How much do you trust your dog?

[Maisie]

I just went to the pet shop for some stuff for our new furbaby. Its the kind of store where you can take your dog in with you as long as its well behaved and on a lead. I had James with me (he is 5) and when we were waiting in the line there was a man with a German Shepherd dog. James loves dogs so he said ''Mummy come and see the doggy'', I looked at the man and he smiled at me so we went over to see the dog.

I let the dog sniff my hand and then James reached over to do the same. The dog didn''t react and again the owner smiled at us. When James tried to stroke the dog it went for his face. I grabbed him out of the way just in time and we moved well back. I know I should have asked the owner if the dog was safe to pet. That was my responsibility and I acknowledge that. The man didn''t say anything and just looked annoyed at James. I felt shocked and upset so of course I said something. I asked if his dog should be muzzled. He said it was a fully trained police dog and it was fully under his control. I asked him if he is a police officer and he said yes. I asked for his details because I wanted to put in a complaint about the dog going for my son. He wouldn''t give me any details as he said it was ''confidential information''. He wasn''t in uniform so I probably shouldn''t have asked for his details in hindsight.

He walked away from me and I followed him. I seriously was annoyed because of the offhand way he treated the situation. I called the police and told them that one of their officers has a police dog that I considered unsafe around children. It was at this point that the man stopped and the police asked to speak to him. I put him on the phone and he admitted he isn''t a police officer. To cut a long story short, the police came and took my statement. They then spoke to him and told him that if I put in a formal complaint he might have his dog euthanised. I don''t want this at all. If his dog is unsafe around children it could be muzzled while out in public. Thats what I have put forward to the police to tell him. He did admit his dog is unpredictable.

So what im asking is how much you trust your dog. Do you think a dog can be fully trusted not to attack? My dog is so soft I can''t imagine her attacking anyone but I can''t say for sure that she won''t. If I had concerns about her attacking anyone I would not just hope it wouldn''t happen. I would do all I could to ensure everyone was safe.

I could have handled the situation differently. I should not have let James just go ahead and pet a strange dog. I am glad he wasn''t hurt. I will know better next time.

 

[princesss]

You can never be 100% sure about what an animal will do. I trust my dog, and I''ve never seen him show an ounce of aggression towards a person, but under the right circumstances it could happen.

If he knows his dog is unpredictable, he should have warned you. Yes, it was your responsibility to check, but it''s also his responsibility as a pet owner to warn people away from petting his animal if it''s unpredictable.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Maisie, I agree that the man was out of line. He should have warned you that his dog wasn''t trustworthy with children, if he knew that to be the case. And he CERTAINLY shouldn''t have lied to you about being a police officer!

I don''t consider any of our three dogs to be "vicious," but one of them is a little wary of children. Turbo had a bad experience with a child one time. The child was a toddler (maybe 3 or so) and came running up to pet Turbo, and tripped. When the child tripped, he grabbed onto Turbo for balance, and basically smacked her accidentally. Of course, Turbo was startled and didn''t understand why this was happening, and she snapped at him. However, she didn''t make contact, and the child''s mother was very understanding and actually apologized to DH, since her child fell into Turbo and that was what caused her to snap.

Since that incident, we''ve always been very careful about Turbo when children are around. In fact, we try to minimize her contact with small children, for their comfort as well as hers. Even though that incident happened YEARS ago, and we''ve NEVER had a problem with her since then, we''d rather be safe than sorry. Fortunately, our nieces and nephews are older children and they understand how to behave around Turbo, so we''ve never had a problem.

I''m glad you and James have learned from what happened . . . I just hope that irresponsible dog owner learned something too.

 

[Haven]

We now trust our dog completely.
We''ve put in nearly two years of training with her, so that is why we feel comfortable trusting her around other people and other dogs.

The problem with a lot of dog owners is that they don''t properly train their dogs, so horrible things happen.

 

[dragonfly411]

Maisie - Please don't be hard on yourself about this. Although you might have asked, to me when a pet owner smiles when seeing others approach their pet, it's a sign of welcome. I normally don't go up to other dogs unless they show serious signs of being friendly... wagging tail, soft eye, soft ear, licky tongue lol. I do think the man should have warned you and it sounds like he lied to try to cover his butt, which was wrong, and makes me wonder how often he does so...

ETA - I trust our yorkie 100%... she's never once in her life shown aggression towards a person. She will bark if she hears strange noises outside our house, but that's it. She thinks all other dogs and cats are playthings, and will bark, and growl, and whine... and cower.. and wag her tail... and lick their faces like they're the best tasting food ever. But she's never bitten another dog (unless they are all playing). She is fine around kids, infants, adults, everyone.

I don't 100% trust our rescue yet, only b/c he is still so very timid. He's never once offered to growl or snarl or try to bite. He does bark, and acts very scared around strangers, and cowers. When you pick him up he also makes a little... half snarly face? he opens his mouth funky, but again, I think it's fear. That being said, I wouldn't trust him around smaller children who don't know their own actions.

 

[FrekeChild]

I trust my dogs 100%.

When we got Brie, they said she couldn''t be around children because she showed aggression towards them. About a month after we got her, we took her to PetsMart and were standing in a line one day, when a little girl about 3 years old came over to pet her. Brie didn''t snap, growl or try to bite her, instead, as soon as the little girl touched her, Brie flopped over on her side so the little girl could rub her stomach. I glanced away, and when I looked back, the little girl and Brie were curled up in a pile on the floor cuddling.

Right. My dog is SO aggressive around children.

Nicky, on the other hand, is far more territorial and much more of a guard dog. He barks and growls at anything and everything, but he''s smaller and the most he has ever done is try to clean behind a child''s ears (he does this to me too) and the child happened to be my 14 month old niece. He is very well trained, and if I say, "No." he backs off immediately.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Maisie, I'm so sorry. I hope J isn't traumatized from his experience. This is not the dog's fault. This is 150% the owners fault.

As an owner of a dog who's considered an aggressive breed (Chow Chow) this really peeves me. German Shepherds need to be trained and socialized with just as much care and caution as you would a Pit Bull or Rottweiler. If the dog is working, or a working dog in general, the guy should have asked you not to approach them. WORKING DOGS SHOULD NOT BE HANDLED BY THE PUBLIC! It's a danger to you and it distracts the dog from doing his/her job. That being said, the guy should not have had the dog in a public place like a pet store or at least have had him muzzled if this was his temperament.

ETA: I would also like to point out that when a child wants to pet my dog I always have them approach him at an angle or from the side with his eyes downcast. Because J is so small he may have been at eye level with the dog. He might have even been making eye contact as he approached. This combined with being the same level as the dog was probably percieved as a threat, which is why he snapped. Unfortunately, like I said, this can happen with any dog, even the nicest. Not just an aggressive breed.

 

[TooPatient]

I am 99% sure Sentra would never attack a person or animal. I take her to pet stores sometimes and she even spent a day in my office last week. Kids come up and pet her (as do adults) all the time. I would not have her in these situations if I was unsure of her behavior.
I DO think that parents need to teach kids to ask the owner BEFORE approaching. (A toddler wandered up to Sentra last week and started petting her while the kid''s mother just watched. The kid was the same height as Sentra -- she''s 78 pounds)

I''ve got pictures of kids (2-4 years old) laying on her, petting her, chasing her, etc.
I adopted her when she was around 2 years old and she is now around 12. I know her moods and behaviors.

BUT....

She is an animal. If she has a sore spot on her body, I can imagine her growling (which would scare a little kid). If she is really scared, I can imagine her snapping (not biting, just warning to back off).

We had her at the vet Wednesday to get her boosters and she was really nervous. A mother let her kids (4-8 year olds) approach her and they were reaching to pet her (without asking me first). I stepped in front of them and asked the kids to not pet her right now -- she''s scared. The vet''s assistant explained that other animals get scared like their cat does and when the animals are scared you shouldn''t pet them.

 

[Maisie]

James was definitely at eye level with the dog. I can see why that might have been seen by the dog as a threat. When I was talking to the police officer who took my statement he said that once a police dog, always a police dog. You can''t switch that working side of the dog off just because its now retired and a house pet.

I honestly wish I hadn''t let James approach the dog. I was naive enough to think that the dog was safe because it wasn''t muzzled. James is actually calling the man ''that naughty man with the dog'' so I think he blames the owner too!

 

[elrohwen]

It really depends on the dog. I have known some dogs that I did trust 100%, even with small children. Growing up, my neighbors had a dog who looked very wolf-like, but I would have trusted him with any child. He was absolutely the softest dog I have ever met in my life and I would trust him with anything and anyone. I have also known dogs that I trusted in almost all situations, at least with adults, but that I wouldn't leave alone with a small child they didn't know (my own dogs fell into this catagory).

I also get very annoyed when owners allow you to pet their dog if it is unpredictable. In my opinion, the owner probably knows that the dog isn't to be trusted with strangers and should tell you not to pet it or muzzle it in public. The man you met in the pet store should have been responsible and told your son not to approach his dog. I don't think it was you or your son's fault if you approached a dog when the owner ok-ed it. Also, plenty of police dogs live in officer's homes with kids and family and are wonderful - so being an ex-police dog is no excuse.

I was at the vet with my bunny a few weeks ago and there was a large German Shorthaired Pointer barking and trying to get towards my bunny (who was in a carrier). Now, this is typical, and some barking does not necessarily mean that a dog is bad tempered, so when the dog approached me (quietly) I held out my hand for him to sniff. The owners were paying no attention and had him on a very long leash in a small space. They were perfectly ok with him approaching me multiple times, so after he sniffed I moved to touch him and he snapped at me. I don't think he was intending to bite, but still, if you have a dog who is going to snap at strangers, do not put him on a long leash in a small vet's office and do not allow him to approach people! I almost said something to the owners, but as they were leaving I just let it go. It's your own fault if you're going to be careless and your dog bites someone - people need to take more control of their dogs.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Date: 3/8/2010 2:35:38 PM
Author: Maisie
James was definitely at eye level with the dog. I can see why that might have been seen by the dog as a threat. When I was talking to the police officer who took my statement he said that once a police dog, always a police dog. You can''t switch that working side of the dog off just because its now retired and a house pet.


I honestly wish I hadn''t let James approach the dog. I was naive enough to think that the dog was safe because it wasn''t muzzled. James is actually calling the man ''that naughty man with the dog'' so I think he blames the owner too!

Maisie, while it was an unfortunate and hard lesson to learn, you and James did both learn a positive lesson. Dogs, like people deserve our respect.

 

[Haven]

I definitely agree that all children should be taught to *never* approach strange dogs on their own, and to always ask the owner if the dog is safe to pet, as well as the right way to approach a dog for the first time.

Still, this guy was standing right there, and should have warned you *before* James was even near the dog that his dog was unpredictable.

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 3/8/2010 2:48:37 PM
Author: Haven
I definitely agree that all children should be taught to *never* approach strange dogs on their own, and to always ask the owner if the dog is safe to pet, as well as the right way to approach a dog for the first time.

Still, this guy was standing right there, and should have warned you *before* James was even near the dog that his dog was unpredictable.

Agreed. It would be nice if everybody asked politely before petting your dog, but some people just run right up and pet them (especially kids, who may not know better or remember the rules). It''s absolutely the owner''s responsibility.

 

[trillionaire]

I trust my dog as far as I can see her. I know her temperament and personality, including when she is uncomfortable or agitated. If she''s not in a good mood, I can keep her away from other people. She doesn''t snap at people ever, but she''s a moody girl, and she might growl if she''s grumpy. She usually loves kids because they have fun smells, but I am careful that they don''t poke at her eyes or pull on her tail. Kids are curious, but also unpredicatable. She was socialized around kids at a young age, but is more used to older children. Kids love her, but probably more than she loves them. My last dog, however, was a saint and we felt 100% comfortable with him all the time. My current dog is a big baby, and prefers to be catered to rather than catering to people or kids, lol.

 

[yssie]

I trust our puppy (not really a puppy, he's 5) completely. He's an alsation/chow mix.


I trust him to be friendly, to want cuddles and attention, to be ready to play, and to try to make friends with everyone he meets. I also trust that because he's just so energetic, he does scare some people - esp kids and their parents, so we keep him on short leash in public. I trust that he won't ever bite or hurt anyone deliberately, but I know that other people don't know that, and I don't want trouble. And as TooPatient said very well, I trust that he will revert to instinctual behaviours, perhaps including aggression, if he feels hurt, scared, or threatened.



I don't know why he would lie about being a police officer, if he was lying

...he should've said something - "my dog doesn't like to be petted", "my dog doesn't like people near his face", "please don't come near him right now, he's nervous". That said, if someone comes up to Kodi, it's my job as his owner to warn him or her that he will likely jump, it's his or her job to explicitly ask before he or she pats the dog - and no, extending one's hand for a courtesy sniff does not constitute explicitly asking. Perhaps, had the owner had warning that James would try to actually pat the dog, he would've said "stop".


I completely understand why he wouldn't give you more info. Authorities are very unforgiving of aggressive dogs, especially bigger animals or 'problem breeds'; to a scared person I imagine an energetic lick and an attacking pounce look much the same, and the dog should be better trained - but not incapacitated, perhaps even put down.

 

[Maisie]

There is no doubt that the dog snapped at James. It would have bitten him if I hadn''t pulled him back. I don''t know why the man lied about being a police officer. Maybe he thought it would stop me questioning him further. He did admit to the police that he lied and that his dog did try to bite James. He said it was James'' fault for getting too close to the dog. I had the opportunity to put in a formal complaint but I declined. I don''t want the dog put to sleep over this. I just want the owner to be more careful when he is out in public.

I have learned a lesson from this too.

 

[elrohwen]

I think you did the right thing, Maisie. I don't think the dog would've been put to sleep just for snapping, at least not in the US, but they definitely can be for biting. It's sad - if the owner would be more responsible the dog wouldn't be put in that position (and, of course, your song wouldn't have been in that position either)

 

[Puppmom]

Maisie, I''m sorry this happened and I hope it doesn''t impact James''s view of dogs in the future. This man was totally out of line but I do agree with you that you should always ask before petting. I admittedly have a hard time with this because I just love dogs and always want to be their friend...even though they may not want to be mine.

With that said, I do trust my dog. I have a 2 year old Rhodesian Ridgeback. He is a BIG dog and a lot of people are intimidated by him for that reason. While I trust my dog, he IS a dog and so I do have boundaries. I NEVER leave him alone with children because he could inadvertently hurt one of them...and, to be perfectly honest, I don''t think most children know how to act around dogs. I never leave him unattended outside on his lead (our doggie LOVES to sunbathe in the lawn but somone is always with him and he''s on a lead since the front yard is not fenced) Also, when I walk him, I pull his lead short and put him into heel position when others pass by. It took me a while to get that not all people love my dog like I do Now that I know this, I try to be respectful of other people and don''t allow my dog to get close.

I also second what Haven said - if you put in the work you CAN trust your dog. Training is situational and you really have to expose your dog to all sorts of stimuli (including an inquisitive toddler) repeatedly and at a very young age.

 

[lilyfoot]

Date: 3/8/2010 3:11:21 PM
Author: Maisie
There is no doubt that the dog snapped at James. It would have bitten him if I hadn''t pulled him back. I don''t know why the man lied about being a police officer. Maybe he thought it would stop me questioning him further. He did admit to the police that he lied and that his dog did try to bite James. He said it was James'' fault for getting too close to the dog. I had the opportunity to put in a formal complaint but I declined. I don''t want the dog put to sleep over this. I just want the owner to be more careful when he is out in public.

I have learned a lesson from this too.

That''s the most important part! It''s a good lesson to learn (or re-learn), and thank goodness your son wasn''t injured.

Nobody should trust their dog 100%. Dogs are animals, and they are unpredictable, no matter how domesticated they are. Personally, I can do anything to my dogs, and they don''t bare their teeth, growl, or try to bite me. Not that I partake in these activities normally, but I can pinch them, pull on their ears, pull on their tails, reach in their mouth and get food or a treat out, reach my hand in their food bowl as they''re eating, take a toy from them, etc. But does that mean I would trust them 100% around children, or other people? Nope. They''re the sweetest, most playful dogs I''ve ever met, but they''re still dogs.

Maisie, when I see a dog I want to pet, even if the dog comes right up to me with a "smile" on his face, I always ask the owner if it''s ok for me to pet them, and I don''t even have children. I don''t know WHY people take unsociable dogs out in public, but they do.

 

[yssie]

Date: 3/8/2010 3:11:21 PM
Author: Maisie
There is no doubt that the dog snapped at James. It would have bitten him if I hadn't pulled him back. I don't know why the man lied about being a police officer. Maybe he thought it would stop me questioning him further. He did admit to the police that he lied and that his dog did try to bite James. He said it was James' fault for getting too close to the dog. I had the opportunity to put in a formal complaint but I declined. I don't want the dog put to sleep over this. I just want the owner to be more careful when he is out in public.

I have learned a lesson from this too.

Sorry Maisie, I didn't mean to be harsh or judgmental. I was just trying to offer another possible perspective, having seen wonderful animals unfairly suffer for imagined slights

.


I don't know what he was thinking, taking a poorly trained dog out in public, not warning you, lying about the fact afterward!

I sure hope he's learnt his lesson, for the dog's sake!! And I'm very glad James is okay.

 

[Maisie]

Date: 3/8/2010 3:21:27 PM
Author: yssie

Date: 3/8/2010 3:11:21 PM
Author: Maisie
There is no doubt that the dog snapped at James. It would have bitten him if I hadn''t pulled him back. I don''t know why the man lied about being a police officer. Maybe he thought it would stop me questioning him further. He did admit to the police that he lied and that his dog did try to bite James. He said it was James'' fault for getting too close to the dog. I had the opportunity to put in a formal complaint but I declined. I don''t want the dog put to sleep over this. I just want the owner to be more careful when he is out in public.

I have learned a lesson from this too.

Sorry Maisie, I didn''t mean to be harsh or judgmental. I was just trying to offer another possible perspective, having seen wonderful animals unfairly suffer for imagined slights

.


I don''t know what he was thinking, taking a poorly trained dog out in public, not warning you, lying about the fact afterward!

I sure hope he''s learnt his lesson, for the dog''s sake!! And I''m very glad James is okay.

I didn''t think you were being harsh or judgemental

James is fine and I don''t think it will put him off dogs. It has made me more aware of the idea that not all dogs are as soft as ours and I need to be more careful when out and about. I would have hated it if James had been bitten.

 

[parrot tulips]

I''m so sorry you had to experience such a fright, but am glad James is okay.

I have a 9 month old boxer. She''s as sweet as can be, and has never showed any aggression. She has been very good with the children she''s met so far, from toddlers to middle schoolers, but I still wouldn''t leave her around small children unsupervised. In Izzy''s case, it''s mostly because I don''t trust her 100% not to jump and lick when saying hello. That could be very scary for a kid who''s eye level with her.

I was in a similar situation with a child wanting to say "hi" to my dog without asking first. As soon as I noticed the little boy coming towards her, I held Izzy (to keep her from jumping), and told him that he needed to ask his mom for permission to pet my dog, but if she said it was okay, I''d hold onto Izzy because she was very excitable. The little boy was happy that he got to pet a dog, and Izzy was thrilled to be getting the attention.

 

[Maisie]

I understand excitable dogs. I know a very bouncy labradoodle. She is crazy and jumpy and licky! She doesn''t seem to have a bad bone in her body. She just wants to play. I can see that would be overwhelming for little kids - and big people

I still love it when I see her though!

 

[ksinger]

Our dog WILL kill you in a heartbeat.....PROVIDED......you melt easily from being salivated on.

I trust this dog completely. He's a big, insanely good-natured black lab, and loves everybody all the time. I've never EVER seen him be agressive to anyone. He loves children, workmen, the mailman, rapists, you name it. He gets along with all the other dogs a the dog park, and likes cats too. I kinda wish he was a bit more agressive honestly. But his bark is really fierce sounding, so at least he does put off those who don't know him. I would trust our dog around babies, he's that gentle.

He DID kill a big 'ol possum a couple of years ago though. But the rabbits and squirrels? He just looks at 'em, when he's not snoozing. It bodes ill for our garden this year....

ETA - lest anyone think our dog is ALLOWED to be around children unattended or off a leash, I assure you he isn't. He is well-controlled at all times, by US. But he's still nothing but a big lover, and that is from someone who was terrified of dogs as a child, due to being nastily bitten by 2 neighbor dogs who were out of their yard. It took me a long time to get used to dogs, and I still don't trust most of them. Strays still terrify me.

 

[Maisie]

Our Blossom is a lab too and she is so soft. She barks when someone comes to the door... as she is reversing into the back room till they go away again!

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Karen and Maisie, I didn''t know you were lab people! Two of our three dogs are part black lab! Turbo is half black lab and half ??? and she''s a total sweetheart (except for the kid incident mentioned above, which IMO is understandable). Biko is half black lab and half pit bull, and you''d NEVER know about the pit bull part . . . he''s such a love bug! Yay for labs!

 

[Keepingthefaith21]

I trust my dog when I am in control of the situation, yes. However, I am always aware of the fact that she is a dog and can not always rationalize the way humans can. This is a retriever we''re talking about - she''s got a heart of gold as far as we can tell but these are things *I* think about her; these aren''t promises she has made to me.

I''d love to believe that she would never hurt a fly - sadly, I''ve seen far too many friends rushing their children to the ER as the result of a family pet turning the tables. At the end of the day I respect the fact that my dog, as well trained as she is, is still an animal with animal insticts. I am cautious at all times for her best interest as well as the best interests of all others who are exposed to her.

 

[waterlilly]

Many thoughts here. It''s actually a pet peeve of mine (no pun intended) so don''t take this to be directed at you - the guy reacted SO inappropriately I wouldn''t even know where to start on addressing that. This is just my take on the whole "petting dogs in public" thing...maybe it will get people to think differently next time they see a dog in public and want to touch it.

side note: Not sure why the police said the dog could be put down for "trying to bite" someone. That simply is not true.

I hate bringing my dogs to places like that. Not because my dogs are aggressive - but because there is always going to be someone that thinks its OK to approach and pet my dogs and likely - they are either going to have a child with them or it''s going to be a child that is not being supervised by an adult that is just wandering around looking for dogs to molest. The store isn''t a petting zoo - I should be able to bring my dog in there, try on a collar, harness or whatever - do my shopping without everyone sticking their hands in my dog''s face - but I can''t. So, I just don''t bring them.

How do I know your child didn''t just have it''s hands all over that flea bag in isle 3? Or that puppy mill pocket chipoo festering with ringworm and parvo in isle 2?

It blows my mind how people react when you say "NO" to "can I pet your dog?"...as if the dog must be some vicious beast and how dare you bring them into this store. I''m sorry, but did you pay admission to come in here? How would you feel if I walked up to you and asked if you mind if I pet your child? Touched your coat? Tried on your handbag? Why is it that people see a dog in public and have this need to touch it?

Children are VERY OFTEN seen as threatening to dogs. Not sure why this isn''t known by the general public - but it is a FACT. They are at eye level, make direct eye contact, smile (aka: show their teeth) move quickly, and always reach right for the face.

Unless a dog has been raised around kids and you know this for a fact - never, never, ever let your child approach and attempt to pet a dog. ESPECIALLY a driven breed like a GS, Mal, Rotti, Akita, Husky, etc. ! Especially a place where any idiot can bring their dog in!

A lot of people I know who foster and do obedience will bring dogs to places like this to work on socialization and training with distractions - to get them in a place where there are a lot of new smells, sounds, etc. - they constantly have to tell people "NO, please don''t pet him". Not because the dog would bite - but because they want to be left the heck alone to focus on what they are doing!

This owner may not have had a clue his dog would react that way (lets hope he didn''t) and could have been surprised, embarrassed and frightened about what you were going to do as a result - prompting him to act like the moron he did.

No one knows how their dog will react to a child in a public situation like that - and you can''t trust that an owner is going to be responsible enough to control the dog. The only thing you can control in that situation is your child - don''t let them do it, period.

I would NEVER allow my dog to walk up to a random child and start slobbering all over it - nor would I walk up to a parent with a child and say "do you mind if my dog licks your child?" I wish others would give me the same courtesy and leave us alone! I am not there for your entertainment!

If I am in public and see a dog - I never ask to touch it. It''s not mine, why would I??

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

As the owner of a well trained, elderly, exceptionally gentle dog, I''d say she''s pretty much totally trustworthy. As the parent of a toddler, I would not trust my dog an inch.

The man you met in that store sounds odd, as well as unforgiveably careless.

 

[Cehrabehra]

our new neighbors brought their dog over on a leash to introduce him to our family - needless to say my son 8 years later still has scars on his face from the encounter.

The people who don''t trust their dogs have untrustworthy dogs.

The people who DO trust their dogs are sometimes very, very wrong.