How to motivate child to do school work?

[eks6426]

I am having the most frustrating time with my 10 year old son. He''s in 5th grade. I am continually getting notes home from the teacher about missing assignments, lost assignments, stuff not completed that is turned in, distracted & unfocused during school etc. This is not a new problem. I''ve gotten the same sort of notes from every teacher since he started school. Homework takes HOURs to complete...what should be a 15 minute assignment is often over an hour and that''s with me constantly nagging. He frequently "forgets" to bring home assignments, books etc. I have had him tested for ADD & a learning disability. The end results of the testing is that he is "brillant but unmotiavted." He reads at a 10th grade level. He has a vocabulary better than most adults. He has a really great ability to learn whatever interests him. Unfortunately school doesn''t "interest" him. I''ve tried to explain the importance of school work...how doing well lays the groundwork for doing well in high school and eventually college and then life. Not doing well closes doors to opportunities. We have issues both reward & punishment programs...tried several. TV time is pretty much gone. Any time I do take away something because assignments weren''t done I get "that''s ok, I really don''t care." I get the same response if I try a reward "I''m never going to be able to do it, so why should I bother?" He is really lucky this year to have a teacher who sees his potential and cares. She calls me reguarly to give updates and try to brainstorm to think of ideas. He sees the school counselor to try to work on this but not much progress there... But time is running out. Next year he goes to middle school and will probably flunk because the teachers have no mercy for missing assignments etc. The only thing that keeps him going now is the grace of his teacher and he does well on tests so it balances out. I just don''t know how to help him find that "internal motivation" to care about doing well in school.

Sorry for the rambling, but I am desperately looking for ideas.

Help!

 

[jas]

Hi Island. Phew! You poor thing! I''m here for you...

I have to type quickly because I''m out the door in a few minutes, but I''ll come back and finish later if I don''t now.

First...follow me with this. This may or may not apply. Often with super-bright children, the concept of "work" equals "struggle." Super-bright kids in the first few years of school sometimes don''t have to struggle much. It comes easily. Therefore, anything that they HAVE to put some effort into is foreign to them. They''ve never had to spend much effort/thought before, so they''ve never learned how to struggle. Then, usually in 4th, 5th, 6th grade, something happens where they are confronted with a challenge, and they struggle. They struggle with struggling. So often, they will shut down.

Does this always happen? No. Could there be other explanations? Absolutely. Just a thought.

Anyway, I''ve taught middle school for 12 years, high school for 2. I have two suggestions now and then I''ll think about it more and see what else I can offer later.

1. Use a timer. Get a digital timer or use the microwave timer...set it for 15 minutes. The deal is that your son WORKS. INTENSIVELY. 15 minutes. Then...stop. Set the timer again...but he gets to choose what to do the next 15 minutes...either continue working or take a 15 minute break. The next 15 minutes after that...WORK INTENSIVELY. Then a FORCED BREAK (15 minutes.) So, an hour will look like this:

15 minutes...focused, intense work
15 minutes EITHER continue working or TAKE A BREAK (You must not influence this decision either way)
15 minutes focused intense work
15 minutes BREAK.

So he will work between 30-45 minutes an hour. There is something about having a stopping point, and having a sense of choice in how to manage the time that really works for kids. You will probably want to sit next to him with "work" (i.e. balancing checkbook or a report you have, etc.) so that you can "catch" each other if you lose focus.

2. Check lists. I''m sure you''ve tried this, but it may be worth mentioning...have your son and teacher draft a check list of what he needs to pack and bring home every day. Laminate it. Give him a dry-erase marker and have him cross off each item AFTER he puts it in his backpack (you can work on a folder system later...right now the issue is getting it home.) If he''s lucky, maybe his teacher will let him pack his bag throughout the day, because in most classrooms, the "packing up" time is a mad 15 second dash to get the bags and run for the bus.

I''m sorry I also have to dash, but I hope this is at least something that can trigger something helpful.

 

[Mara]

I''m guessing the willow switch didn''t help?

(kidding!!!)

 

[eks6426]

jas--Thanks for the suggestions. Please keep them coming.

We have always had trouble with homework getting done. My son tests well but struggles with homework...but it''s not new. He doesn''t like to do anything unless he can do it really well. In fact, he went a Montessori preschool and refused to do any of the activities. He hung around the other kids and got in trouble. Then the last day, he went around and did all of them perfectly the first time. If he doesn''t just "get it" he has no persistance to keep trying. For example, he hasn''t wanted to learn multiplication tables introduced in 3rd grade. I did flash cards, we bought computer games & hand helds. I tried to make games of it. My parents tried. The school tried. My son''s response to why he''s not learning them? "Starting in 6th grade I get to use a calculator so why should I bother to memorize them?" (Yes, Mara, this is where I want that willow switch!!!)

He is very slow at doing things he doesn''t want to do. Homework, get dressed, eat dinner etc. Putting on his socks can easily take 20 minutes...that''s 10 minutes per sock!!!! We have tried the timer several times. Instead of working really hard he "breaks down and cries from the pressure." Those timed tests in school where you have 30 math problems to do results in him doing nothing. He freezes and won''t move forward.....

He has a student planner that is similar to your white board idea where he checks off the stuff he needs. Problem is he doesn''t remember what he needs. I suggest that he check things off through out the day so at the end all he has to do is look and grab..... So far no luck. He does have an accordian folder (that I labeled) so all the paper should be in one place...it''s just remembering the workbooks & text books.

I''m really left just wanting to use that willow stick. I eventually have to yell at him to get him to do stuff then he cries and says things like "I''m worthless, I can''t do anything etc." so that''s not good either. So, I try to praise but it''s hard to praise when he just doesn''t get stuff done day after day.....

This weekend he was in a band solo competition..first one. It was at the high school that I and his biological dad (who died when my son was in 1st grade) attended. His biological dad was a National Merit Finalist. I showed him the plaque on the wall and tried to impress upon him "how well daddy did in school."

Keep those ideas coming please!

 

[lyra]

I went through all of this with my youngest daughter. It was horrendously frustrating, still is (she's in Grade 12 now). She could do the work, but if she wasn't interested or challenged enough (but not too much!), she just wouldn't focus. It would take her hours and hours to do homework, which wasn't the way it should have been.

I don't have any real answers for you. All I can say is it gets easier for *you* to keep track of what homework is due and when if the teachers put out a lesson plan for the term/month/week that you can refer to. In highschool, all of this information is accessible online too.

I swear, I was sick to death of having phone calls from teachers every single year up until this last year. I guess they give up at some point! She is doing well enough now though, and has a plan for college and is working towards that. Good luck.

ETA: I think we were posting at the same time. I've had all the frustrations with cleaning of the room too! And reward/punishment is pretty much worthless as my daughter would just take any amount of restriction without a word. Or she would cry. Or she would say "I'm stupid!". Not true, but it's a kind of manipulation really. Is he interested in art? That is my daughter's strongest point. Well, computer graphics specifically. And she also has the huge vocabulary although to this day she can't spell to save her soul. Sorry I'm not being more helpful. They do at some point realize what they want out of life and how to get it. My daughter has never had trouble finding a job, she's a very outgoing bubbly girl. She's very optimistic for herself too.

 

[Hera]

Date: 1/28/2008 11:28:28 AM
Author: IslandDreams
jas--Thanks for the suggestions. Please keep them coming.

We have always had trouble with homework getting done. My son tests well but struggles with homework...but it''s not new. He doesn''t like to do anything unless he can do it really well. In fact, he went a Montessori preschool and refused to do any of the activities. He hung around the other kids and got in trouble. Then the last day, he went around and did all of them perfectly the first time. If he doesn''t just ''get it'' he has no persistance to keep trying. For example, he hasn''t wanted to learn multiplication tables introduced in 3rd grade. I did flash cards, we bought computer games & hand helds. I tried to make games of it. My parents tried. The school tried. My son''s response to why he''s not learning them? ''Starting in 6th grade I get to use a calculator so why should I bother to memorize them?'' (Yes, Mara, this is where I want that willow switch!!!)

He is very slow at doing things he doesn''t want to do. Homework, get dressed, eat dinner etc. Putting on his socks can easily take 20 minutes...that''s 10 minutes per sock!!!! We have tried the timer several times. Instead of working really hard he ''breaks down and cries from the pressure.'' Those timed tests in school where you have 30 math problems to do results in him doing nothing. He freezes and won''t move forward.....

He has a student planner that is similar to your white board idea where he checks off the stuff he needs. Problem is he doesn''t remember what he needs. I suggest that he check things off through out the day so at the end all he has to do is look and grab..... So far no luck. He does have an accordian folder (that I labeled) so all the paper should be in one place...it''s just remembering the workbooks & text books.

I''m really left just wanting to use that willow stick. I eventually have to yell at him to get him to do stuff then he cries and says things like ''I''m worthless, I can''t do anything etc.'' so that''s not good either. So, I try to praise but it''s hard to praise when he just doesn''t get stuff done day after day.....

This weekend he was in a band solo competition..first one. It was at the high school that I and his biological dad (who died when my son was in 1st grade) attended. His biological dad was a National Merit Finalist. I showed him the plaque on the wall and tried to impress upon him ''how well daddy did in school.''

Keep those ideas coming please!

It kind of strikes me that he may have a fear of failing. He doesn''t want to do anything unless he''s really good at it and later may make comments like I''m worthless and can''t do anything. This may be a self esteem issue. Not sure what I would suggest though....

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

Date: 1/28/2008 11:28:28 AM
Author: IslandDreams
jas--Thanks for the suggestions. Please keep them coming.

We have always had trouble with homework getting done. My son tests well but struggles with homework...but it''s not new. He doesn''t like to do anything unless he can do it really well. In fact, he went a Montessori preschool and refused to do any of the activities. He hung around the other kids and got in trouble. Then the last day, he went around and did all of them perfectly the first time. If he doesn''t just ''get it'' he has no persistance to keep trying. For example, he hasn''t wanted to learn multiplication tables introduced in 3rd grade. I did flash cards, we bought computer games & hand helds. I tried to make games of it. My parents tried. The school tried. My son''s response to why he''s not learning them? ''Starting in 6th grade I get to use a calculator so why should I bother to memorize them?'' (Yes, Mara, this is where I want that willow switch!!!)

He is very slow at doing things he doesn''t want to do. Homework, get dressed, eat dinner etc. Putting on his socks can easily take 20 minutes...that''s 10 minutes per sock!!!! We have tried the timer several times. Instead of working really hard he ''breaks down and cries from the pressure.'' Those timed tests in school where you have 30 math problems to do results in him doing nothing. He freezes and won''t move forward.....

He has a student planner that is similar to your white board idea where he checks off the stuff he needs. Problem is he doesn''t remember what he needs. I suggest that he check things off through out the day so at the end all he has to do is look and grab..... So far no luck. He does have an accordian folder (that I labeled) so all the paper should be in one place...it''s just remembering the workbooks & text books.

I''m really left just wanting to use that willow stick. I eventually have to yell at him to get him to do stuff then he cries and says things like ''I''m worthless, I can''t do anything etc.'' so that''s not good either. So, I try to praise but it''s hard to praise when he just doesn''t get stuff done day after day.....

This weekend he was in a band solo competition..first one. It was at the high school that I and his biological dad (who died when my son was in 1st grade) attended. His biological dad was a National Merit Finalist. I showed him the plaque on the wall and tried to impress upon him ''how well daddy did in school.''

Keep those ideas coming please!

You described my at that age. I was exceptionally bright but tried to do as little work as possible. I was terribly afraid of failure. I had few freinds and I felt the only thing I had going for me was my brain and I wasn'' perfect I wasn''t worth anything. My mom recognized the signs and had me tested for depression. Turns out do to a genetic problem I was born with unipolar depression. They put me on prozac and later paxil which has an antianxiety component and everything got better. I had more friends, I did my schoolwork and I did VERY well. I no longer need the therapy and I no longer freeze up either when I am under stress. In fact, I just to the GRE exams and did very well.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

I wanted to add that I find his appathy to both reward and punishment as especially disconcerting. When I reached that point is when I started to become a dnager to myself and I was only 10.

 

[eks6426]

brazen irish--Tell me more about the depression. What are the signs? How would I get someone to diagnose this? He''s been to numerous psycholgists and counselors and not once has anyone brought this up.

 

[Sabine]

Just an idea to help him learn the value of persistence...get him some sort of object that he would want but that involves work in order for it to work (I''m thinking a bike that needs to be put together...or even a video game system that totally needs to be hooked up) that is within his capabilities but would be challenging. He has to work to get it to work, but in the end he will really see the payoff of struggling and being frustrated.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

For my diagnosis, my mother took me to a child phscyologist. She gave me a questionare with a lot of things that seem unrelated to depression. She then had a talk with my parents about my problems and then a talk with me.
I asked my aunt who has a Phd in psych and here were some of the most common and important symptoms in children. Children rarely have all of them, but I know I had quite a few:
apathy
impaired concentration
feelings of worthlessness
easily frustrated
frequent and/or unexplained crying
control issues. Does he get inordanately upset when he doesn't get his way or people don't do what he tells them?
fear of failure
social problems like a few friends or frequently changing friends, etc
Frequent illness or complaints of illness. Usually, this is to get out of school but goes well beyond just not wanting to go in like many kids. I had coughing fits and stomach aches that wouldn't go away and I would come up with symptom I could to get out of school
a great deal of sleep or very little
A huge appitite or a very small one
free floating or unwaranted guilt

My aunt also tells me that deprression in youngs boys is far more common than in girls at that age. You might find these links helpful as well.
http://www.webmd.com/depression/features/childhood_depression
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/depression/depression-in-children-and-adolescents.shtml

 

[Independent Gal]

Hi Island, depression also came to mind for me. I would not take him to a school counselor though. Instead to a psychologist for children. But actually, the first thing I would do is to sit him down and ask him what is wrong. He may be able to tell you. He may not. I'm pretty sure I couldn't at that age, but I sure remember being pretty unhappy! But if he IS able to tell you, you're halfway home.

A caveat to start out - please don't take this as vain. I'm only saying these things to try to help Island.

I was also an 'exceptional' child who had a lot of trouble with school. I never did all THAT well until I went to college, and had stages (like in high school) where I was barely passing and never going to class. If it's any comfort, I went on to finish second in my class at a prestigious college, and to do a Ph.D. degree at one of the best universities in the world in record time. Which is to say, I know you're worried now, but it will be OK. My gifted siblings have consistently had trouble with being focused in school too. School is one thing. College is another. The wide world a third. I still hate the very THOUGHT of school. It just wasn't an environment that worked for me. But I've flourishd in every environment since. The point being, you shouldn't take the fact that he is not flourishing here and now to be any indicator of how happy or successful he will be in life in general.

Anyway, one thing that helped me a lot as time went on was learning about what it was like for other very bright children. If your son is reading at a 10th grade level, how about buying some books about gifted children and reading them together with him? It might help him feel like he is not alone.

Another idea: is there a hobby or interest he has that can be pursued? Music? A sport? Often, self-esteem is hugely boosted in kids if they are doing well at something outside of school. For years when I was a child, singing basically saved me from misery. And since then I've read studies supporting this statistically. An intellectual hobby could help too. Is he interested in astronomy maybe? Get him a telescope and some sky charts! You know, that kind of thing.

I can imagine how hard it is for you. But it will be ok. I would explore the depression possibility though.

Oh, and JAS I am so trying your 15 minute method for myself when I am not sufficiently focused!

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

If you have not already, I encourage you to have your son checked by a Pediatrician to r/o any medical concerns. From there they can refer you to a Psychologist specializing in these kind of learning issues or a Developmental Pediatrician (yes, this is a specialty too!).

cheers--Sharon

 

[sera]

A problem could very well be what was already suggested about gifted children not wanting to put in the effort when something doesn't come easy. It was a joke with college classmates that I learned by osmosis- they would study but I aced the tests. I remember one time being very unpleasantly surprised when I realized I might have to look at the Physics book to get a better grade. From a very young age (and even now) I would get very annoyed with myself if I immediately didn't get something. So, that could be an issue with him.

I've used the work-break-work-break method jas suggested. A year ago it was a struggle to get my ADHD student to work several minutes at a time before a sensory break (not just a sitting break but actually doing something). Time was gradually increased; now, he is only taking breaks at regular recess times with the other kids.

I worked with a student with Asperger's this summer who would absolutely flip out if something was timed. He would sit and stare as his mind wandered in his own world... he waste all the time, then the last few minutes, flip out! A timer would not work with him, but with my current student a timer works great.

The thing that sometimes helps with motivation is a token reward system. You gotta find out what he wants to earn. Currently I use a daily reward and a weekly reward. For both, a certain # of tokens must be earned for doing work, following directions, etc. The tokens can be represented by check marks, gold coins he collects or stickers on an incentive chart (depending on child and their age). The rewards depend on the interests of the child, it could be a book, a toy, extra computer time or whatever. Of course there are times when my student has been full steam ahead with ADHD and no impulse control, so it didn't matter what the rewards (or consequences), were. But, for the most part it's worked for met. Everyone (even kids) have their price... I may refuse to eat a worm, but ya better believe for a mil I would be breakin' out the salt and pepper. You just gotta find the price/motivation and be flexible as prices fluctuate/motivations change.

Could a visual schedule of what he needs daily be made rather than trying to comprise the list as he gets things? As things are checked off, that is like a token.

 

[diamondfan]

I hate to say this but motivation must come from within. If external rewards and punishment are not helping than it is tough to really know what to do. At least he is super smart so that is a great thing. I would honestly suggest some therapy so that maybe he can identify within himself the motivation. Maybe there are some non academic or puberty related things that are distracting him in some way? Make sure the work is done in more managable spurts, allow him to take a break now and then too.

My 12 year was in a very similar boat. I did not get notes from way back, which is why his lack of effort and motivation in certain classes last year, 5th grade, blew my mind. He would rush through work and do a very half assed job, but be fine with his efforts. He would tell me he had no work or argue that his efforts were good, and I felt good was not enough. He would then get on the computer and or watch tv or listen to music. Even when all that was severely limited on school nights he would just sort of ignore things. He does love reading and reads things even my 15 year old won't, but he would read books NOT assigned at school and just fritter away the evening. I have two other kids so it was hard to stand over him all the time. He is very smart and does well when he feels like it. If he had to work a little more than he wanted or do something he did not want to, he blew it off. I pay a lot for private school and know he CAN do it, so I told him this year was important. He loves his pals and is very active socially, so I knew that telling him that I pay very high taxes for good public schools in our neighborhood and if he persisted or wanted to just do so so in school than I did not feel the need to pay 24,000 a year plus meal plans and private busing (totals nearly 30,000 after taxes). He could just go to the very good public school down the street and call it a day. I was not trying to be harsh or threatening with him, just real. This year, he has great teachers and is really doing well. And is happy to be doing so. The therapist did say that while of course you praise a kid for a job well done, you should not over emphasis the external approval, because the child needs intrinsic motivation for it to really stick. Parental approval is important but should not be all that is making the child do well. Like all things, whatever they may be, wanting to do it from inside really makes a huge difference for the long haul. I know it is hard to be patient when you know a child is very capable and does not meet those abilities, for whatever the reason. Another option to augment things is a tutor who comes to your home, sits down and helps him through things. Takes you out of the mix. Once I was able to stop being the homework police it made our interactions much better.

 

[Haven]

IslandDreams--I''m sorry to hear that you''re having such a difficult time with your son.

If I were his teacher, I would definitely break up all of his work into smaller chunks and only give him the small chunks, one at a time, until he completed each lesson/activity/assignment. It sounds like this isn''t merely an issue of your son being bored because he isn''t challenged, it sounds like he is overwhelmed by the work and therefore doesn''t even want to begin the work in the first place.
His teacher appears to be very involved, and I''m sure she''s already done this chunking method, but if not I''d ask if she could try to do this. I''m sure there are children in her class already who have IEPs that require this type of accommodation anyway, so this shouldn''t be much extra work for her.

As for the gifted issue, I''ve worked with gifted children as an educator for the gifted for several years, and grew up attending gifted programs myself. I will say that schools are very quick to classify children as gifted nowadays even if they are not truly gifted, and if this is not the case and your son is in need of other forms of enrichment, this classification can be just as damaging as expectations that are too low. Just a word of caution--I''d hate to see your son miss out on important services because he''s misdiagnosed.

 

[sera]

Oh yeah, chunking the work is great too! Sometimes I will even chunk a page by folding it in half or covering up everything but problem, etc.

 

[Kaleigh]

IslandDreams, it sounds like something is bothering him. You need to get at the source, I'd take him to a child psychologist. Hard to tell if it's depression or apathy. You need the guidance of a professional to help you get this sorted out. 10 is a tough age, how is he with friends, does he have activites outside of school? What are his passions? He sounds like a very bright boy, so it's a matter of finding what will make him want to achieve his full potential. WANT is the key word here. Best of luck, let us know what you find out. Hugs.

 

[diamondfan]

Kaleigh brings up a good point. How is he with friends and in general otherwise? My son was thought to have a bit of a situational depression, he is the middle kid and with an older and younger brother (oldest has tourettes and ocd and anxiety and is awesome but takes a lot of my energies, as does the little guy cause he is young) it seemed he was feeling lost and not sure of his place. How is his overall attitude at school besides the work itself? These things are very crucial. Good luck, you have lots of good support and information here, and I am sure it will all be fine!

 

[jas]

Hi Island. Sorry it took me so long to get back on this thread. Life is screwy for me right now.

Anyway, it seems like you are getting a lot of really great suggestions here, almost all of which need your son''s direct input, which is just a great thing. The brilliance of Indy''s suggestion of sitting him down and asking him what''s up should not be ignored. It''s the best starting point! If you can initiate a dialog saying, "I love you, we need to change some behaviors, here are some suggestions I have, I''d love to hear what you think might work..." would be very revealing. It''s entirely possible that he get frustrated and say "I don''t know!" at which point it would not hurt to bring in a counselor...they are trained problem solvers!

It''s tough with gifted students (and Haven, please correct me if I''m mistaken) but as I recall, many really bright kids develop at the same emotional rate as other kids; this can create some difficulties, as they are articulate, brilliant young people who can thrive adult conversations and some situations, but ultimately still view the world as a ten year old (or whatever age they are).

Anyway, I applaud you and wish you lots of success. If, as was mentioned, the external motivations do not work, please don''t give up...bring in a team for your son (his own entourage) if you wish, and know that everything will work out for the best!

PS Indy -- I use the 15 minutes myself...I get so bored so easily that I can start to "drift" in the middle of work and a 1 hour task can take me 5 hours. The 15 minutes helps a ton...I can stay focused that long and I get to reward myself! Whee!

 

[crown1]

hi! you have received lots of very good advise. i agree that you must rule out physical, mental or emotional problems. after trying all of the good advice if you don''t get a good result you may want to try letting him suffer the consequences of his own actions. i think it is sometimes feast or famine for us humans we either aren''t doing enough to help our children or we are helping them too much. it is a fine line and hard to get it just right. i applaud your love and concern for your son and hope that he is able to get a handle on things and enjoy his life.

 

[eks6426]

Thank you everyone for your words of encouragement and advice. I value the advice of my fellow PSers as you often have insights that I miss.

I never really considered that my son might be depressed so I will definitely be checking into this option. I''ve used a variety of school psychologists in the past to discuss these issues, but I think I will go through my work EAP to find a counselor not associated with the school. I have already talked to the pediatrician who pretty much said, "he''ll grow out of it, boys are like this..." I''ve tried to ask him non confrontational ways what is wrong. I''ve done it outside of the house hoping to get his defenses down. He just says, "I don''t know and shrugs" then changes the subject. My husband has tried. His grandparents have tried.

The testing I had done to see if there was a learning disability showed that my son was gifted in things like reading & vocabularly...hence the reading at a 10th grade level. He tests at or slightly above on some other areas such as basic math and recognizing patterns. So, I know his "giftedness" is not total...more just in one area. He has an incredibly hard time writing anything even though he could speak in great detail about the subject. For example, last night he had to write a 6-8 sentence paragraph recapping a book..main problem and resolution. It took him 1 hour and 23 minutes...with me having to harass him the whole time.

He has a few outside school activites...playing the saxophone, soccer in the fall and cub scouts. But none of these are his burning passion. He does reasonably well at all of them but he really wouldn''t care if he dropped out. I keep trying to find something, anything that would be his passion but so far haven''t hit on anything.

He does go to one of the best private schools in my area. Public schools are horrible. I have discussed the idea of transferring him out of his private school with all his friends, but he really doesn''t care...just says, "whatever" and shrugs. And I honestly don''t want to do that because I think it will only make the situation worse.

As for friends, he is generally a very friendly, outgoing kid. Other parents love him because he is polite and speaks very well. Peer wise, he considers himself a "geek" (his words). He tends to befriend the more troubled kids at school. At the same time he has friends that are more popular. He''s sort of a drifter with friends...not really the kid who has one or 2 best friends but more the one who has maybe 10 or so casual friends. I see him liking to be "right" all the time and he will go out of his way to point out why a friend is not right and he is...which needless to say doesn''t make the other kid like him much.

Diamondfan hit the nail on the head...the motivation really needs to come from within. I can monitor homework and force him to complete stuff over and over but it doesn''t really solve the problem that he needs to WANT to do well for himself. I''ve tried letting him suffer the consequences of not doing things...result was Fs in some of his classes that the grade was heavily based on homework. Did he care? Not a bit! So, not sure what the natural consquences can be that will make him care? I don''t really have anything more I can take away from him. He doesn''t really ever watch TV or play video games because he takes so long doing homework at night that there is no time to do anything fun.

It''s like there is a switch inside of him that needs to flipped to the "ON" for caring about school work.

 

[Independent Gal]

Just another encouraging thing: my middle brother was like your son at that age with writing. He is brilliant and had, at that age, a vocabulary way bigger than most adults. But he HATED to have to write anything and found it incredibly painful and difficult. There were endless battles with my mom. Homework took forever. Just as you describe.

The ironic happy ending: guess what he does for a living now? Why, he''s a writer of course!

Which is just another reminder that sure, it''s very difficult for him and for you now, but everything is bound to turn out fine.

 

[lumpkin]

IslandDreams, do you and I have the same 10 year old boy??? I could have written all your posts in this thread regarding the homework issues. And also, my son does tend to befriend kids that have "issues" -- not all of his friends, by any means, and most are very well adjusted kids, but he always wants to take that one kid under his wing. It''s something I love about him and dread for him all at the same time.

And I actually have spanked (but not with a willow branch!).

Trust me, as someone who tried it, it doesn''t work. He''s not TRYing to be a PIA. He really isn''t. His doctor says he gets stuck. Sometimes the best thing for me to do is let him get a bad grade one quarter. He got a C in math second quarter and over winter break we had a few discussions about breaking things down into littler pieces so it isn''t overwhelming. Also, to ask for help BEFORE he gets frustrated and overwhelmed.

I''m just backing out of the responsibility for his grades. I''ve told him they are up to him. If he needs/wants help I''ll make sure he gets it, but it''s his responsibility to do the work and let me know if he''s having trouble. He''s ten and it''s that time when school work ramps up a lot more than before, so he has to make up his own mind that he''s going to work at it.

The other thing is I will take away certain things, like his game cube or nintendo. Also, if he wants to have friends over, he has to get homework done first.

I think it''s just one of those ongoing battles.

 

[Independent Gal]

Another thought: what about more unusual hobbies? Maybe he''d find raptors or other birds really cool or interesting... is there a zoo or nature preserve near you? What about collecting something? stamps, coins, old clocks or watches...? maybe he might find sailing or ship-building or something like that interesting? or the Ancient Egyptians? or ... who knows what?

If you have time, maybe you could plan an outing each week that would expose him to something different. Then see if he latches on to something.

Just a thought!

 

[crown1]

Date: 1/29/2008 1:30:05 PM
Author: IslandDreams
Thank you everyone for your words of encouragement and advice. I value the advice of my fellow PSers as you often have insights that I miss.


I never really considered that my son might be depressed so I will definitely be checking into this option. I've used a variety of school psychologists in the past to discuss these issues, but I think I will go through my work EAP to find a counselor not associated with the school. I have already talked to the pediatrician who pretty much said, 'he'll grow out of it, boys are like this...' I've tried to ask him non confrontational ways what is wrong. I've done it outside of the house hoping to get his defenses down. He just says, 'I don't know and shrugs' then changes the subject. My husband has tried. His grandparents have tried.


The testing I had done to see if there was a learning disability showed that my son was gifted in things like reading & vocabularly...hence the reading at a 10th grade level. He tests at or slightly above on some other areas such as basic math and recognizing patterns. So, I know his 'giftedness' is not total...more just in one area. He has an incredibly hard time writing anything even though he could speak in great detail about the subject. For example, last night he had to write a 6-8 sentence paragraph recapping a book..main problem and resolution. It took him 1 hour and 23 minutes...with me having to harass him the whole time.


He has a few outside school activites...playing the saxophone, soccer in the fall and cub scouts. But none of these are his burning passion. He does reasonably well at all of them but he really wouldn't care if he dropped out. I keep trying to find something, anything that would be his passion but so far haven't hit on anything.


He does go to one of the best private schools in my area. Public schools are horrible. I have discussed the idea of transferring him out of his private school with all his friends, but he really doesn't care...just says, 'whatever' and shrugs. And I honestly don't want to do that because I think it will only make the situation worse.


As for friends, he is generally a very friendly, outgoing kid. Other parents love him because he is polite and speaks very well. Peer wise, he considers himself a 'geek' (his words). He tends to befriend the more troubled kids at school. At the same time he has friends that are more popular. He's sort of a drifter with friends...not really the kid who has one or 2 best friends but more the one who has maybe 10 or so casual friends. I see him liking to be 'right' all the time and he will go out of his way to point out why a friend is not right and he is...which needless to say doesn't make the other kid like him much.


Diamondfan hit the nail on the head...the motivation really needs to come from within. I can monitor homework and force him to complete stuff over and over but it doesn't really solve the problem that he needs to WANT to do well for himself. I've tried letting him suffer the consequences of not doing things...result was Fs in some of his classes that the grade was heavily based on homework. Did he care? Not a bit! So, not sure what the natural consquences can be that will make him care? I don't really have anything more I can take away from him. He doesn't really ever watch TV or play video games because he takes so long doing homework at night that there is no time to do anything fun.


It's like there is a switch inside of him that needs to flipped to the 'ON' for caring about school work.

i think that you have it. he has to want to do it and if he does not let him fail. i know it is you that will suffer from this but if he doesn't want to do the schoolwork then he may have to stay back a grade. better that he learns that he must use self discipline if there is no reason he can not. as hard as it is to accept if he does not learn to self motivate he may have to repeat the same class again. i think maturity will take care of some of this but if not there are talented and gifted people in this world that never learn to follow someone else's timetable and don't care what others think.

 

[diamondfan]

Island, his giftedness is very similar to when we tested my 15 year old years ago. Most kids, if they are gifted, are asynchronously gifted, meaning in one type of area. For my son, he was grade level or a bit above on performance and had a very high (30 plus points) higher verbal IQ. He overall could manage (other than the ocd and tourettes which were not yet diagnosed) but certainly verbal things and those types of tasks were cakewalks for him. In middle school I put him in a great class with a huge emphasis on writing style, since most things can really use a great writing basis. He now is a very accomplished writer, loves to read, so along with his great skills with analysis and comprehension etc, he now has a very solid writing foundation. There is so much writing in high school that is was a great thing to do.

It is problematic when he does not feel negative issues from not performing. I am sure he will get there at some point but it is so frustrating right now to watch this.

I hope that it all works out, but do not get to frustrated, it should all work out in the long run. Sometimes backing off and getting outside help can make a huge difference.

 

[roppongi]

Island Dreams....

Is the class too big? Is he board, should he be in the 6th grade instead? Is this the first year you have noticed this problem? What kind of student has he been up to this point? Besides the counselor are they offering you any other assistance?

I also have a ten year old boy in a very small private school, there are only 13 boys in his class and they have been together since kindergarten and most of them will go on to high school together. These boys leverage off of each other to keep each other motivated and encouraged. When school gets out at 3:00 pm, they meet in the common room and they all do their homework together. There is a teacher in the room to help them if they have any questions. Once the homework is finished they can run around, but not before the homework is finished.

On the outside we have hired an academic coach to keep him organized and on track for all of his classes. This woman is a God send and has been with our son for the past two years. She has given him such confidence and he loves school. As parents go, we are quite strict and do not allow any play dates or television during the week and we are the only family in his class that does not own a playstation, xbox, wii etc....

What has really helped my son is flash cards. When he reads a chapter he summarizes the entire chapter on to flash cards. Writing it down help him retain the information and it keeps him on track. He has a science test on Thursday that will cover chapters 1 - 4, because he has been summarizing the chapters for the past two weeks, he is not at all nervous. He feels good and not stressed.

Please don''t flame me, but I don''t believe in the willow switch, there must be another way that you can connect with him. I am so sorry that you are going through this as I can hear the pain and frustration in your voice. It could be that he needs a new school or a different environment.


Roppongi

 

[phoenixgirl]

It does sound like he has developed not caring/trying as a misguided coping mechanism. As an adult, I realize that I did this as well (not with academics but with sports and activities). I was used to being the best academically and didn't want to be mediocre in other arenas, so I just didn't try. To this day I have to ask myself, what would be so bad about trying that new activity? when my initial reaction is to avoid it.

I've taught 7th and 10th grades and see these same issues. I'm not a parent, so I surely can't comprehend how difficult it is to decide how much to encourage/help/redirect your child versus how much to let him/her learn from failure.

To me, 5th grade seems a little young to cut your child loose and let him sink or swim (i.e. stop making him do his work and let him fail a subject or grade). On the other hand, perhaps it's better to learn this lesson now with middle school and high school on the horizon then learn it later when grades will be on the transcripts he's sending to colleges.

I've seen parents on both ends of the spectrum (in my honors classes -- sadly, there's not much parental involvement in the other classes). Last year I had a parent blame me when she found out her daughter was failing around this time last year. Why hadn't I called her to personally inform her of this fact? When I said that I assumed she was checking her daughter's grades online, she said she "didn't have time," and when I pointed out that report cards and interims had been sent home four times already, she said that her daughter had told her the school never printed her report cards!

I really wasn't trying to be rude, but you can't expect a high school teacher with 100+ students to call and say, "You saw that F on the report card, right?" Once I had calmed the mother down by keeping all my snide remarks to myself, she admitted that her daughter had been lying about school and failing classes since 7th grade . . . Certainly more parental involvement couldn't have hurt in her case. I certainly wouldn't be buying any stories about not printing report cards from a student who had been failing classes for three years.

On the other side, I've got the regular emailers. My website is completely up to date. I provide the due date of everything except occasional in class assignments before each quarter. I export grades regularly. But it's . . . is this really due this date or was it rescheduled, or why haven't you put in extra credit for next quarter yet (because it's still last quarter!), or my child is on the jury in the class trial, please write back and tell me what she is supposed to do (it was on the handout! and the handout can be downloaded from my website! and the website itself explains it! and who can't figure out what to do on a jury?). I finally got one mom to stop emailing by responding simply, "Yes, my website is up to date" or "The assignment was handed out in class and can be downloaded from my website" over and over again. Usually the kids are doing just fine performing at a level commensurate with their abilities and effort, but the parents are trying to squeeze an A out of a B student. The aforementioned mother actually wrote that her daughter was "in the class to be successful as always by any means necessary." Yeesh!

It doesn't sound like you are at either extreme, which is a good thing!

With your son, I'm wondering if a teenaged or young 20's male mentor would help? Somehow who could play basketball with him (or whatever) and be an example of someone a little older who can share life lessons with him? Someone who can cheer him on if he does well on something and help him study if he's struggling? My husband failed 6th grade English (heck, I wasn't sure he was going to graduate college for a while there), and I think hearing from another male like my husband -- someone who isn't old enough to be his parent but who also hasn't always been "perfect" -- might give him a new perspective. If you can't think of someone you know, you could contact an honors society at a nearby high school or college and ask if they have anyone like that who could be a tutor. Our honor society kids have to do a certain amount of community service, and for some of them it's tutoring elementary school students.

 

[diamondfan]

Maybe see if the school has academic tutoring with a high school peer whom your son can look up to. Once I told my 12 year old that he could still be a cool and popular kid while making good efforts at school, and he saw some older kids who were smart, popular, on sports teams etc, he realized he could really manage it all. I also told him that his grades were personal, he did not have to be talking about them etc, and could just be with his friends as before, and not be someone who was overly focused or uptight about grades, or be comparing himself to others. It was about his best and his efforts and nothing else.