I think I am ready to buy my first engagement ring, let me know if I really am. (MY DIAMOND SPECS)

[esumsea]

Hello Everyone!
This is my first post and I would trully GREATLY APPRECIATE

any help, comments, suggestions, criticism (constructive hopefully) or advice that any of you will offer. Please help an indecisive fastedious person bording on OCD make a decision He will be comfortable for the rest of his life. (Is that possible?) I have read books and info on this site. I have shopped the downtown Miami diamond wholesalers. I hae used price scope and this is what I am looking for

I have put reasoning behindspecs)

Shape: Emerald
Carat: Minimum .88 (Preferred 1.1 or above)
Color: D - F4 (Preferred E) NO Florescence NO COLOR ENHANCEMENT please run a colorimeter tape
Symmetry: Excellent to very good (Symmetry is very important in Emeralds because it has less facets, so the most brilliance you can get from the symmetry the better)
Cut: Minimum Class 2a Very Good including all angles from best to worst NO WARPING! (Preferred class 1 Premium Cut)
-Table: 58 to 64% (the lower the better)
-Crown Angle: 32-35 degrees
-Crown Height: 11.5 – 16.2 %
-Pavillion Angle: (43.5 – 45.5) For Emerald 43.3-46.9 degrees is acceptable, 45:05 is perfect
-Pavillion Depth: 47.5-53.1%
***Measure all angles or ask minimum maximum pavilion and crown angles***
-Total Depth: 58 to 62% (58.5 to 61 % Preferred)Emeralds can be cut shallower with no ill effects. The reason I am going shallow is because that makes the other portions of the diamond (Length Width) larger. In addition, my girlfriend does not like rings that sit high.
-Length to Width Ratio (Proportion): 1.35 – 1.45 I want to avoid the bow tie effect Cuellar reports that occurs with Emerald cutts with proportions less than 1.30 and greater than 1.75. My girlfriend desires a more square emerald so that is why I am sticking in the low range. You may be thinking "why not an Asscher cut?" Because they are cut deeper and therefore look smaller, and are generally less available.
-Girdle: Slightly thin to Medium to slightly thick (Chalk line appearance is too thick) I do not want a thin girdle because they are fragile
-No Cutlet
Clarity: Minimum VS1 (Preferred VVSI2). NO CLARITY ENHANCEMENT
-Polish:Very good to excellent
No chips, scratches, fractures, extra facets, bearding, carbon or feathers.

-Make sure seller knows the diamond will be appraised by third party.
-Must have lifetime breakage and money back and/or trade up guarantee
-No lab reports over six months old.
-A bonding document guaranteeing the diamond is 100 % natural and not treated.

OK!

So here is where you guys let me know what you think. Are any of my specs off? Are any too stringent? Am I giving to much importance to any quality of the stone? Am I missing something? What should I expect to pay for this stone? Should I buy locally or from pricescope? Where should I get a TRUSTWORTHY appriasal or diamond grading?
Thanks for your time.
Regards,
Mario

 

[strmrdr]

a few things...
Breakage guarantee and bonding are dumb ideas and Fred is an idiot.
Private insurance covering the entire ring and the diamond is smart.
Most of the best ones on the market are going too be deeper than that.
Limiting the grading report too 6 months is a needless restriction.

" bow tie effect Cuellar reports that occurs with Emerald cutts with proportions less than 1.30 and greater than 1.75. " <--- part of why he is an idiot. That is bad info. I have seen stones on both sides of those numbers with no bow ties, bow ties are caused by angle combos period.

"45:05 is perfect" <-- where did you get that? a 45.05 pavilion angle is meaningless. Sounds like another Fred.

Symmetry: Excellent to very good <-- not a bad thing but lab symmetry has little too do with brightness. Optical symmetry on the other hand is important but the labs don''t grade it.

 

[strmrdr]

also feathers are fine for inclusions as long as they aren''t large open ones or open too the crown.

 

[strmrdr]

few other points...
Gia or AGS grading report.
There are serveral appraisers posting here that I trust.
Richard Sherwood
Dave Atlas aka oldminer
Neil aka denverappraiser
Jeff aka Modified Brilliant

 

[musey]

lol strm, you don''t tiptoe around anything!

 

[strmrdr]

colorimeter - is fine if the vendor has one but if you have the lab report and an appraiser is going too look it over then its pretty redundant. It isnt that accurate on some types of stones.
Only PS vendor I know of who has one is Good Old Gold who also happens to be an excellent source for EC''s and will do videos also for clients.

The biggest thing you need is pictures if buying online(regular,ASET and or IS).
EC''s can not be bought by the numbers.

 

[esumsea]

Wow. Thanks strmrdr. Let me let this soak in and I will respond later (I am with my girlfriend now and just sneaked back to see if I had any responces. Obviously, I don''t want her to catch me on this site

.

That is a beautiful Asscher, Musey. Simply amazing. I considered going with an asscher first, but they are cut much deeper.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I agree with Storm and would also suggest contacting Jonathan at Good Old Gold. He can help you learn what the parameters need to be in a good EC and he can also send you video of one if he finds one you like. His diamonds will always be GIA or AGS certified, so you don''t need some additional piece of paper guaranteeing the stone is natural. And you buy personal insurance so your ring is covered for all kinds of loss. I''d never overpay for a diamond in order to get some jewelry store "breakage" policy!

 

[Hest88]

I'm just going to comment on a few things. I think you've gotten some pretty good advice already.

-Total Depth: 58 to 62% (58.5 to 61 % Preferred)Emeralds can be cut shallower with no ill effects. The reason I am going shallow is because that makes the other portions of the diamond (Length Width) larger. In addition, my girlfriend does not like rings that sit high.

Honestly, I think it would be a dreadful mistake to opt for an EC that's too shallow. The lovely thing about a well cut EC is the mesmerizing play of light and shadow and if you get a stone that's too flat you'll just have something glassy. What a waste considering how careful you're being about everything else. I'd stay b/t 60-65%. A diamond is a teeny thing (generally) and the extra depth is NOT going to make your GF's diamond sit high.

-Length to Width Ratio (Proportion): 1.35 – 1.45 I want to avoid the bow tie effect Cuellar reports that occurs with Emerald cutts with proportions less than 1.30 and greater than 1.75.

A bowtie effect is not something you need to worry about with emerald cuts. (Geez, Fred Cuellar!)

-Make sure seller knows the diamond will be appraised by third party.

-Must have lifetime breakage and money back and/or trade up guarantee

-No lab reports over six months old.

-A bonding document guaranteeing the diamond is 100 % natural and not treated.

Yeah, I think these are too stringent. Personally, I wouldn't mind a report over 6 months old, especially from someone I trusted. Also, that same report from AGS or GIA would also take care of the last point. Also, if you're buying from someone like Jonathan who will be selling a stone after a gazillion other reports I personally don't think it's worth it to then send it out again to a third party. I can certainly understand, though, that you may need the extra peace of mind.

 

[esumsea]

Let me address some of the comments given now that I have driven my girlfriend home (yep she holds to her guns).

First off, to all, thanks for the advice!

Secondly, I am surprised Cuellar is so porrly regarded, but as a noob I HAVE to go with the predominant sentiment. His book seemed well written, informative and was highly recommended, but I guess I can attribute that to marketing. The thing I liked the most was that he detailed specs on all types of cuts. For some reason he reports that the best depth percentages are 56-61 % for most round cuts and up to 65% for emeralds.

Thirdly,OK, so private insurance is the way to go, however, won''t I need to have the stone appraised by their appraiser? Do you have any suggestions on a carrier?

Fourth, strmdrm, what does ASET or IS mean? And are you sure proportions lower than 1.30 (my girlfriend actually likes the 1.2 to 1.3 range (I found out what she like WAAAY in advance, in case you are wondering)) will not produce a bow tie if other anges are right? What is the best pic to catch a bow tie, straight down at the diamond? Also, I have seen some optical photography at a graders web site do sellers offer these? Lastly, I guess I will let feathers go as long as they fit what you said.


Fifth, thanks Hest 88, I guess you confirm strmdrm''s assertion that EC''s below 1.30 wont have bow ties. I don''t understand why Cuellar would include it in his book if there was no basis for this belief. I wonder where it came from and where it went awry. On your suggestion maybe I will raise my depth percentage threshold to 60% to 63% but I think the length and width are noticed more when non educated people check out a diamond, as far as judging it size (weight/carat).

All in all, some good info. I am prepared to continue to learn for this a decision and rock I will hopefully have to live with for a looong time. Its best to make the right decision.

To end, and maybe this should be a new thread, can I get your opinions on the differences, benefits, good points and bad points of EC''s versus Asscher cuts?

Of course, I anxiously await any input on the original and still very much the main topic, my specs above.

Again, thanks to al who have commentedl!!!

Regards,
Mario

I will call Jonathan, but his selection seems limited.

 

[strmrdr]

Do a forum search on Cuellar and you will see why he isnt well liked.
It has been covered in the past.
No vendor is going too have a ton of them in stock and will have too call them in.
GOG will call 2 in for free.
No worries with a 1.2 to 1.3 if your vendor can find some.
Iv seen one that was well cut that was around 1.2 and liked it a lot.
ASET is the AGS diamond performance grading tool.
IS is the ideal-scope develped by our own Garry Holloway.
Info is here: http://www.ideal-scope.com/

info on ASET and step cuts here:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/asschers-and-aset-a-sneak-peek.35080/

 

[stebbo]

Date: 9/9/2007 7:17:40 AM
Author: esumsea

Secondly, I am surprised Cuellar is so poorly regarded, ... His book seemed well written ....

I do agree, his book is very well written and very convincing to the newbie. It was my first read on the subject and it never even crossed my mind it was a marketing job. Now I can''t work out whether to shelve it amongst my marketing books or fiction.

I think I am ready to buy my first engagement ring

How many engagement rings are you thinking of buying?

 

[Hest88]

Esumsea, I''m glad you''re doing your homework. First off, thoroughly read all the info in the "Knowledge" drop-down menu. There''s a ton of info there that Fred''s book won''t be able to touch. It will, though, help you get more of a grasp of cut parameters.

Also, I know some people refer to the darker areas in ECs as "bowties" but I really don''t think they compare to the real bowties found in pears, marquises, hearts, and ovals. That''s more important, though, is not to just think "bowties are bad" but to understand what bowties are, learn how to recognize them, and figure out why a prominent bowtie is undesirable. Jonathan has a section here that could help:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/classic.php?page=shapetips.htm

As for the pros and cons of square emeralds (generic asschers) over rectangular ECs? For one it''s personal preference. I''m actually someone who swoons over rect ECs and doesn''t love square ECs all that much. I *admire* them but they don''t make my heard beat faster the way a rectangular EC does. I can''t explain it. It *is* though, in some ways harder to pinpoint a good asscher than an EC. For one you have to decide if you just want a square EC or one that has the pronounced windmill effect that mimics something like a Royal Asscher.

 

[esumsea]

I think I am ready to buy my first engagement ring

How many engagement rings are you thinking of buying?

Good one Stebbo. I was just saying this was my first marriage, and hopefully last, but I think you knew that.

I will do the search. I am glad I read the book, but I think I will put less weight on the opinions stated in it. As aformentioned, I knew this would not be a quick purchase. I am pretty methodical and realize there is alot more to learn. I think it is worth it and I believe this forum will provide me a more broad understanding of diamond buying. I look foward to my, ahem, inculcation.

 

[Gwyn]

Date: 9/9/2007 8:37:35 AM
Author: stebbo

Date: 9/9/2007 7:17:40 AM
Author: esumsea

Secondly, I am surprised Cuellar is so poorly regarded, ... His book seemed well written ....

I do agree, his book is very well written and very convincing to the newbie. It was my first read on the subject and it never even crossed my mind it was a marketing job. Now I can''t work out whether to shelve it amongst my marketing books or fiction.

I think I am ready to buy my first engagement ring

How many engagement rings are you thinking of buying?

LOL that is exactly what I was thinking when I read the name of the thread. I was going to comment just now but I saw you beat me to it.

My advice, if you refer to it as your first (implying that there will be others) then you are probably not ready.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/9/2007 8:37:35 AM
Author: stebbo

How many engagement rings are you thinking of buying?

Iv given wifey2b 2 so far and would like too a third.
but then im wierd LOL

 

[neatfreak]

First, welcome to PS! Second, listen to Storm, he knows what he is talking about. And third, Fred is nothing more than a very slick salesman. Don''t believe most of what he says...a lot of it is BS.

 

[esumsea]

Date: 9/9/2007 3:27:15 PM
Author: Hest88
Esumsea, I''m glad you''re doing your homework.

Also, I know some people refer to the darker areas in ECs as ''bowties'' but I really don''t think they compare to the real bowties found in pears, marquises, hearts, and ovals.

As for the pros and cons of square emeralds (generic asschers) over rectangular ECs? For one it''s personal preference. I''m actually someone who swoons over rect ECs and doesn''t love square ECs all that much. I *admire* them but they don''t make my heard beat faster the way a rectangular EC does. I can''t explain it. It *is* though, in some ways harder to pinpoint a good asscher than an EC. For one you have to decide if you just want a square EC or one that has the pronounced windmill effect that mimics something like a Royal Asscher.

Thanks Hest88, I am trying to do the best I can as far as research.

I checked out that link and it was informative, though I must say ALOT of it parallels what Fred says, especifically about the 1.30 to 1.75 proportion.

As far as your comments about ECs and Asschers, I thought (obviously erroniously) that Asschers where just square emerald cuts. Can you or someone else elaborate on the differences and ablout this windmill effect?

It seems that Johnathan is well regarded here, and I will give him a call. However, his prices do seem to be a little higher for the same quality stone as the others I find at pricescope.

 

[esumsea]

Anybody have any other comments on my proportions or can anyone offer any other information of links to the ideal proportion ranges for emerald and/or asscher cuts?
Let me know.
Regards,
Mario

 

[strmrdr]

keel(long) vs pointed/squarish culet is the biggest difference between EC and SE/asscher
There are square ECs out there that some call asschers, its in dispute if they are or not.
It also effects the size and shape of the windmills with the asscher having bigger ones in general.

 

[strmrdr]

squarish emerald cut..1.06 ratio

 

[strmrdr]

SE/asscher

 

[strmrdr]

1.3 ratio, note these aren''t optimised and are virtual models with perfect optical symmetry. They are for educational use only.

 

[strmrdr]

also wanted too note that these are different weights and all are the same width.
1.5 ratio

 

[Hest88]

Date: 9/9/2007 11:18:43 PM
Author: esumsea
I checked out that link and it was informative, though I must say ALOT of it parallels what Fred says, especifically about the 1.30 to 1.75 proportion.

Well, no. It talks about preferred proportions, but not preferred proportions and bowties.

However, his prices do seem to be a little higher for the same quality stone as the others I find at pricescope.

Yes, but you're in part paying for all the extra data he's giving you up front. It's the time, money, and energy he's giving you right on his Web site to allow you to weed out stones you don't want before you even pick up the phone. And he's still much more reasonable compared to many local B&Ms who don't you give you any data.

Can you or someone else elaborate on the differences and ablout this windmill effect?

Here's an old picture I saved. The one on the far left is an extreme example of a very square EC. The one in the center is one with the nice cut corners that gives a nice "asscher" look. The one on the far right is the branded Royal Asscher with extra facets. So, if you just look at the difference between the two on the left you'll see how the one on the far left has nothing of the pinwheel effect that we refer to when we say a stone has pronounced windmills.

 

[strmrdr]

here is a 2 ratio not seen in diamonds much but common is some gemstones.
(diamond rough usualy isnt shaped to cut these from it)

 

[stebbo]

Date: 9/9/2007 9:40:26 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/9/2007 8:37:35 AM

Author: stebbo


How many engagement rings are you thinking of buying?

Iv given wifey2b 2 so far and would like too a third.

but then im wierd LOL

She always be a wifey2b if you keep on buying her engagement rings...

I''m the opposite - 2 wives, only 1 engagement ring. They each wear it for a week.

 

[find45di2]

esumsea, I replied to your post about who I purchased my stone from.

 

[esumsea]

Thanks for the indo strmrdr.

I really appreciate you taking the time. I have been reading some past threads on this forum on Asschers and EC''s and am really learning alot. I am starting to get a better grasp on what to look for. I think I am starting to prefer the asschers and now I can show my girlfriend the difference and see which one she likes better. (I gotta figure out how to do that without completely tipping my hand)
Going through these threads, I see that you and Hest88 have some history on this subject. It is great that I can opinion from both of you. I even see you posted your suggested specs for asscher cuts. What a great resource this site is. For those interested, just search this is for "asscher," but here are two good ones I have found in my limited searching:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/asscher-square-emerald-quest.21147/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/all-about-asschers.24689/

Anyway, I will digest some of what I have read and, I am sure, will return with more questions. So goes the journey.

Also, what do you think of the asscher on Musey''s Avatar?

Regards,
Mario

 

[strmrdr]

lol yea some history.
Sometimes we agree sometimes not but we both love kicken asschers.
Hest88 is good people and someone I value.
It also took me a while to correlate all the reports and images with the diamonds themselves it wasn't something that happened overnight.
I like too think I'm better at it now than then.

For example the all red IS, it sometimes happens that the angles of the asscher interact with angles of the IS too produce it.
Now I ignore it and look at the rest of the data and pictures.
I can reproduce it in diamcalc but cant explain it too my satisfaction.