HRD Cert vs Appraisal Question

[yellowsparkles]

(I had posted this in show me the ring by mistake)
I bought a Fancy Yellow diamond ring a few months ago. I thought everything was fine and now I am kinda stressing out again.

I bought the ring from a jeweler I worked with 6 yrs ago in DC. I was in California visiting family and I thought if I buy from her, I wouldn''t have to pay sales tax (plus, I trusted her judgement). She found a ring from a designer in NYC she has known for years. The stone''s HRD certificate states "Fancy Intense Yellow - Natural colour". She sent the ring to me and I liked it. For peace of mind and to see if the HRD cert checks out, I took it to an independent appraiser (Master Gemologist Appraiser) and everything seemed to check out at the time. Cut was good, Clarity SI1, Color - Fancy Intense Yellow (or so I thought she said).

I am now in the UK and I received the appraisal in the mail. The color states Fancy Yellow. I contacted the appraiser to see if it was really Fancy Yellow or if the "Intense" was mistakingly left out. She said her notes state "Medium Yellow" and she wrote Intense on her notes after seeing the HRD Cert. She said Medium Yellow is Fancy Yellow according to the GIA.

I now have to submit something to the insurance company. I have the appraisal from the Jeweler in DC - which just re-states the HRD cert and has a high dollar amt. Or, should I use the independent appraisal with a lower dollar amt and lower "yellow" color? Both are more than what I paid for the ring. But, if I were to have to replace the ring with another "Intense Yellow" diamond, I wouldn''t be able to do so with the dollar amt on the second appraisal.

Sorry for the rambling. I guess I am trying to decide if I like the ring as much now that it is fancy yellow. I did shop around at shops to compare yellows. The nicest shop in town had tons of Fancy Yellows but they were more on the lighter side. I didn''t get to compare with many Intense Yellows. I know there are many shades of yellow in between grades and I thought I just had a "lighter" intense yellow.

Thanks for listening.

SHould I contact the Jeweler in DC? I don''t expect her to do anything since it has been 2 months since I bought the ring.

 

[denverappraiser]

Yellowsparkles,

Talk to your appraiser in California about her report.

If your appraiser is referencing the HRD examination for the ‘natural color origin’ claim, which is likely, she should be including a copy of the entire HRD report included with her own. She can and should report that there are other findings from the referenced HRD exam that do not match her own. In the end, one of the things you paid for is a stone with HRD paperwork describing it as ‘fancy intense’ and, assuming it is describing the correct stone, this is what the insurance company must replace.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[yellowsparkles]

DenverAppriaser,
Thanks for your help. I contacted the appraiser in California and this is her response:

When I was taking the notes, I called the stone fancy yellow. When I saw that the HRD report said fancy "intense" yellow on it I added to my notes that I saw it as medium yellow and not intense, hence my call on the report.

In her report, she references the HRD cert when describing the color as natural. She did not take a copy of the certificate (but she did take notes from it after she was done with the examination) but all the other findings seem to match right up. Her measurements are within .01mm of the certs. Considering she is looking at the stone already set, I thought this was pretty good. Also, she agreed with the SI1 clarity and cut quality.

This is from her last email:

Thanks for the copy of the cert. What did you pay for the ring all together? I remember that you said you got a great deal, etc because you had worked with her before. I figured about 11,000 for the diamond and over 3,000 for the rest of the mounting. If you paid in the 12,000 range, you have a fancy yellow, if you paid in the 20,000 range, you have a fancy intense. Hope this helps


Wouldn''t it be better to say " if you paid in the 12,000 range you did OK, if you paid in the 20,000 range you got ripped off". I know she is being nice and trying to ease my concerns, but I dont see how it could be if I paid in the 20,000 range my diamond somehow becomes yellow intense.

Any thoughts?
ps. I did pay in the 12,000 range. I am not concerned about loosing money per se as I am just trying to get a handle on the jeweler in DC. Was I misled?

Thanks

 

[diagem]

style="WIDTH: 100.99%; HEIGHT: 466px">Date: 6/23/2006 4:12:06 AM
Author:yellowsparkles

(I had posted this in show me the ring by mistake)
I bought a Fancy Yellow diamond ring a few months ago. I thought everything was fine and now I am kinda stressing out again.

I bought the ring from a jeweler I worked with 6 yrs ago in DC. I was in California visiting family and I thought if I buy from her, I wouldn''t have to pay sales tax (plus, I trusted her judgement). She found a ring from a designer in NYC she has known for years. The stone''s HRD certificate states ''Fancy Intense Yellow - Natural colour''. She sent the ring to me and I liked it. For peace of mind and to see if the HRD cert checks out, I took it to an independent appraiser (Master Gemologist Appraiser) and everything seemed to check out at the time. Cut was good, Clarity SI1, Color - Fancy Intense Yellow (or so I thought she said).

I am now in the UK and I received the appraisal in the mail. The color states Fancy Yellow. I contacted the appraiser to see if it was really Fancy Yellow or if the ''Intense'' was mistakingly left out. She said her notes state ''Medium Yellow'' and she wrote Intense on her notes after seeing the HRD Cert. She said Medium Yellow is Fancy Yellow according to the GIA.

I now have to submit something to the insurance company. I have the appraisal from the Jeweler in DC - which just re-states the HRD cert and has a high dollar amt. Or, should I use the independent appraisal with a lower dollar amt and lower ''yellow'' color? Both are more than what I paid for the ring. But, if I were to have to replace the ring with another ''Intense Yellow'' diamond, I wouldn''t be able to do so with the dollar amt on the second appraisal.

Sorry for the rambling. I guess I am trying to decide if I like the ring as much now that it is fancy yellow. I did shop around at shops to compare yellows. The nicest shop in town had tons of Fancy Yellows but they were more on the lighter side. I didn''t get to compare with many Intense Yellows. I know there are many shades of yellow in between grades and I thought I just had a ''lighter'' intense yellow.

Thanks for listening.

SHould I contact the Jeweler in DC? I don''t expect her to do anything since it has been 2 months since I bought the ring.

HRD are considered a reputable labratory in this industry, especially when it comes to grading fancy colored diamonds..., if it states "intense", than thats what it is, and you should appraise it as an intense!!!

Yellow fluo. on a natural colored yellow diamond is usually a positive mark, and as far as my common sense, GIA would not base their grading on the kind of fluo. a diamond possesses!!! As far as i know, GIA grades the color on fancy colored stones based on face up appearance...

 

[diagem]

Date: 6/24/2006 3:50:49 AM
Author: yellowsparkles
DenverAppriaser,
Thanks for your help. I contacted the appraiser in California and this is her response:

When I was taking the notes, I called the stone fancy yellow. When I saw that the HRD report said fancy ''intense'' yellow on it I added to my notes that I saw it as medium yellow and not intense, hence my call on the report.

In her report, she references the HRD cert when describing the color as natural. She did not take a copy of the certificate (but she did take notes from it after she was done with the examination) but all the other findings seem to match right up. Her measurements are within .01mm of the certs. Considering she is looking at the stone already set, I thought this was pretty good. Also, she agreed with the SI1 clarity and cut quality.

This is from her last email:

Thanks for the copy of the cert. What did you pay for the ring all together? I remember that you said you got a great deal, etc because you had worked with her before. I figured about 11,000 for the diamond and over 3,000 for the rest of the mounting. If you paid in the 12,000 range, you have a fancy yellow, if you paid in the 20,000 range, you have a fancy intense. Hope this helps

That is rediculus!!!!


Wouldn''t it be better to say '' if you paid in the 12,000 range you did OK, if you paid in the 20,000 range you got ripped off''. I know she is being nice and trying to ease my concerns, but I dont see how it could be if I paid in the 20,000 range my diamond somehow becomes yellow intense.

Any thoughts?
ps. I did pay in the 12,000 range. I am not concerned about loosing money per se as I am just trying to get a handle on the jeweler in DC. Was I misled?

Thanks

I dont care how much you paid, if the report sais "intense", you have to make sure you can replace it in case of a loss or something else...
Just make sure you are informed that these fancy colored diamonds are going up in price constantly!!!

My suggestion to you is: get the stone appraised again based on the HRD report and today''s prices...

Good luck.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 6/24/2006 8:00:20 AM
Author: DiaGem

This is from her last email:

Thanks for the copy of the cert. What did you pay for the ring all together? I remember that you said you got a great deal, etc because you had worked with her before. I figured about 11,000 for the diamond and over 3,000 for the rest of the mounting. If you paid in the 12,000 range, you have a fancy yellow, if you paid in the 20,000 range, you have a fancy intense. Hope this helps

That is rediculus!!!!

I agree, that’s ridiculous.

Telling the difference between fancy yellow and fancy intense yellow is a bit of an art form and there is some room for interpretation but PRICE is not a gemological property.

It’s not even clear to me that she disagrees with what HRD said. This is not a reasonable approach.

Your reason for hiring the CA appraiser was to confirm that the stone was the same one described by HRD and that the DC jeweler charged you a reasonable price, right? At least this has been accomplished. It is, and they did. If the description and value on the jewelers documentation are sufficient for the insurance company to make a replacement in case of a loss, your insurance requirements are met by the jewelers report. Use their report with the insurance company.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[yellowsparkles]

Thanks for the replies. I am glad I am not the only one who thought her statement was crazy.
I wasn''t sure how to respond to her last email. Do I lie and tell her that I paid $25K for the ring and then she would change her appraisal?

. I didn''t do that. Perhaps she was willing to change her appraisal for my insurance needs if I had indeed paid over $20K. (Eventhough she wasn''t willing to agree that she saw the stone as Intense Yellow).

Just a question. Could the stone look differently after its set? I realize that there is a fine line between the shades of yellow and it is a judgement call. I accept that and I accept that she saw the stone as Medium Yellow.

Thanks for easing my concerns.

 

[denverappraiser]

Yellowsparkles,

Yes, stones can look different after they’re set. Settings are often designed with this effect in mind. The usual plan is to make them look more saturated, not less, but I guess this will depend on the mounting selected.

You might consider contacting the appraiser who prepared the documents in DC about the valuation if you feel it’s unrealistically high for a replacement budget. It does you no benefit to have a value that’s significantly higher than what can be reasonably expected for the insurance company to need to pay for a replacement in the case of a loss.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[yellowsparkles]

Thanks Denver Appraiser.
That was a stupid question from me - of course I know that the setting should intensify the yellow colour.

I heard from the CA appriaser again and she said if I send the stone to GIA and they certify it as Fancy Intense, she will change her report.
I don''t think its necessary for me to spend even more money on this ring. I have the HRD certificate and I am able to purchase enough insurance to replace the ring, that is all that matters. I guess I was hoping to have a clear aggreement that the stone is in fact Fancy Intense.

Now, I will just give myself a fun assignment next time I go to London. I can check out Graff and Tiffany''s, etc and see if I can tell the difference in the grades of fancy colours!