think you were so very brave and strong to stay true to your convictions and what you want. Take this time to be around family and friends, heal, and focus on you. Big hugs hon-
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I''m so sorry to hear this. Just remember that you DESERVE to be in a relationship that is heading in the direction that YOU want it to go. If he''s doesn''t want to get married and you do, then it''s time to cut ties and move on.

Hope you are doing ok!
 
Patchee, I am so sorry that you have to go through this. I''m glad that you decided to talk to him about your desires for the future and didn''t wait any longer to find out where his head is at. I admire that you stuck to what you value and what is best for you --- you are a strong woman to do this!!! I wish you the best and hope to see you around. You are truly a role model to uncompromising women everywhere. *hugs*
 
Date: 4/24/2006 12:39:01 PM
Author: lulutheleo
I''m so sorry to hear this. Just remember that you DESERVE to be in a relationship that is heading in the direction that YOU want it to go. If he''s doesn''t want to get married and you do, then it''s time to cut ties and move on.

Hope you are doing ok!
Ditto. Don''t compromise. There''s a guy out there you''re meant to marry.
 
Patchee...
I really am very sorry to hear this. Did he actually come out and say that he doesn''t want to get married, because I thought I remembered a previous post where he did say that he was thinking about marriage with you...However, he may have been saying this to placate you, which you don''t deserve, at all.
I''m glad you found the courage to bring this up to him. I hope you have the courage to also do what you feel is right, regardless of what anyone else tells you. If this is the man for you, and you absolutely know it, then I''m not going to say "leave him! Dump him!" I just want to make sure that you are looking at it with your head instead of just your heart, you know? Matters like this aren''t easy...
Do you have a gameplan yet? Please come back and keep in touch with us. You might not be a LIW with him, but you''re still a LIW and there are many other fish in th sea...ones who want the same things as you...

We love you!
 
Patchee,

I''m so sorry that you have to go through this...

You have to be very proud of yourself for being honest with you. It takes a lot of courage specially when there are strong feelings involved.

I agree with the others....you deserve to have what you want out of a relationship...and I''m sure you will find it!

*Hugs*

M~
 
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I said I would be strong here but reading your replies... I truly am sad. I know I deserve to be in a relationship that is moving towards future intentions. I thought that is where we were headed ... I did have a gut feeling (ya know the ones us girls get) that he was commitment-phobic but I had to hear it to totally believe my gut feeling.

To answer some questions.
Mara- About 2 months ago I brought it up to him for the first time (we''ve been dating 2 years almost 6 months, not too soon to bring it up, I thought) and when I mentioned our future he said he loved me and was devoted to me... I was so nervous that I took that in, although it was vauge... so, I can on PS and chatted with you ladies and rehashed the conversation the following evening... He told me he wanted to get married someday .. that is when I felt the gut....

So, this time around (friday) 2 months later, I really got all my thoughts out.... He said a materialist ring and a piece of paper from the state means nothing to him. He sees how people do not take marriage seriously, that people who are married are not all happy. He likes our relationship the way it is, we don''t need a paper to tell us our love. The he proceeded to say, If you got pregnant then I would marry you ... Gee thanks pal~!

So, I felt utterly hurt by him thinking -what if you have a ring on your finger then the general public all of the sudden clasifys you as not happy? I went on to say that marraiges go bad because one of the two in the relationship does not put their 100% into it. He talked about his dad (married 3X) ... this hurt me because I feel he does not have faith in our relationship... then I felt like ok.... if I got pregnant then he would... well buddy, I would not want to marry you nor have your kid if that is the way you preceive it...
Thaaaaaan - I said I think you need to step back and realize what marriage really means.. it is not a ring and a piece of paper... not sure where you thought that up...

Next comes Sat. I am sad, did not sleep all night... he came into the living room and said your sad (oh really?) and I want you to know that I will work on my issues... basically saying to keep you I will marry you ... this made me even more upset..

Then comes Sunday ... I was washing the dishes and turned around and said hey, since we are roomies and I am funding your dream (I pay half the mortguage of HIS house) that I think he needs to contribute more to the household chores.. welp, that got us back into the conversation... He was really upset that I called us roomie but hey, if this is the way we are going to continue to live then what exactly are we?

He said, if I ever decide to get married I would want to marry you.. I said ok, so I string along for the next 5-10 years and one day he decides he wants to marry me - - nice ...really nice.

I told him he should have told me earlier on in the relationship that we were not building a future together .. I would have not moved in with him. He said how would I know back then .... I said you knew you did not want kids back then .. then I said ok 2+ years later you still don;t know... He asked if I felt I was ready to get married now.. I said yes, I am ready... he said because we''ve been together 2+ years does not mean we should automatically hop into marriage.. I said I understand that but it is not on a time limit or that I am getting older or anything like that ... I wanted to marry you.

The I said But I will not marry someone who doesn''t want to marry me and that if you asked me to marry you now after all this I would decline because I would feel like it is out of something other then love... I don''t want that.

So, here we have the 36 year old committment phobic boyfriend who told me 1) - I want to get married then, 2) Don''t want to, to 3) Maybe some day I will want to ..

How do you deyspher this crap?

what''s next? there is none. I guess.
 
I''m so sorry. I think you are doing the right thing--for all that I do believe in tolerance, past a certain point he either needs to committ or stop pussyfooting around. When you know you know, right?

Good luck and we''ll be around .
 
Hi Patchee,

I remember when you first brought all of this up a few months ago and i want to commend you on being strong. Honestly, I know it seems easier said than done but move on. I CAN imagine the pain you feel right now because I went through it. I tried to stay in it for a while but my self-esteem went down the toilet and things became more and more abrasive with him until finally, I was depressed every day.

I agree with those that said, YOU DESERVE BETTER.

You deserve the love you want, not the love you think you can get right now.

I''ll be thinking of you. (((hugs)))
 
Oh Patchee, I am so sorry to hear this!!!! I can''t believe the way he thinks of marriage, and I''m not sure if I would be able to accept a proposal from him after this either.... I think you should try to cool down a little bit and try having the conversation one more time to see if he is able to understand any of the REAL reasons behind marriage once he thinks about it a bit more before you make any final decision. He definitely doesn''t seem to be coming from a good place about it all, but since he would be "willing" to propose to keep you, that does show a high degree of dedication and love for you, even if he doesn''t believe in marriage for marriage''s sake. I hope you can figure out how much of this is his preconceived notions of married life and how much is an actual desire to not be married, and you have the strength to follow through with whichever path will be best for you in the end. I wish you the best of luck, and please remember all the LIWs (and BIWs etc...) will be here for you if you need to talk!!!!
 
Date: 4/24/2006 1:15:16 PM
Author: Patchee
He said a materialist ring and a piece of paper from the state means nothing to him. He sees how people do not take marriage seriously, that people who are married are not all happy. He likes our relationship the way it is, we don''t need a paper to tell us our love.

That''s nice that this means ''nothing'' to him, but he should take your thoughts and feelings into consideration. Sheesh. It obviously means something to you! And the pregnancy comment... well, lets just say that''s just kinda mean.

What is your next step, Patchee?
 
So...my FI said he''d marry me if I got pregnant...when we were 18!! Seriously, it is a little of an odd response from a 36 year old man.

And I agree that it is thoughtless at least, if not intentionally mean.
 
ohh patchee i''m so sorry
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but you do deserve better -- but i know that no one can make it any better (especially here!) but i''m glad the conversation was had now rather than later. it give syou more time to thinka bout what you want, what sacrifices you are willing to make or not make, and move on if that ends up being the case!

your strength is amazing. :)
 
Ok Next step...

I don''t want to be in a relationship where I have no choices... I have no choice here on having kids if I wanted or being married if I wanted to. I need to be smart on my decisions though.

I do love him but my will is so much stronger to love in situations like this... He hurt me without even knowing it with some of his answers to my questions. Things that stapled my heart literally...

I know I am going to have to move on... honeslty, if he said .. I love you & marriage is something I want, just not right now I would have been ok with that. Everyone''s time frame is different and I understand that but all the other not necessary comments pierced my heart.. unforgettable now.

I told him any other women would walk on you today ... he said but your not because we have such a unique relationship (which we do, before this conversation started) ... but LIW little does he know .... I am like other women! I will walk ... because I will not sit around feeling down over this, letting my years fly by, and knowing that he does not want what I want, and if he was to propose... I WOULD NOT say yes... I am so damaged, he caused it...

I will be ok, I am strong, been through more then this in my life but it will pass - like everything else and tomorrow is a new day... thanks for listening to me.... Most of you understand here.. in my world.. I can''t and won''t talk about it with anyone.. I feel like a failure and the common thought of he doesn''t love me enough to marry me...

I will not let myself always be just the girlfriend....
 
Patchee,
I am so sorry you are going through this. I agree with all the others, you deserve better. You deserve to be with someone who wants to be w/ you as much as you want w/them. If he doesn''t truly want the same things as you, then he likely isn''t the one for you. I agree, I don''t think a proposal would mean as much if it felt forced or coerced. He should want to marry you as much as you want to marry him..not just a willingness to marry. That''s not enough and that''s why some marriages fail.
Whatever you decide to do, the support is here for you! I hope you''re able to take some time for you during all of this. You are what is most important!
 
Patchee, I''m sorry you''re going through this.
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You need to go what''s in the best interest of you. He doesn''t want o get married, fine his loss, you have every right to feel that way you do. You seem like you''re a very strong smart person, do not let his ''may one day....'' string you along. If he says that again you should respond with ''fine...when you''re ready let give me a call...MAYBE I''ll be available''
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I have never understood men....well women too.. feelings about marriage just being a piece of paper, and all that other crap. I really think it''s an excuse for people to not take responsiblility being an adult, it''s kind of like (too me) that they are saying ''it''s too much work to make a relationship work, it''s easier for me this way''. I also think it''s funny how these same people think that you (person wanting to get married) is okay with settling with that! Doouble
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You have a long road ahead of you but sooner than you think you''ll realize that you are better off and will be with the person who loves you and wants to same things in life as you do, with you!
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Hi Patchee,

I have a lot of heart growing out to you in this moment, because I feel your pain, and I understand that you''re going through. I had similar conversations with my last ex, and experienced the same trepidation and realization of incompatibility.

I sense from what you''ve written the following:

1. He''s afraid. He''s very afraid of long-term commitment. His exposure to it in the example of his father''s choices. He doesn''t realize that he and his father are two, completely different people. He also doesn''t realize that he is responsible for the outcome of his decisions, and can create a bond with someone he trusts. However, he doesn''t trust himself, cannot trust you enough, to believe in creating a special significance in the concept of marriage, or engagement for that matter. This is his problem, and has absolutely nothing to do with you. After 36 years of learning, he hasn''t created the goal of accomplishing a better understanding of his fear of long-term commitment. For that, is it an injustice to you for him to carry on without being more honest with himself.

2. You deserve better. You deserve a man who will be sensitive to your feelings, your priorities, and communicate his, in the first year of your relationship. There are the adages that one should only have fun, and fly by the seat of their pants until they really have to commit. IMHO, that is a waste of time that could be better spent being happy with someone, rather than arguing over the validity of the images they have of each other, or the changes that are fruitlessly endeavored. There is a list of standards I appended to one of the threads in the LIW group. Any woman is entitled to find a man who can meet (some or all) of these standards who is as personally responsible as she is. You deserve a man whose priority in life is to live a happy one with you.

3. You''ve done your best. You''ve been able to identify the differences between you two, which, IMHO could be overcome, but the bulk of the work is in his area. You know what you want, you have communicated this, and beyond expressing further honesty in your feelings, there isn''t much else you can do. It shouldn''t come as a surprise to him, his feelings, but that is has to you, indicates a severe lack of proactive communication on his part to seek the truth in both your priorities. Perhaps he was along for the ride, but IMHO, you will be better off being with a man who will be more open about his priorities.

4. There are many, many, men available. But this particular one, is not for you. But that''s also okay, because he may not be for anyone, since most women WANT to settle down eventually, have children, NEST. We are predisposed to this. For whatever reason, he is not compatible with the base needs you have, and that is entirely independent of you. Maybe he will regret the loss, or maybe he will come to his senses and realize his fears, but that must all be REGARDLESS of the marriage/engagement argument. He cannot attribute his accomplishments to you, they must be because he is personally cognizant of his true needs. There are many men available who are at that point in their lives, and are less likely to hide this information (for fear of losing their comfort zone with a woman).

5. You have asked yourself the hardest questions, to really find the truth of how you feel in your relationship; both about yourself and the relationship. You''ve been strong enough to realize what he feels, and what your priorities are, as well as the mismatch. That is an incredibly difficult feat to do -- some people remain in that state for YEARS, all the while, not realizing that a better match is wandering around, not realizing they could be happier without settling. It''s unpleasantly easy to remain in a habit in a relationship that isn''t what you want. It''s challenging, but refreshingly difficult to seek out what you want, and have the patience to wait for it.

You are a brave person, and you will find someone who will make you happy; someone who loves you tremendously, and will reciprocate what you give. He will also have the honesty and understanding that you seek, in a long-term marriage.

Hang in there, and be good to yourself.
 
Patchee, you are doing the right thing, and for that I am so proud of you!! You can''t let him think that because you two have a "unique" relationship that means that he doesn''t owe it to you to respect your desires and needs!!!! Please keep reminding yourself that this DOES NOT MEAN that you are a failure, or that he didn''t love you enough!!! This is entirely HIS issue, and you are being smart and strong to realize that you cannot happily coincide with his warped view of marriage and walk away. You can''t change the way he sees the world, so it''s up to you to resolve this in the only way which will ultimately bring you happiness - no matter how difficult that is to see right now - by leaving him. Don''t forget that we''re here for you if you need to talk more!!!
 
Thank you.. thank you!!!

I loved him for years from a far now that he is mine, he truly is not...Weird the way things go for us.. God doesn''t give us anything we can''t handle.

But, just for my own piece of mind ...

I was not wrong in wanting to know just where we are at?
Two years 6 months is not too soon right?
28 Years old is not too young to be talking about marriage, is it?
He brought up something like - feel like your getting old so have to talk about this, run out get married soon... because your getting old..
 
Date: 4/24/2006 2:09:04 PM
Author: Patchee
I was not wrong in wanting to know just where we are at? 100000% JUSTIFIED!!! Everyone deserves to know where they are in a relationship, and most women probably would have started this conversation wayyyy before you did!!!

Two years 6 months is not too soon right? NOT AT ALL!!!!

28 Years old is not too young to be talking about marriage, is it? NO WAY!!!!

He brought up something like - feel like your getting old so have to talk about this, run out get married soon... because your getting old.. GRRRR, I am liking him less and less!!!!
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Whether there is any truth to the biological clock aspect of it all, that is NOT IN ANY WAY AN APPROPRIATE THING TO SAY!!!! Also, you're NINE years younger than him, right?? How is he calling YOU old??????
ETA: That is to say...he is implying that that is the ONLY reason you're bringing up these ridiculous ideas about marriage and commitment because you're getting old, which is completely belittling the fact that YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT to (a) know where your relationship is headed and (b) BE in a relationship with someone who wants the same end goal as you!!!! Just reducing that to age is implying that you have no legitimate reason for feeling the way you do and bringing this up, which is COMPLETELY WRONG!!!!!
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Okay, sorry, I am getting worked up now, but I am now more than ever convinced that you are doing the right thing, Patchee!! Be strong and stand up for what is best for you, and don't let him bully you into thinking that anything you're saying/asking isn't completely valid and reasonable!!!!!!
 
Patchee yuo were totally in the right to bring this stuff up. I had the 'serious' convo with my guy after a year and a half. I said that is enough time to KNOW because having been around alot of people in relationships and been in a few of my own, I really feel like people know within 2 years from time spent with that person, their family etc. That is a good amount of time to know enough about them to know if you feel like you can see yourself with them in the future. I feel like if people say they don't know within 2 years, they are actually just lying to themselves or each other.

So I told him at 1.5years...I want you to know one way or another, within 6 months. I don't think that's unreasonable but FYI I will leave if you don't know then OR you decide you aren't sure etc. I just can't hang around hoping that you figure things out and it goes in my favor. That's not me, I have seen too many gals become bitter about the timeline etc and it can ruin an otherwise good relationship. So he knew I was serious. I also told him look it will be VERY HARD for me to do what I say but I will and I will be okay in the end. So figure things out.

You were not unreasonable in your timeframe to wait, to ask, age IS a factor...Greg knew I wanted to find the right person, settle down etc and not be too old when doing it, and I told him if it wasn't going to be with him then I had to move on. OF course I told him I HOPED it would be with him because I really did feel like we had what it takes, but you can't convince someone what you feel is true etc.

It's tough for children of divorced families, many people don't take marriage seriously and it can scar their kids...sounds like he does have some issues, maybe after you leave or move on he he will be prompted to work on things and MAYBE he will change. Or maybe not, but you can't bank on that or hope for it...do what it takes to work things out FOR YOU and take care of yourself. I believe the cards will fall into place if you just stay true to your own heart.
 
You are neither "too young" to talk about the future with him nor is it "too soon" to do so. A comment like this from him is simply his fear talking. After 2+ years you have every right to discuss the future of your relationship. It is his loss that he does not want to build a future with you. The fact that he would make a comment about marriage being "the thing to do" when you are "old" just shows that he has a view of marriage that is distorted by his experiences and background. He obviously has a lot of work to do before he is able to seriously commit to a future with a woman --- especially in the context of marriage. I truly believe you are doing the right thing by asking for and expecting the best for yourself. Take care!
 
Date: 4/24/2006 2:12:54 PM
Author: albicocca
Date: 4/24/2006 2:09:04 PM

Author: Patchee

I was not wrong in wanting to know just where we are at? 100000% JUSTIFIED!!! Everyone deserves to know where they are in a relationship, and most women probably would have started this conversation wayyyy before you did!!!


Two years 6 months is not too soon right? NOT AT ALL!!!!


28 Years old is not too young to be talking about marriage, is it? NO WAY!!!!


He brought up something like - feel like your getting old so have to talk about this, run out get married soon... because your getting old.. GRRRR, I am liking him less and less!!!!
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Whether there is any truth to the biological clock aspect of it all, that is NOT IN ANY WAY AN APPROPRIATE THING TO SAY!!!! Also, you''re NINE years younger than him, right?? How is he calling YOU old??????

ETA: That is to say...he is implying that that is the ONLY reason you''re bringing up these ridiculous ideas about marriage and commitment because you''re getting old, which is completely belittling the fact that YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT to (a) know where your relationship is headed and (b) BE in a relationship with someone who wants the same end goal as you!!!! Just reducing that to age is implying that you have no legitimate reason for feeling the way you do and bringing this up, which is COMPLETELY WRONG!!!!!
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Okay, sorry, I am getting worked up now, but I am now more than ever convinced that you are doing the right thing, Patchee!! Be strong and stand up for what is best for you, and don''t let him bully you into thinking that anything you''re saying/asking isn''t completely valid and reasonable!!!!!!


AIIGHHH!!
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I actually HATE him! I get a solid misogynst vibe from some of his "comments". And - I actually fear that he knows all too well that you "loved him from afar" and believes he can do whatever he pleases & that you will stay. He may think & say he loves you - but he definately is not RESPECTING YOU (and the dynamic of that is very hard to change). His attitude seems arrogant, manipulative and condescending. When I hear guys talk about "women worrying about getting old" ... I automatically think they''re talking about their OWN attitudes. Like they''re actually the ones that will leave for a younger woman, when it suits them. Like "Hey WOMEN, you SHOULD worry!". Like he feels your "value" is going downward so you better get married quick!
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Oh man - I hope you find the strength to do what''s right for you!
 
I can''t even say how sorry I am that this is happening. I won''t say I know exactly how you feel, but I know the pain when someone doesn''t want what you want. If you choose to leave the situation, it will hurt- true, but less then having the years pass, knowing that you will never have ''all'' of him. That level of resentment will suck you dry inside.

I know in a thread a long time ago I said that men do not lie about things like this. He said what he meant and 90% of the time, no amount of ''giving him time to warm up to it'' or ''working on getting himself ready for it'' works. He has a right to have a domestic partner set up. You have a right to fulfilling mariage.

I''ve always wondered too about ''it''s just a piece of paper''. No it isn''t. It means I''m proud to stand up before all and devote my life to you, no matter what. Saying it''s just paper say ''I''m devoted, but not enough to be here through it all, I want to have an out just in case''.

Someone here quoted long ago- if it''s just a piece of paper, then signing one shouldn''t be a big deal.
 
28 Years old is not too young to be talking about marriage, is it?

No, it is not. Marriage represents something significant to anyone, at any age. Lots of PSers here are between 20-28, and already engaged or married. That's not to argue in favor of marrage before 28, but I'm pointing out the statistic I've observed on PS, here. However, if you feel comfortable discussing it, and he doesn't, that's not your problem. It's his. And his, alone.

He brought up something like - feel like your getting old so have to talk about this, run out get married soon... because your getting old..

Wrong. He is attacking you because he has put up his defense mechanism to cope with eventual loss of your relationship -- a personal habit of dishonesty and fear that he has cultivated in himself; a comfort zone he doesn't wish to let go of. He is laying blame on you for the eventual demise of the relationship, such that when he is alone, and continuing his fear of being responsible for his emotions and honest with the personalities in the relationship, he will be able to "chalk up the end of this relationship to her rushing into marriage." It is an effectively negative response to feeling insecure about his needs, not respecting your needs, and prioritizing his needs above the best interests of the relationship.

Were he a mature person, he would gain perspective from an objective understanding, feelings aside, of the relationship and the merits of both your needs. You want a man who will be unafraid to speak of his fears and desires. He wants a woman who will suppress her honesty, and continue behaving like the child he is acting out. Men and women are inherently different in how they think, and how willing they are to face their fears. Women are more willing to tear through their emotional spectrum, while men suppress, and seek to evade their emotions, for fear of what they will realize.

Don't doubt your feelings or needs. If you have been feeling this way for sometime, you are realizing the truth in the consistency of your feelings.

Again, I had this experience in my last relationship, while living abroad, and having given up my life in the states. I realized after 2 years, my ex was not mentally ready for a matured commitment, let alone a marriage. And I was not willing to sacrifice more of my happiness for the selfish, indulgent, and ridiculous choices he lived out of fear. Inherently, he was a misogynist, and I mustered all the strength I could, to emancipate myself from that life, move back to the states, find a job, an apartment, a car, and re-establish the roots I left behind 2 years prior. It is the hardest thing to eject yourself from the comfort (albeit depressing and sad) of that life, but you gain the most strength from following your heart.
 
Date: 4/24/2006 1:50:41 PM
Author: Patchee
I told him any other women would walk on you today ... he said but your not because we have such a unique relationship

In this case, I think "UNIQUE" means to him =

a) you don''t demand much of me & I like it that way
b) you love me more than I love you & have for years ... therefore, won''t dare bail
c) you''re not like most women - whom I hate

BE STRONG. Believe what he is telling you. KNOW that if you did get pregnant & he married you -- that would be an even bigger disaster for everyone involved. Like miraculously he''d actually want to be married then ... or want a kid. PUH-Leeze. Charlie Sheen, anyone?? He''d change his tune real quick to "You trapped me" & "B****h".

I know this is hard to hear & hard to know & hard to come to terms with. You will be better off in the long run. And you will find someone who loves you AND wants the things you do in life AND respects you enough not to belittle your emotions & needs.

HUGS
 
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