I need some expert advice

[narly_1]

Hello folks,

First, let me thank many of you here who have helped me in the past. I have enjoyed reading all the posts and answers and realized that you folks are indeed very frank and have some integrity about yourselves. Your posts helped me realize what a big mistake I had made recently in buying a ring off the web. No worries, I got most of my money back from the company in NYC that sold it to me. It was terrifying to think of what I had done. But God was with me and I came out of that relatively unscathed.

I am not here to crticize them for that. I am, however, here to seek some advice.

I am getting ready to pop the question to the love of my life and have the opportunity to buy a GIA certified stone in India (I have a relative bringing it to me next week). I am fortunate that I will get to see the stone before paying for it and, if not satisfied, I can return it.

I have seen the scan of the cert. It was certified in Feb 2007 by GIA. It is a round, 1.70ct, F, VVS2. It has excellent cut and the stone has a pinpoint and a needle in the map on the GIA certificate.

It is about 7.6mm in dia and (I will have to confirm this since I dont have the cert in front of me) it is about 5.1mm in depth. After reading a lot of the blogs here, I am to believe that a table of 56 to 59% is considered good. This stone has a 63% table. It has a "spready" look from what I can imagine. Will this affect the brightness or value?

Now for the value. I am blessed because a family friend is offering this stone. I will pay $14K for it.

Please tell me if this will be a good investment?

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[Cleo]

I am no expert by any means... but I will try and offer a helpful suggestion for you.

I am sorry about your previous bad experience by the way, and I''m glad that you were able to recover at least most of your money.

With regard to the diamond, if you can get hold of the GIA certificate number, you can look up the data on it here. You will need the weight of the stone in cts (1.70) and the certificate number.

Once you have this, you can put the stone''s dimensions into the Holloway Cut Advisor . This is a brilliant tool for weeding out stones which don''t perform as well as others in terms of Light Return, Fire & Scintillation. The HCA isn''t so much a tool for selecting diamonds... more of a tool for rejecting stones. (Read the tutorial on the tool for full information).

Putting the numbers into the HCA will give you an idea of the likely performance of the diamond and help you decide whether to consider it or not.

x x x

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/20/2008 9:35:26 PM
Author:narly_1
Hello folks,

First, let me thank many of you here who have helped me in the past. I have enjoyed reading all the posts and answers and realized that you folks are indeed very frank and have some integrity about yourselves. Your posts helped me realize what a big mistake I had made recently in buying a ring off the web. No worries, I got most of my money back from the company in NYC that sold it to me. It was terrifying to think of what I had done. But God was with me and I came out of that relatively unscathed.

I am not here to crticize them for that. I am, however, here to seek some advice.

I am getting ready to pop the question to the love of my life and have the opportunity to buy a GIA certified stone in India (I have a relative bringing it to me next week). I am fortunate that I will get to see the stone before paying for it and, if not satisfied, I can return it.

I have seen the scan of the cert. It was certified in Feb 2007 by GIA. It is a round, 1.70ct, F, VVS2. It has excellent cut and the stone has a pinpoint and a needle in the map on the GIA certificate.

It is about 7.6mm in dia and (I will have to confirm this since I dont have the cert in front of me) it is about 5.1mm in depth. After reading a lot of the blogs here, I am to believe that a table of 56 to 59% is considered good. This stone has a 63% table. It has a 'spready' look from what I can imagine. Will this affect the brightness or value?

Now for the value. I am blessed because a family friend is offering this stone. I will pay $14K for it.

Please tell me if this will be a good investment?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Welcome Narly!

You can get an idea of prices using the search tool at the top of the page, bear in mind that prices online may be lower than those of a jeweller.

It is hard to say how this diamond will look, a 63% table is considered quite large by Pricescope standards, we tend to see more of 54- 57% generally and also some of the best cut diamonds available, what we call superideals. It depends on what you want, the diamond you mention from the limited info may look quite large and be white and sparkly, but it may not have a lot of spectral light or fire, due to the large table for one thing. The crown and pavillion angles are crucial to determine how a diamond returns light, I should imagine this diamond is shallow in the crown angle department possibly. Also I take it that you prefer an F VVS for colour and clarity? You could drop these and still have a very white and clean diamond, but this is a personal preference.

I think all you can do is to see what you think of this diamond when you get it. Take your time, and check it out in as many different lights as you possibly can to make sure it pleases you. You could get a better cut diamond certainly, but it depends on what you want.

Also you mention this diamond being a possible good investment. From a financial point of view, very few diamonds are ever a good investment, you are often lucky to get back 50% of what you paid if you try to sell it, or even can sell it. So it is more a case of whether this diamond will be a good investment and beautiful representation of the promise you make to each other, rather than any safe financial haven, as unfortunately very few diamonds are.

I hope this helps.

 

[narly_1]

Thanks for the ongoing help. I will bring the scanned copy home and use the HCA. I will also type the values in for you all. Bless u all for the ongoing help.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/21/2008 7:21:26 AM
Author: narly_1
Thanks for the ongoing help. I will bring the scanned copy home and use the HCA. I will also type the values in for you all. Bless u all for the ongoing help.

We look forward to helping you in any way we can narly!

 

[Lorelei]

Also have you considered buying a diamond online? You could find a beautifully cut diamond in this way and we would also be pleased to help you find one with better proportions and guaranteed sparkle!

 

[Ellen]

I posted this in your other thread. It will help keep confusion down if you only make one per topic.

Hi narly,

First, a diamond is not a good "investment", you''ll never get close to what you paid for it. Maybe 30-50% if you''re lucky. So let''s not think in those terms. Let''s think about getting a really well cut diamond for your gal.

Looking at comperable stones on the search, they are going for roughly 20,000 dollars. And online stones don''t have a huge mark up, so something seems off here with your "family friend" discount. And to be honest, we rarely see this kind of situation turn out well. Usually, the buyer is not happy with the "deal" they got. So I would highly recommend not going this route.

Also, 63 is too large for a table. You want to stay at 54-58 ish. And that high of clarity is really not necessary, unless it''s just for personal reasons.

I/we would love to help you find a great stone online, if you''d like us too.

 

[narly_1]

Wow, thanks for all the help I am getting here. I feel like its Sunday and I am at Church....group hug! I am sorry about the multiple post. It was a honest mistake by a "first time post-er".

The GIA cert number is 15737950.

The cut grade is Very Good. The Polish and Symmetry is Excellent. No fluorescence.

The dimensions are 7.62 x 7.66 x 4.74 mm.

I have "cut out" the proportion diagram and attached it to this post. Please take some time and review it and advise me.

I bought a diamond ring on the web. It was "certified" and had a center stone that was "supposed" to be 2.35ct, F, VS2 and was set in an eternity band of 18 diamonds, F, VS2, 0.12ct each. That gave me a whopper ring of about 4.6ct! The ring came in and I could not stop looking at it. It "faced up" beautifully. Then I took it to a local jeweller. It was more like an SI2. And, I believe I was sold a "brown diamond" that was cut so well that it was brilliant. Amazingly, the people at the mall stores were gawking at it. The manager at one of the very famous mall diamond stores was amazed! However, the old timey jeweller in my old timey town showed me how to look at the side of the stone to determine color. I probably had a J, K or lower color! But I could have sworn, looking at it from the top, it was an F color! Worse still, I paid $14K for that stone and ring. I was hearbroken but thankfully American Express helped me and I got all but $95 back.

Thus, I am "gun-shy" about buying on the net.

My budget: $19K (She deserves 100 times more, but this is all I can afford at this time)

My desire: Brilliant round, 2ct stone, with at least 2ct in the mount. She jokingly told me one day that she hoped to get 4cts for her engagement. Her whim is my command.

I really was heartbroken when I had to return the ring to Shenoa but they were gracious to take it back.

The family friend has the diamond in India listed for $19,000. My "price'' is a huge favor. However, I ask that you all please look at the specs and advise.

God bless you all.

 

[Ellen]

narly, seeing the angles on this diamond, it is an emphatic no. They are not compatible.

Listen, I understand your apprehension of buying online, but if you search this site on Shenoah, you'll know you're not the only one to get taken by them. They are a big no no.

If you buy from reputable vendors, which WE can tell you who are, you will end up with a killer diamond. I promise you.

Let us know if you'd like us to look. You said your budget was 19000.00 Is that for the setting AND diamond? Does she want more than a solitaire? Give us as many details as you can, if you'd like to go this route. And one last thing. You most likely WON'T get as big a ct. weight for your budget, because you really do get what you pay for (so go with someone who has a good upgrade policy). But almost every woman on here will say they'd rather have a smaller, well cut stone, than a bigger notsohot one.

Here's the diagram.

http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/files/Diamond%20diagram.pdf

 

[Lorelei]

Narly, many have bought from Pricescope vendors such as Good old Gold, Whiteflash, James Allen etc with great results and I can assure you that these vendors have the highest standards of integrity with the way they do business - but it depends on your comfort level.

You learn something every day, I didn't know you could click on a file and do that! I just checked the attached file and have to say that I would not want to buy this diamond, it is very likely it will leak light and not be a good performer.

I am so sorry about what happened with the other ring, but I am glad it was all sorted out for you in the end. Of course we will be pleased to look at the specs of the diamond you are interested in and help you in any way possible.

This is the thing. Here on Pricescope, we are all about the cut of a diamond, as it is this which gives it it's beauty. We mostly see what are called superideal diamonds, which are cut to the most exacting standards for unbeatable light performance ( sparkle). We also try to help those who perhaps don't want a diamond cut to such strict standards, but want what we call a fine make of stone, which basically means it is a well cut diamond, but not cut to such a supertight degree as the superideal. Now as all we have to go on are numbers and proportions, sometimes images such as Idealscope, photos etc, we have to try to help evaluate each diamond very often on the numbers alone. Those of us who have been doing this for a while in a non professional capacity, know that there are proven combinations of numbers for a round diamond, which will result in more or less guaranteed top performance. Also for those who want the fine make of diamond, there are numbers which can still result in a good looking rock outside of the normal tight ranges.

Once you start getting into tables in the early to mid sixties and the possible angle combinations that might result from this, it is far less easy to guess whether the diamond in question might be a good looking stone or not. Some diamonds are cut for weight in order to hit certain ' magic weights' as they are easier to sell. In some instances the cutters may have to choose to leave weight on certain areas of the diamond and still produce a somewhat attractive diamond, in order to make the best profit from that stone. This can result in the cut quality being somewhat sacrificed in order to do this.

So it depends on the buyer. Plenty of people in the non PS world are very happy to have an F VVS diamond for example and could not care less about the numbers, provided the diamond sparkles at times, the quality of the cut never occurs to them. Here it is the main thing we try to help with. So it really depends on what matters to you most, but you can do FAR better than the diamond you are considering.

 

[mrssalvo]

please listen to ellen and lorelei and stay clear of that diamond. Not a good deal nor a good diamond IMO. I too am sorry for your bad experience with shenoa but like ellen said, if you do a search here, you''ll find you are not the only one and that is one company I would never buy from. There are many reputable vendors that participate here that have great return policy''s, upgrade policy''s and sell very high quality diamonds at great pricing. You''ve got an amazing budget and we can definitely help you put together an amazing ring that will blow your gals socks off.

 

[Cleo]

Hello

I'm sorry if this is disappointing for you. Personally, I would certainly take Ellen & Lorelei's advice and not buy any diamond which they advised against.

You have a great budget, and I thought you might like to see this amazing stone, which will still leave money left over to make a spectacular ring!

You have a very lucky lady.

x x x

 

[narly_1]

I could not find any diamond on many of the websites that I went on that were priced at $14K for a 1.7ct, VVS2, F color. However, I did not know the cut quality was so different on the one I am considering. As a consumer, when I see a GIA cert that says Cut grade is Very Good, and the polish and symmetry is excellent, then I think I have found a good stone.

If I was to not take the purist approach, would this stone still be worth the money at $14K?

Also, here are some specs on a princess cut that I have found. The stone is a whopper (with fries and a med drink)...but I have never considered princess cuts. The ring is available in a nearby town. Please advise on this one....

GIA certed, #13809467, 7.18 x 7.18 x 5.19 mm, 2.35ct, 72.3% depth, 71% table, girdle slightly thick, culet none, polish and symmetry excellent, F, VS2. No fluorescence and just a cluster of crystals that cause it to get the GIA rating of VS2.

Are princess cuts cheaper on the carat than rounds? This 2.35 ct stone, by dimensions seems to be smaller than the 1.70ct round. I have this stone availale for around $17K.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 2/21/2008 1:07:24 PM
Author: narly_1
I could not find any diamond on many of the websites that I went on that were priced at $14K for a 1.7ct, VVS2, F color. However, I did not know the cut quality was so different on the one I am considering. As a consumer, when I see a GIA cert that says Cut grade is Very Good, and the polish and symmetry is excellent, then I think I have found a good stone.

If I was to not take the purist approach, would this stone still be worth the money at $14K?

Also, here are some specs on a princess cut that I have found. The stone is a whopper (with fries and a med drink)...but I have never considered princess cuts. The ring is available in a nearby town. Please advise on this one....

GIA certed, #13809467, 7.18 x 7.18 x 5.19 mm, 2.35ct, 72.3% depth, 71% table, girdle slightly thick, culet none, polish and symmetry excellent, F, VS2. No fluorescence and just a cluster of crystals that cause it to get the GIA rating of VS2.

Are princess cuts cheaper on the carat than rounds? This 2.35 ct stone, by dimensions seems to be smaller than the 1.70ct round. I have this stone availale for around $17K.

I understand. What most consumers, outside of PS don''t know, is that GIA''s ranges/gradings leave a bit to be desired.

As for whether this stone would be worth the money, I can''t answer that. You would have to ask yourself how much a stone that most likely won''t perform that well would be worth to you, at any size.

Unless your girl has expressed a specific interest in a Princess diamond, I wouldn''t advise getting one. Most people either do, or don''t like them. When in doubt, go round.

 

[mrssalvo]

does your girlfriend want a princess? I ask b/c most gals who want rounds would not want a princess. it's not an overly popular shape right now so unless you know that's what she wants no need going down that path.

narly- the table on the stone you found in India is just too large. seriously, take out the whole buying from india thing, which I personally would not do with such an important purchase, I still would not buy that stone. believe me with diamonds especially, you really do get what you pay for.

i really do hope you'll take us up on our offer to help put together a perfect ring for you gal but understand if you want to just test out the waters and go the India route. Princess stones are also very hard to judge by numbers alone, if i were hunting for a princess I would probably stick to those who are graded by AGS and recieve the highly coveted 000 rating.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 2/21/2008 1:33:58 PM
Author: mrssalvo
does your girlfriend want a princess? I ask b/c most gals who want rounds would not want a princess. it''s not an overly popular shape right no so unless you know that''s what she wants no need going down that path.

narly- the table on the stone you found in India is just too large. seriously, take out the whole buying from india thing, which I personally would not do with such an important purchase, I still would not buy that stone. believe me with diamonds especially, you really do get what you pay for.

i really do hope you''ll take us up on our offer to help put together a perfect ring for your gal but understand if you want to just test out the waters and go the India route. Princess stones are also very hard to judge by numbers alone, if i were hunting for a princess I would probably stick to those who are graded by AGS and recieve the highly coveted 000 rating.

Me too. Because we are very good at this. Of course, some of us have had more experience than others...

*looks at mrsSmith*

But seriously, we know what to look for, no one knows settings better than mrss, and I am just totally confident if you let us help you, your lady will be sending us all fruitcakes next xmas to thank us.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 2/21/2008 1:39:03 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 2/21/2008 1:33:58 PM


*looks at mrsSmith*

Date: 2/21/2008 1:39:03 PM
Author: Ellen

But seriously, we know what to look for, no one knows settings better than mrss, and I am just totally confident if you let us help you, your lady will be sending us all fruitcakes next xmas to thank us.

aw,thanks ellen from a *blushing* mrsSmith..
ditto on the fruitcakes next Christmas

 

[Ellen]

Get back here, we gotta help him! lol


And yer welcome.

 

[narly_1]

Folks, it is noce to know that so many of you are willing to help me. Here is my budget. For $19K, I would like to buy a diamond, a setting and a matching wedding band. I am attaching a pic of the ring that I had bought and had to return because the diamond was not what was promised. However, I loved the setting. A jeweller in NYC has quoted a price of $3000 for the mount and the band. That leaves me about $13 to $14K for the center stone.

Please lead me to where I can get a colorless or near colorless stone that will match this setting.

Again, many thanks for the ongoing help.

 

[Cleo]

Did you take a look at the link to a diamond I posted above?

This one.

I will let the other PSers post some links to similar settings, as they probably have a better idea where to get something like that.

x x x

 

[mrssalvo]

narly, what''s the total diamond carat weight in the setting that you want?

 

[Ellen]

Another question/suggestion. Unless you're getting married in the next couple months, I would suggest holding off on the wedding band. You can save up for that, or, take a little bit of this budget, and save the rest, thus allowing you to possibly spend more on the diamond or setting, whichever is deemed necessary.




Cleo picked a very nice diamond. And I'll have a look, but we really need to know just how much we've got for the stone, and the setting.

Oh, and is White Gold ok? Or is Platinum necessary? WG will run you less.

And you're very welcome.

 

[narly_1]

I am budgeting up to $16K for the stone. I would like to have an elegant setting. She has very pretty, slim fingers and I always tease her that she should be a "hand" model. White gold is OK also. The ring I posted has 18, F, VS2 type stones of about 0.12ct each. Thus, the mount has 2.16ct total....I still would like to present her with the "4ct" that she jokingly told me once. Thanks for the suggestion on the band...I can wait. Just as long and I can find, or get custom made, a matching band.

God bless all of you.

 

[mrssalvo]

ok, well, I love those shared prong eternity wedding sets but, they are known to have exposed girdles (sides of the diamonds) that when worn with a band, the diamonds on the two rings will eat away at each other unless you solder them together. If i were doing that type of setting, I would really recommend getting the Memoire version. they are designed to fit together like a puzzle and they are the top of the line in terms of quality. you can read about how they are made on memoires website. it''s a very facinating process. www.memoire.com here''s a picture of the set so you can see how they fit together as to not cause damage: memoire will make them in WG which will help you on the cost. I would suggest getting the e-ring now, put the rest of the budgt towards the stone and get the matching band closer to the wedding. Quest jewelers and Pearlmans both carry the memoire line. i would call them both for quotes and see who will give you the better price..

 

[Ellen]

Something else to consider, which you may, or may not be aware of. Many people believe, because most jewelers tell them this, that the "best quality" diamonds, are the higher color, higher clarity stones. That''s not really true. What makes a stone beautiful, and sparkley, is how well it''s cut. Color and clarity are more a personal preference. Most on here will buy at the lowest clarity level that still remains eyeclean. As long as you can''t see it, there''s no reason to pay for more of what you can''t see. There are gals on here who have totally eyeclean SI2 stones. They look like a flawless stone would, but cost a fraction. Now, these are harder to find, but it happens. And there are definitely a lot of great SI1''s to be had. These vendors will tell you truthfully if a stone is eyeclean.

Color is something that''s a bit trickier. You said earlier you wanted something in the colorless, or near colorless range. Do you know if your girl is color sensitive? G will still show no color, and H is usually safe. I is where some people start seeing a hint of warmth, and J also. However, there are some gals on here with killer J''s. They can be a great value, if a bit of warmth isn''t a problem. But you need to decide where you want to be on color.


Once you can say how low you will go on color and clarity, we can really start looking.

 

[Ellen]

Typing while you guys were posting!

Back to read.

 

[mrssalvo]

i agree with Ellen that CUT is the most important thing. If i were looking for a 2 carat round I would totally be seeking out an H/I SI1/S12 stone in order to get the best value. ideal cut rounds really do hide color and the H/I range is still very white. there are some great J''s around here too, but unless you know for sure you gal isn''t color sensitive, I personally wouldn''t go quite that low in a 2 carat stone.

 

[Ellen]

Just throwing this out here. The diamond Cleo found is a really nice one. You''re at H, and SI1, (nice combo) and almost 2 cts. Going just a bit under a signifigant ct. mark (in this case 2 ct.) can save you a lot of money. When you jump to 2 cts, so does the price, a lot. However, finding these stones just a bit under is not always easy.

In looking around, I found this one. It gets you the 2 ct. mark by going down one color and clarity, but it''s still a bit over budget. Your budget is at a place where unless you go down lower in color, it''s going to be too much. Honestly, if it were me, I''d seriously consider that H. It''s a great size, and a great stone. And I can''t really find anything better at the moment. WF is great to work with, and has a very good upgrade policy.

You''d need to ask if it''s eyeclean. And tell them what that means to you (wherever you buy). If you don''t want to see anything from any distance from any angle, let them know. Normally it is judged in the face up position from so many inches away.

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-179713.htm#

You would get a 5% PS discount off this one, as well as the H Cleo posted.

 

[narly_1]

Mrsalvo, thank you for the link to www.memoire.com. That is exactly what I wanted. The asscher collection is to die for. I found out through the website that there is a jeweller in Asheville, NC, which is only 60 miles from me who carries this collection! I know where I am headed this weekend! OK....so, we have the body of the car ready....now, if I can find the perfect darn engine..I will be set...oh well, probably a bad analogy...but I live in NASCAR country....lol.

Thanks.

 

[narly_1]

Ooops...so sorry...I meant mrssalvo...I should learn to preview my posts.