How to justify ACA

[Voyager]

I''ve been looking online at round stones for an engagement ring. It seems like a 1ct ACA in the H-I VS2/SI1 range ends up at around $5500-6000. I haven''t seen an ACA in person but I''m confident it''s fantastic.

Shopping locally, one jewelers prices on what they insist are the best cut stones is much better than what WF has. I can get a 1.2ct stone for $5000. Now I''m confident WF prices are competitive, so something must be missing. The jewelers stones are EGL certified and "hearts & arrows" is printed on the card. After looking at a few different stones they are coming up around 2.2 on the cut adviser. The jeweler calls them an Excellent Ideal Cut. Here is one:

Weight 1.21cts, J, VS21
Total Depth 62.4%
Table Width 58%
Crown Height 15%
Pavilion Depth 43%
Polish/Symm Excellent
Cutlet None
Flour None
Girdle Med Fac
Grain Nil

When looking at it under the H&A viewer, the top of the hearts look great but the bottoms are stretched out towards the center and blur together. I attributed this to their flimsy viewer, but maybe it''s a real flaw.

I know that you get what you pay for and I don''t have a problem getting the more expensive, but smaller, ACA stone if it''s really that much better. I''ve specifically asked for the best cut stones and been told using charts and graphs that it doesn''t get any better than this. I''m still suspect. They''re friendly and willing to work with me but I don''t know what more to ask for.

 

[angeline]

Hi there,

Do a search on EGL. It's a loose lab so the color and clarity may be lower by a grade or two than the comparable AGS cert. Also read up on what true H&A are. A diamond can be H&A and still have bad proportions. (bad to PS'ers that is!) It doesn't guarantee great light return. If all else is in place (i.e. the proportions of the crown angles, pavilion angles, table, depth, stars and lgf and the variances on these angles) then the H&A can be an added benefit. Also just cos someone writes it on the card doesn't mean diddly.



I would suggest doing some reading on cut in the tutorials above in the 'Knowledge' menu. Also read up on Idealscopes and light return. Use the search tool to find info on H&A, EGL etc. There's a TON of knowledge here!

Good luck! You will find a GREAT stone at a GREAT price if you spend a little time learning here first.

 

[Skippy123]

If you do a search on EGL's it seems that they tend to be off in color and clarity. Whiteflash has strict standards for their ACA's. Also, have you looked at other PS vendors? They have some great H&A stones too. Welcome to Pricescope by the way!

 

[neatfreak]

I doubt it is their viewer. It's not like there is an international group that has standards you have to meet to call your stones H&A's. There are a lot of variations on H&A's that aren't realllllly H&A's. Sounds like that is what your jeweler has. EGL is also known for soft grading in other areas,so make sure you are still comfortable paying your jeweler's price if the stone really was 1-2 color and/or clarity grades off too. THAT alone can make a huge difference in price. So compare your jeweler's price if that stone was REALLY COMPARABLE to an AGS graded K-L and a SI1/SI2...price isn't so competitive anymore is it?

WF also has a lifetime tradeup policy if it's something you think you might use...

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/21/2008 10:57:46 AM
Author:Voyager
I''ve been looking online at round stones for an engagement ring. It seems like a 1ct ACA in the H-I VS2/SI1 range ends up at around $5500-6000. I haven''t seen an ACA in person but I''m confident it''s fantastic.

Shopping locally, one jewelers prices on what they insist are the best cut stones is much better than what WF has. I can get a 1.2ct stone for $5000. Now I''m confident WF prices are competitive, so something must be missing. The jewelers stones are EGL certified and ''hearts & arrows'' is printed on the card. After looking at a few different stones they are coming up around 2.2 on the cut adviser. The jeweler calls them an Excellent Ideal Cut. Here is one:

Weight 1.21cts, J, VS21
Total Depth 62.4%
Table Width 58%
Crown Height 15%
Pavilion Depth 43%
Polish/Symm Excellent
Cutlet None
Flour None
Girdle Med Fac
Grain Nil

When looking at it under the H&A viewer, the top of the hearts look great but the bottoms are stretched out towards the center and blur together. I attributed this to their flimsy viewer, but maybe it''s a real flaw.

I know that you get what you pay for and I don''t have a problem getting the more expensive, but smaller, ACA stone if it''s really that much better. I''ve specifically asked for the best cut stones and been told using charts and graphs that it doesn''t get any better than this. I''m still suspect. They''re friendly and willing to work with me but I don''t know what more to ask for.

Your stink detector is working just fine.

EGL''s are not normally all that they are cracked up to be, and EGL has very loose standards for what constitutes a Hearts and arrows pattern as well. Your retailer knows this, that is why he is using EGL papered diamonds to tempt you with.

At the wholesale level EGL certs sell for a 35 - 55% discount from a GIA or AGS papered diamond. Diamond dealers and retailers, at least the intelligent ones know this, and they also know that most consumers do NOT know this, they count on it.

Wink

 

[Voyager]

Thanks everyone! I''ve done a lot of research and reading online, I just want to make sure that my thoughts are correct. I''ve tried to ask this jeweler for better cut diamonds and the response is always "These are the best, look at the cut stats, it''s all perfect". They would be happy to find a better cut diamond and charge me more money, but they don''t seem to think a better cut exists. They can only move me up in color/clarity/weight, which I''m not as concerned about. Sounds like its best to stick with an ACA or one of the other popular vendors here, it sounds like it will be well worth the extra cost even sight unseen.

Wink - thanks for your reply here, but also for all the other helpful responses I''ve read in other posts. EGL has proven itself to be a little loose on grading, but I wasn''t sure if that applied to cut as well. Seems like any serious ideal diamond vendor is going to stick to GIA/AGS paperwork.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 9/21/2008 2:17:52 PM
Author: Voyager
Thanks everyone! I''ve done a lot of research and reading online, I just want to make sure that my thoughts are correct. I''ve tried to ask this jeweler for better cut diamonds and the response is always ''These are the best, look at the cut stats, it''s all perfect''. They would be happy to find a better cut diamond and charge me more money, but they don''t seem to think a better cut exists. They can only move me up in color/clarity/weight, which I''m not as concerned about. Sounds like its best to stick with an ACA or one of the other popular vendors here, it sounds like it will be well worth the extra cost even sight unseen.

Wink - thanks for your reply here, but also for all the other helpful responses I''ve read in other posts. EGL has proven itself to be a little loose on grading, but I wasn''t sure if that applied to cut as well. Seems like any serious ideal diamond vendor is going to stick to GIA/AGS paperwork.

Exactly!!! I would not trust that jeweler. I''d have more respect for him if he''d just say that his supplier can only access EGL rather than lie and say they are equivalent or better than GIA/AGS H&A.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/21/2008 2:17:52 PM
Author: Voyager
Thanks everyone! I''ve done a lot of research and reading online, I just want to make sure that my thoughts are correct. I''ve tried to ask this jeweler for better cut diamonds and the response is always ''These are the best, look at the cut stats, it''s all perfect''. They would be happy to find a better cut diamond and charge me more money, but they don''t seem to think a better cut exists. They can only move me up in color/clarity/weight, which I''m not as concerned about. Sounds like its best to stick with an ACA or one of the other popular vendors here, it sounds like it will be well worth the extra cost even sight unseen.

Wink - thanks for your reply here, but also for all the other helpful responses I''ve read in other posts. EGL has proven itself to be a little loose on grading, but I wasn''t sure if that applied to cut as well. Seems like any serious ideal diamond vendor is going to stick to GIA/AGS paperwork.

Thank you for your kind words. If John Pollard was not on an aeroplane headed to Antwerpen he would probably come on with a probable view of what your diamond looks like in diamcalc. While it may be a well to very well cut diamond we do not have the numbers that we need to prove/disprove it. Suffice it for me is the fact that your jeweler has already failed to truthfully discuss these diamonds with you.

Of course I may be being too harsh, he may be one of the myriad of jewelers who really do not know.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/21/2008 4:14:21 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 9/21/2008 2:17:52 PM
Author: Voyager
Thanks everyone! I''ve done a lot of research and reading online, I just want to make sure that my thoughts are correct. I''ve tried to ask this jeweler for better cut diamonds and the response is always ''These are the best, look at the cut stats, it''s all perfect''. They would be happy to find a better cut diamond and charge me more money, but they don''t seem to think a better cut exists. They can only move me up in color/clarity/weight, which I''m not as concerned about. Sounds like its best to stick with an ACA or one of the other popular vendors here, it sounds like it will be well worth the extra cost even sight unseen.

Wink - thanks for your reply here, but also for all the other helpful responses I''ve read in other posts. EGL has proven itself to be a little loose on grading, but I wasn''t sure if that applied to cut as well. Seems like any serious ideal diamond vendor is going to stick to GIA/AGS paperwork.

Exactly!!! I would not trust that jeweler. I''d have more respect for him if he''d just say that his supplier can only access EGL rather than lie and say they are equivalent or better than GIA/AGS H&A.

Agreed, see post above.

 

[strmrdr]

JP is much better looking than me but here goes....
Did the hearts look like this?

 

[strmrdr]

Converting the percentages to angles comes out 35.5/40.7 which isn't that bad but not a great match to the lgf% if the hearts look like above...
Here is the IS.. It would at best be a AGS1-2 GIA EX... not that bad at all.... but I am not saying the specific diamond is cut like this as that is impossible for me to know.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/21/2008 5:57:42 PM
Author: strmrdr
JP is much better looking than me but here goes....
Did the hearts look like this?

I''ll nae git inta the looks debate laddy, but that is probably what the pictures from John would look like!

Wink in his best Scottish brogue. (Which is NOT very good)

 

[agc]

OP''s description of stretched bottoms that blur together make me think the same thing as Karl as far as the probable combo mismatched with too short of lgf''s.

 

[Voyager]

Karl,

The hearts did not look as well-defined as that. They all looked like the top heart in the fourth diamond from the left in this picture:

I wasn't sure if this was a function of the toy-like scope I was using, or if was really a bad sign.

I think the best thing to do would be to spend more on a smaller ACA type stone. Sounds like I won't regret it.

 

[agc]

Date: 9/21/2008 9:13:49 PM
Author: Voyager
Karl,

The hearts did not look as well-defined as that. They all looked like the top heart in the fourth diamond from the left in this picture:

I wasn''t sure if this was a function of the toy-like scope I was using, or if was really a bad sign.

I think the best thing to do would be to spend more on a smaller ACA type stone. Sounds like I won''t regret it.

That is caused by really short lgf''s.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 9/21/2008 9:17:38 PM
Author: agc

Date: 9/21/2008 9:13:49 PM
Author: Voyager
Karl,

The hearts did not look as well-defined as that. They all looked like the top heart in the fourth diamond from the left in this picture:

I wasn't sure if this was a function of the toy-like scope I was using, or if was really a bad sign.

I think the best thing to do would be to spend more on a smaller ACA type stone. Sounds like I won't regret it.

That is caused by really short lgf's.

Voyager: Sir John refers to that type of heart as a lawn dart...

You want to look at a combination of pattern, proportion and light performance--with AGS or GIA grading reports. I chose a ACA because I wanted the best cut possible. You will also find such cuts at GOG and Infinity. I first looked at HOF, but was not willing to pay the premium; however, it's a good way to get some education on well-cut, H&A, AGS0 stones. You will need to decide what parameters are important to you in a diamond. To most PSer, it's cut. If the best your jeweler can get for you are EGL graded diamonds, I would look elsewhere.

BTW: my 1.234ct ACA [G VS2] was ~$9400. You will pay a premium for this type of stone. A similar HOF was ~$18,000. These prices are from early 2007 and are likely to be higher now.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/21/2008 9:13:49 PM
Author: Voyager
Karl,


The hearts did not look as well-defined as that. They all looked like the top heart in the fourth diamond from the left in this picture:

I wasn't sure if this was a function of the toy-like scope I was using, or if was really a bad sign.


I think the best thing to do would be to spend more on a smaller ACA type stone. Sounds like I won't regret it.

Interesting its pretty close to being an oec.
Not a bad thing.
Need an IS image to tell you more other than it would have a totally different look than an ACA or similar stone.

 

[tlroyce1]

Who grades the diamond as a H&A? Is it the vendor, or is it the GIA bc I have seen other vendors advertise H&A and I am just wondering.

Also, if a vendor does not have an idealscope image available for the H&A, can you assume that because its H&A it is not leaking any light?

Thanks
-Terry

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 9/28/2008 2:40:26 PM
Author: tlroyce1
Who grades the diamond as a H&A? Is it the vendor, or is it the GIA bc I have seen other vendors advertise H&A and I am just wondering.


Also, if a vendor does not have an idealscope image available for the H&A, can you assume that because its H&A it is not leaking any light?


Thanks

-Terry

It's the vendor usually. And no, don't assume ANYTHING about it. There's a big difference between true, tight, H&A cuts and the loosey goosey kind of sort of H&A stones that many jewelers tout as true H&A's.

 

[tlroyce1]

neat freak thanks for the reply. I had seen some on james allen and usa certified but there was no other information to go along with it, and was curious.

Thanks

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/28/2008 2:40:26 PM
Author: tlroyce1
Who grades the diamond as a H&A? Is it the vendor, or is it the GIA bc I have seen other vendors advertise H&A and I am just wondering.

Also, if a vendor does not have an idealscope image available for the H&A, can you assume that because its H&A it is not leaking any light?

Thanks
-Terry

So far neither the GIA or AGS is awarding the Hearts and Arrows designation. In Europe, the HRD laboratory has just started awarding the designation.

NO! In fact, you can not even assume that it is H&A. There are many people calling stones H&A that should NOT be called H&A. There ae even some of the less well respected or known labs that refer to stones has H&A that have pitiful patterns unworthy of being called H&A. It is unfortunate, but it is also unlikely to change. Seems that whenever more than a dollar ninety-five is involved there is someone willing to lie to get it.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/28/2008 3:06:49 PM
Author: tlroyce1
neat freak thanks for the reply. I had seen some on james allen and usa certified but there was no other information to go along with it, and was curious.

Thanks

If you look into the small print on the site there is a comment that they do not offer H&A viewer pictures as they believe it is not the picture that makes the H&A but rather an inspection by their qualified gemologist who says it is.

I, and others, have vociferously disagreed with this policy, believing it to be in error.

Wink

 

[tlroyce1]

Good information to know. I''m (hopefully) in the final stages of selecting a diamond. I am trying to figure out if I want to purchase a H&A diamond, or just get a well cut regular diamond, and get a slightly larger stone.

Also, if I do get a H&A stone, I will have to sacrifice on color and clarity. Most likely an I or J and SI1 and SI2. Would it be a waste of money to get such a well cut stone and sacrifice other qualities.

This is one such stone I am considering. It would be set in a palladium or platinum solitaire tiffany setting.
http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-1466950.htm#

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 9/28/2008 5:21:33 PM
Author: tlroyce1
Good information to know. I''m (hopefully) in the final stages of selecting a diamond. I am trying to figure out if I want to purchase a H&A diamond, or just get a well cut regular diamond, and get a slightly larger stone.


Also, if I do get a H&A stone, I will have to sacrifice on color and clarity. Most likely an I or J and SI1 and SI2. Would it be a waste of money to get such a well cut stone and sacrifice other qualities.


This is one such stone I am considering. It would be set in a palladium or platinum solitaire tiffany setting.

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-1466950.htm#

Assuming it''s eyeclean (make sure to ask) that will be a stunning stone. The nice thing is that WF has a lifetime upgrade policy too, so you can always get a better clarity and color later if you''d like. I doubt you''ll notice anything in an I unless you are really color sensitive.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/28/2008 5:21:33 PM
Author: tlroyce1
Good information to know. I''m (hopefully) in the final stages of selecting a diamond. I am trying to figure out if I want to purchase a H&A diamond, or just get a well cut regular diamond, and get a slightly larger stone.

Also, if I do get a H&A stone, I will have to sacrifice on color and clarity. Most likely an I or J and SI1 and SI2. Would it be a waste of money to get such a well cut stone and sacrifice other qualities.

This is one such stone I am considering. It would be set in a palladium or platinum solitaire tiffany setting.
http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-1466950.htm#

Without commenting on the stone you are looking on, I would like to say that I would be in STRONG disagreement with any comment that getting an I or J SI or SI2 would be a waste of money.

I have many many clients who have purchased even lower colored diamonds that were H&A quality cut and they are absolutely thrilled with the beauty of these diamonds.

In the near future I will have a series of videos on my site that will show some of these gems in the lower color and clarity grades to dispel such baseless fears.

This should not be construed to mean that it is foolish to spend money on the higher colors and clarities, rather that it is possible to have both a budget and a beautiful diamond of a larger size that is fabulously well cut if you are one of the multitude of people who enjoy the very slight yellow that is visible in the I or J color. I will not directly quote a client from this last week, that will be up to him, but his comment was to the effect that he observed greater dispersion against the faint yellow color than he did against the colorless diamonds he had seen.

Please understand that I am biased towards the H&A cut diamonds, but I think you will be very pleased in the years to come if you step up in cutting and worry not so much about nearly undetectable amounts of color or clarity.

Wink

 

[canuk-gal]

Date: 9/28/2008 5:21:33 PM
Author: tlroyce1

Also, if I do get a H&A stone, I will have to sacrifice on color and clarity. Most likely an I or J and SI1 and SI2. Would it be a waste of money to get such a well cut stone and sacrifice other qualities.

HI:

For certain, get exactly what you want; but it is my understanding that you can safely opt for "other" variables when your stone is very well cut. Notwithstanding, many folks don''t consider eye clean Si2''s and J color "sacrifices".

cheers--Sharon

 

[John P]

Great input from everyone here. I've nothing to add to the original question, except a chuckle at Strm & Wink.

Value is a personal decision, but certainly there is give and take involved. By ascending in cut quality one may be able to relax in color & sometimes clarity. By ascending in lab quality one can have greater confidence in the applied standards. Going with a brand or the hand-picked inventory of a strict cut specialist can bring consistency, and some places add purchase benefits that may open the door for future options, or simply bring peace of mind - which can be of value to some.

 

[Voyager]

Just to update on the original post, we ended up with an ACA stone, but just barely. I took the ACA stone in to the jeweler and three of us compared it side by side with the ideal cut that they had. In the end it was decided that the ACA had a tiny bit more sparkle, but there were many times that I couldn''t tell the two apart. It was a tough call, especially since the store stone was a quarter carat bigger for the same price.

 

[denverboy]

Date: 9/29/2008 9:03:48 AM
Author: Voyager
Just to update on the original post, we ended up with an ACA stone, but just barely. I took the ACA stone in to the jeweler and three of us compared it side by side with the ideal cut that they had. In the end it was decided that the ACA had a tiny bit more sparkle, but there were many times that I couldn''t tell the two apart. It was a tough call, especially since the store stone was a quarter carat bigger for the same price.

just wondering - did you compare them in different lighting conditions?

 

[Voyager]

just wondering - did you compare them in different lighting conditions?

To the extent possible in a jewelry store. We tried the bright lights, shadowed areas, and even what was left of the daylight outside. Certain areas the ACA was a just slightly more sparkly, other areas it was a wash.