I could really use some good advice...

[LuvinMyLife86]

I really need some outside perspective on this, and I''m hoping some of you could help me out. So me, my fiancé (bf at the time), his sister, and her bf used to all live together. In February things got really bad between the four of us so fi and I decided someone needed to move. Fsil and her bf wanted to stay, so in march my fiancé and I moved out. We all sat down with the landlord to make sure we were all on the same page. Landlord said we could move out if fsil and bf continued to pay rent, which they agreed to. We were also given the option to cancel the contract to get our names off the lease. Doing this would have forced them to come up with the other half of the security deposit and start the year lease over in march which would extend their lease. We thought we would be nice and leave the lease as is, with their assurance that we could trust them to follow out the rest of the lease. We should have been smarter. Now, here it is in the middle of November, they have moved out, and are now telling us that we need to pay our half of the rent from April up until December when the lease will be done. They have said if we don''t pay it by the end of the month they will sue us. I have their texts saying they would be paying our rent and we were no longer financially obligated, but they are ignoring that. We have tried sitting down and talking it out, but all they want is the money. I don''t know what to do, they are my future family. Anyone have any advice? At this point I just feel like it''s a lose-lose situation. Everyone that I''ve talked to said I don''t owe them anything, including three lawyers, but either way I feel like is going to tear the family apart.

Any words of wisdom would be deeply appreciated.

 

[MonkeyPie]

First of all - when you sat down with the landlord, did you get ANYTHING in writing at all? If you did, they are just out of luck, and they will have to pony up what they tried to walk out on. If you didn''t...well, I''m afraid it may be you that has to bite the dust. The texts won''t help you much because it can''t be proven they wrote them (I''m assuming by texts you mean cellphone messages). Definitly get in touch with a lawyer and see what your options are.

 

[purrfectpear]

I''m not sure that monkeypie completely understood your post.

1. You are in no way responsible for any rent after you moved out while they were still there. Period.

2. Now that they have moved out, and you are still on the lease you "may" be responsible for the rent from now through the end of the lease. An attorney can advise you there.

It''s ridiculous that the relatives are even asking for you to pay for rent while you weren''t there. I can''t believe you are considering that as an option at all

They need to find someone else to scam IMO.

What happens to the rent from now until the end of the lease is between you and the landlord.

Did I mention that your FSIL has a screw loose?

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/19/2008 8:18:11 PM
Author: purrfectpear
I'm not sure that monkeypie completely understood your post.


1. You are in no way responsible for any rent after you moved out while they were still there. Period.


2. Now that they have moved out, and you are still on the lease you 'may' be responsible for the rent from now through the end of the lease. An attorney can advise you there.


It's ridiculous that the relatives are even asking for you to pay for rent while you weren't there. I can't believe you are considering that as an option at all

They need to find someone else to scam IMO.

What happens to the rent from now until the end of the lease is between you and the landlord.


Did I mention that your FSIL has a screw loose?

This isn't quite true in many states PP. Depending on the state, if all of your names were on the lease you are ALL jointly liable for the rent payments. So technically they might be able to sue you for your portion of the rent, but they very well might not win if there was an agreement that they would assume responsibility for the rent. It depends on the judge and the specifics of tenant law in your state. As for what happens now that they have moved out, again your LL can sue all of you for failure to pay your rent. Again, if you have proof that they agreed to take over the lease in writing, then it will bode well for you, but at the same time you are still technically liable for the apartment and paying for it until the lease is over in many states.

If you can get a statement from the landlord stating that you haven't been living there since X date and that it was agreed upon that they would take over the lease, that also would help you in court. The outcome of this greatly depends on the small claims court judge and the specifics of tenant landlord law in your state.

 

[NovemberBride]

Purrfect,

I am not sure I agree with your first point if I am understanding you correctly. If the poster and her bf have their name on the lease, and they did not formally break or amend that lease with the landlord''s consent, then they are still legally obligated on the lease. As she stated, she explicitly chose not to cancel the lease (a mistake I am sure she won''t make again). Whether or not the landlord will hold her to her lease or whether she could prevail in a court case is an entirely different matter and one that no one has the answer to because it is unpredictable. The only thing that is clear is that she still has a legally binding document that says she has to pay.

OP,
It is unclear from the original post whether or not FSIL and her bf have paid the rent up through the date they moved out. If so, you are probably in a pretty good position with respect to that portion of the rent (i.e. landlord has his rent and is happy and it''s pretty doubtful your FSIL is going to sue you). If not, and with respect to the rest of the money, it all depends on whether the landlord is willing to honor your verbal agreement and whether that agreement is enforceable (certain types of contracts and modifications thereto have to be in writing). I don''t know the rules in your state, and I suggest you consult a good attorney if you think there is a serious threat and if there is a significant amount of money at stake. For what it''s worth, a good attorney will never tell you you don''t owe them money. They will listen to the facts and give you their view of the case, but will never tell you point blank you don''t owe them money. That''s the court''s decision.

 

[BlueSki231]

OH my god this is exactly the kind of situations they have on those daytime judge shows!!
I would be outraged..
You mean to tell me this woman is willing to sue her own brother? What is their relationship like? What kind of people are they? are they desperate for money? it sounds pretty pathetic that they would stoop this low, especially after making an agreement with you.
Do you think they''d actually go through with sueing you? I mean, it''s easy to SAY they''re going to but would they really follow through with it?
If they do I think those texts DO count for something.. save those they are definitely evidence. And text DO show which phone # they were sent from so this is definitely proof of your agreement.

YOu are not the one tearing the family apart. it''s this sister who like purrfectpear said, has a screw loose!!

 

[Bia]

Date: 11/19/2008 9:25:51 PM
Author: Namaste
OH my god this is exactly the kind of situations they have on those daytime judge shows!!

I would be outraged..

You mean to tell me this woman is willing to sue her own brother? What is their relationship like? What kind of people are they? are they desperate for money? it sounds pretty pathetic that they would stoop this low, especially after making an agreement with you.

Do you think they'd actually go through with sueing you? I mean, it's easy to SAY they're going to but would they really follow through with it?

If they do I think those texts DO count for something.. save those they are definitely evidence. And text DO show which phone # they were sent from so this is definitely proof of your agreement.


YOu are not the one tearing the family apart. it's this sister who like purrfectpear said, has a screw loose!!

I know, I can't believe that this is your BF's sister! How horrible...

Fight this tooth and nail, even if it costs you some out of pocket expenses. They are both crazy for even trying to go there...

 

[MonkeyPie]

Date: 11/19/2008 8:18:11 PM
Author: purrfectpear
I''m not sure that monkeypie completely understood your post.

1. You are in no way responsible for any rent after you moved out while they were still there. Period.

2. Now that they have moved out, and you are still on the lease you ''may'' be responsible for the rent from now through the end of the lease. An attorney can advise you there.

It''s ridiculous that the relatives are even asking for you to pay for rent while you weren''t there. I can''t believe you are considering that as an option at all

They need to find someone else to scam IMO.

What happens to the rent from now until the end of the lease is between you and the landlord.

Did I mention that your FSIL has a screw loose?

I might have misunderstood, since the OP didn''t come back to explain better, but I read it as they were ALL on the lease, OP included, which is why they sat down with the landlord. Which means that if they don''t have anything in writing to prove this secondary agreement, they are screwed.

 

[perry]

Before talking to a lawyer.... I suggest you contact the landlord and find out what the rent status is of the lease.

If the lease is paid up to when they moved out... Then you are only possibly legally liable for the remainder.

If the other couple did not pay the rent up to recently then you may be liable for more.

However, many landlords will honor verbal agreements - and the landlord may well tell you that they consider you off the hook, or perhaps only consider that you are responsible for 1/2 of the remaining.

I suspect that if you are nice to the landlord that they will probably be nice back (and it is definitely worth a try).

The only "for sure" legal exposure you likely face is from the landlord as your name is on the lease.

As far as the other couple sueing you for rent after you have moved out. I suggest you let them if they are willing to go through with it. Tell them that a deal is a deal and you are willing to defend that deal in court (and that you are square with the landlord - which is your real legal liability). While judicial outcomes are not 100% predictable, it is highly likely that you would prevail in your defense on this one, and it is possible that your messages would be allowed as evidence in small claims court in a case like this (that varies from state to state - and perhaps judge to judge).

Oh, and sorry you have to go through with this

 

[LuvinMyLife86]

Thanks so much for all the responses so far. All thecrent has been paid except for the last month. Landlord is aware of everything going on, knows we moved out and knows that they took over all the rent. The only thing I have in writing is all our text conversations. I wish I could back in time and cancel the lease when we had the chance, but I didn''t think they would ever pull something like this. They had been nothing but nice up until this point, I had no idea. I''m fairly certain they will be taking us to court, her bf likes to always be right, and they''re suing us for a fair chunk of change and they could use the money. This is just not what I want to deal with while planning my wedding, and so close to the holidays. And I feel so bad for my fiancé, they used to be so close and now things are so different.

 

[girlie-girl]

Unfortunately I think you''re bound by the lease, it is a legal contract afterall that all parties signed saying they will pay the rent for said unit until a specified date. Moving out does not absolve you of this legal contract, only ending the lease could have done that. I don''t see how the text messages would trump this legally-binding contract that you agreed to.

It''s a shame someone''s own family member would take advantage like this, but I guess that''s why there are so many people out there who say don''t enter into legal contracts with family members.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but if things were ''really bad'' in February causing you to have to move out, why did you think things would get better?

I wish you luck!

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/20/2008 12:03:03 AM
Author: LuvinMyLife86
Thanks so much for all the responses so far. All thecrent has been paid except for the last month. Landlord is aware of everything going on, knows we moved out and knows that they took over all the rent. The only thing I have in writing is all our text conversations. I wish I could back in time and cancel the lease when we had the chance, but I didn't think they would ever pull something like this. They had been nothing but nice up until this point, I had no idea. I'm fairly certain they will be taking us to court, her bf likes to always be right, and they're suing us for a fair chunk of change and they could use the money. This is just not what I want to deal with while planning my wedding, and so close to the holidays. And I feel so bad for my fiancé, they used to be so close and now things are so different.

What state are you in? I volunteer for a tenant organization in my state (all I do when I am there is read leases and help people understand and deal with tenant landlord law) so I know a lot about this area and would be happy to try and look into the situation where you live if you'd like. City and State would be better if you are willing to share as some cities have their own regulations about renters too.

But unfortunately, if they want to sue they most likely can because you are all most likely jointly liable for the lease, even if you moved out. Your job at this point is to prove the verbal contract that you were moving out and that they would take over the rental payments and the lease. A signed statement from the landlord stating this was the agreement could help you immensely in small claims court, as at this point it would be a "he said/she said" thing for the most part.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Ouch! This sounds like it''s not going to go away quietly.

First of all, you need to protect yourself and whats yours. Taking your name off the lease would have been the best thing for you and your boyfriend to do..but since you didn''t do that, you need to now think about you first, and let the chips fall where they may.

The girl "fired the first shot" by backing out of your verbal agreement. Oh well if she''s about to be family...in a perfect world, family shouldn''t do this to one another--so until she takes the to heart, you shouldn''t cave under that pressure either.

I''d contact your old landlord and get a statement in writing that he knew what your intentions were and how the agreement was laid out. Then, I''d have your cell phone company send you a print out of the text messages you exchanged. Finally, I''d draw up a formal letter informing her that after seeking and receiving legal advice, as well as witness statements, that if she feels compelled to continue with this matter, you''ll see her in court.

 

[bee*]

I agree with Italia. Get your landlord to give you something in writing so that you have that there if they do take you to court. I can''t believe that your FSIL would do that! People are crazy!

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Here is the other thing that just crossed my mind...

Most people who *threaten* to sue, generally don''t, for many people its more of a scare tactic. Esspecially over small amounts of cash--because legal fees often times outweigh any potential financal gain and make a law suite a moot point.

In my opinion, given the informality of her approached, I tend to be believe she is probably trying to scare you into giving her money (heck, it''s Christmas and the economy is wrecked...free cash would be nice)...but if you really believe you did nothing wrong then stand your ground until you''re legally forced to retreat.

When I first read your post, I thought to myself "yes, Luvinmylife is going to pay..." because legally, if your name is attached to a payment related issue, then it is your resonability to actually pay regardless of weither you use it or not. Similar to cosigning for a car...you may never drive that car--but if the other person defaults on the loan, then you will be held responsible to pay for it. Those are just the facts.

I still totally believe you need to get your "ducks in a row" so to speak...letters, witnesses, and even a lawyer lined up. But, you also need to weigh it. How much money will fighting it cost verse what you''d have to pay to make the issue go away. Is it worth distroying your credit? Esspecially in this economic climate? If this issue were to go to court, and your were found in fault...that judgement effects your credit score. Not paying the rent effects your credit score. I don''t know your immediate plans for the future, but credit is nothing to play with at all! Maybe the four of you could sit down like grown ups and work out a plan? Prehaps paying a smaller amount, such as a precentage...or lump sum? While I don''t believe that if you agreed on certain terms you should have to go back and pay for it all....but this will be a good lesson for you on how to conduct business in the future (esspecially with family)

 

[Shoopy]

Get an affidavat (??) from the landlord ASAP so that you can have it documented that the conversation took place.

If they claim they will sue, then let them go through with it. I wouldn''t pay a dime until that court date. They will only be able to take you to small claims court anyway.

It stopped being about family the minute they brought up suing you guys.

 

[Shoopy]

Also, for my understanding: they paid the rent up through now right? So this isn't the landlord coming to you, its just them.

If that's the case, then they don't have anything against you regardless of the state. It would be different if they hadn't paid the rent and the landlord was now coming to you asking for the money, in which case you would be liable because your names are on the lease.

I should have just ditto'd purfect. Because you are on the lease, you may be liable to pay your portion of the payments now that they have moved out. But if the agreement was between the four of you that you would move out and not pay any rent, then you don't owe them money for the rent they've paid. I would imagine that standing in court they'd say "well we paid the rent from April through November with no problem but we want our money now" and the judge would ask them why now and they wouldn't have an answer.

I would maybe agree to pay for the remainder of the lease (your portion) or pay half of the cancellation of the lease fee and that's it. If they want to take you to court, then let them. They have no case.

 

[neatfreak]

I want to clarify something about small claims court here... OP, despite the fact that they have been paying the rent for months, they STILL CAN SUE YOU for that past rent. Small claims court is an entirely different animal and I have seen many roommate problems just like this, where one roommate pays the rent and then waits until the end of the lease and sues the other roommate for reneging on the deal. I have seen it literally hundreds of times in my time as a housing counselor. And while morally they might not have a case, all they care about in small claims court is paperwork and documentation. If they have it, and you don't, they sure as heck might have a case.

So despite the logic that they've been paying all these months, they STILL CAN SUE YOU. And they potentially could win if you cannot prove that you had an agreement that you would no longer be responsible. So it is of the utmost importance that should they take you to court, you build as strong of a case as possible that you had an agreement about the lease. Otherwise they have a document that says that you should have been paying and you have nothing.

If these people are vindictive, they very well might sue you. There is really no cost for them except the small claims court filing fee, which is usually less than $100. If they win, they get their $. If they lose, they lose the filing fee and that's pretty much it. So don't assume that "legal fees" will keep them from suing, as you do not need a lawyer for small claims court (not to say you shouldn't/can't consult or use one if you want though).

In addition, the landlord can sue you for the unpaid rent from now until the end of the lease since you are still on the lease. And he can wait until the lease is up if he wants because then it will be officially "unpaid" rent and he can just sue all at once, which is easier.

 

[LuvinMyLife86]

Thank you thank you everyone!! I really appreciate all the time you guys have taken to help me out. They have been threatening to sue us since october, but Im pretty sure they will go through with it. They just bought a house, as did we, and they have stated to us and other family members that they dont have any money. But neither do we! I dont how they expect us to pay $7000 in a matter of 2 weeks. We just dont have that kind of money.

The only form of an agreement I have is a text from him telling me that they are going to cover our rent and we wont owe anything else. Im going to try to contact the landlord, but he already told them he wanted to stay out of it. I cant really blame him, he has his money, he''s happy and doesnt need our drama. But I will see if he could write a simple email to me saying that he knew we were moving out and wouldnt be paying any more rent, and the other two would carry out the rest of the lease. This all just gives me a headache, I had no idea anything was wrong, we all just went on a cruise together, were regularly going out to dinner together.... I just dont get it.

 

[Keepingthefaith21]

I just wanted to echo that sometimes people will threaten to sue and decide not to once they realize that the costs involved could negate any monies they stand to collect.

I had a landlord threaten to sue me because he thought I forgot a month of rent. It was a ridiculous accusation especially seeing as I had my own personal financial records avalible to back up my assertion that there was no way I could have thought I accidentally had an extra $1,300 in my account. As soon as he threatened to sue, I gave him the name and number of my family attorney, told him to bring it on and promptly sent an e-mail off to my attorney asking for him to contact me if a call was placed. Needless to say, he never called. Never sued. Never bothered with contacting me again.

If it gets to the point where they legitimately want to sue and you want to try and maintain some sort of a relationship with this girl, IMHO let the court decide who owes who what. Clearly they aren''t going to bend on their story. At the very least, allowing them to move forward with legal action buys you a little time to try and come up with the money.

Lastly, before going straight to court, may I suggest attempting to work this out through a professional mediator? They are usually very well versed in the laws, they are a disinterested thrid party and they could probably help solve this issue without a trip to court.

Good luck to you!!!

 

[AmberGretchen]

I have to ditto everyone about doing everything in your power to get written documentation in whatever form you can, preferably from the landlord. I know he wants to "stay out of it" but he was the only witness to the agreement (that you''ve mentioned), and so I would really stay on him about just a simple statement - he could even just put his signature on something you write, as long as it shows that he knew of the agreement and that it did actually exist.

I''m so sorry you''re going through this situation - what a rotten thing for them to be doing!

 

[perry]

Date: 11/20/2008 12:07:45 PM
Author: neatfreak
I want to clarify something about small claims court here... OP, despite the fact that they have been paying the rent for months, they STILL CAN SUE YOU for that past rent. Small claims court is an entirely different animal and I have seen many roommate problems just like this, where one roommate pays the rent and then waits until the end of the lease and sues the other roommate for reneging on the deal. I have seen it literally hundreds of times in my time as a housing counselor. And while morally they might not have a case, all they care about in small claims court is paperwork and documentation. If they have it, and you don''t, they sure as heck might have a case.

So despite the logic that they''ve been paying all these months, they STILL CAN SUE YOU. And they potentially could win if you cannot prove that you had an agreement that you would no longer be responsible. So it is of the utmost importance that should they take you to court, you build as strong of a case as possible that you had an agreement about the lease. Otherwise they have a document that says that you should have been paying and you have nothing.

If these people are vindictive, they very well might sue you. There is really no cost for them except the small claims court filing fee, which is usually less than $100. If they win, they get their $. If they lose, they lose the filing fee and that''s pretty much it. So don''t assume that ''legal fees'' will keep them from suing, as you do not need a lawyer for small claims court (not to say you shouldn''t/can''t consult or use one if you want though).

In addition, the landlord can sue you for the unpaid rent from now until the end of the lease since you are still on the lease. And he can wait until the lease is up if he wants because then it will be officially ''unpaid'' rent and he can just sue all at once, which is easier.

While things are never guaranteed in court... The fact that one party completely moved out and the other party continued to pay rent for many months without complaint makes it a somewhat different case than if all parties had stayed in the appartment. Yes, private parties can sue. But in this case I think LuvinMyLife86 is on very solid ground.

LuvinMyLife86: Again, I state to be sure you are clear with the landlord. It is only with him that you have a signed legal agreement. The landlord may be more willing to help you (you will likely need direct testamony) if you pay at least your share of the last months rent (showing good faith). That will also likely weigh well with the judge - your demonstration that you are willing to freely pick up what your obligations are - while at the same time refusing to pay what you are not obligated to pay.

My guess is that they are bluffing - and I suggest you call their bluff. Only here is how to do it right.

Another thought - and something I have done in the past. I had a situation develop with a former employer - which was against our agreement and probably not entirely legal either. So I dropped in on a local lawfirm that specialized in employment law and asked them to draft a letter along the lines of my outline - with any suggestions they might have. A week later I had a completely different response and the issue was cleared up. $75 -$100 was a very good investment (that was like 20 years ago).

If you do consult a lawyer - have them send a letter (registered mail or other signed reciept) advising that they are representing you and assembling information for a countersuit should you be sued (I admit that you probably do not have much to countersue for - but they started the game). Sometimes getting a letter from a lawyer changes the entier picture. My guess is that the situaion will end there. They need money - and they are convinced they can bluff you into giving it to them - or at least agreeing to help them out.

Perry