How horrible must the stone be in order to..

[Dancing Fire]

receive a Fair/Fair/Fair grade from GIA or AGS? are there such stones for sale out in the market? have you ever seen one IRL?

 

[dk168]

In the UK, you'll see them all the time, here's an example, and I have seen worse in the shops!

http://www.hsamuel.co.uk/webstore/d/4677862/the+forever+diamond+-+18ct+gold+1+carat+diamond+ring/

DK

 

[Snowdrop13]

Eeuuwwww! I've stopped looking in UK jewellers windows, except for the really high end ones, upsets me too much.

 

[Missy]

What I dislike is the name...why not call it what it is? The grades fair and good make it seem like it is OK when in reality these stones that receive those grades are not OK. I mean the very definition of fair and good belies the real meaning when it is used to grade these diamonds.

 

[TrueBlue]

UK people should be used to this, though. Think of Ofsted reports - only in 2012 did we come clean that 'satisfactory' wasn't really and was in fact 'requires improvement'.

 

[Rhino]

Probably see these more in OEC's however there are some cutters who focus on this kind of stuff as the diamonds are cut primarily for price point.

Even though GIA or AGS do not yet cut grade OEC's here's the ASET of something I would grade worse than a fair/fair/fair.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Interesting question, DF,

Since I rarely see such stones (cannot even remember ever seeing one), I did some research on a wholesale-listing. Searched for GIA-Fair only in a range of 1.00 to 1.99 Ct, all colors, all clarities.

Found over 2,400 stones worldwide, which did not seem enormous, but still more than I expected. Then checked how many there were in Belgium: about 230 (just under 10% thus). I was surprised though that only about 30 of them were priced at a fair price compared to the fair grade. Looking a bit further, I noticed that about 180 were from one single supplier, notorious for his high pricing compared to usual market-levels. I must admit, I was shocked to see them pricing Fair at pricing one can also get average EX today.

What interests you most probably, about 750 could be found in the US. Other relatively big inventory is in India, just over 900.

Live long,

 

[diamondseeker2006]

DF, I am surprised you haven't already renamed the GIA grades:

Excellent = Excellent to very good

Very good = acceptable to questionable

Good and lower = forget it!!!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Maybe it's like when you ask someone how they are doing and they say "Fair". You know immediately that something is not right

 

[Dancing Fire]

I wanna see a lab report on a 3X Fair stone + pics ..

 

[Dancing Fire]

Interesting question, DF,

Since I rarely see such stones (cannot even remember ever seeing one), I did some research on a wholesale-listing. Searched for GIA-Fair only in a range of 1.00 to 1.99 Ct, all colors, all clarities.

Found over 2,400 stones worldwide, which did not seem enormous, but still more than I expected. Then checked how many there were in Belgium: about 230 (just under 10% thus). I was surprised though that only about 30 of them were priced at a fair price compared to the fair grade. Looking a bit further, I noticed that about 180 were from one single supplier, notorious for his high pricing compared to usual market-levels. I must admit, I was shocked to see them pricing Fair at pricing one can also get average EX today.

What interests you most probably, about 750 could be found in the US. Other relatively big inventory is in India, just over 900.

Live long,

I'm looking for a 3X fair D IF stone...

 

[denverappraiser]

The stones are there, but they don't get sent to GIA and AGS for grading. Mostly they're not new production stones. There are other labs that either don't assign a cut grade or are more 'generous' in their grading standards. Or both. A no-name or bad-name lab may trade at a theoretical discount, but a discount from what? A GIA/fff would be unsalable.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I totally agree with Neil. There's a lot of really poorly cut stuff out there
From what I've seen there's a far higher percentage of poorly cut stones with EGL reports, as compared to GIA reports.
It will be interesting to see what the removal of the worst EGL labs does to the trading of such stones.

If we're speaking of GIA graded rounds, the "Fair" symmetry graded stones I've seen were all visibly "off make" and pretty horrible.

But in fancy shaped diamonds, I've seen quite a few attractive stones graded fair symmetry by GIA.
Granted, most were fancy colored- but I've also seen colorless fancy shapes with Fair symmetry that had a lot of visual appeal.

 

[Dancing Fire]

If we're speaking of GIA graded rounds, the "Fair" symmetry graded stones I've seen were all visibly "off make" and pretty horrible.

But in fancy shaped diamonds, I've seen quite a few attractive stones graded fair symmetry by GIA.
Granted, most were fancy colored- but I've also seen colorless fancy shapes with Fair symmetry that had a lot of visual appeal.

David
The next thing you gonna say is that some stones with POOR symmetry will have nice eye appeal too..

What is below GIA poor? Very poor?

 

[RandG]

This is probably my most horrible stone with poor symmetry. Bottom is a recently graded "round brilliant", triple good. I know, what was I thinking....

 

[Niel]

This is probably my most horrible stone with poor symmetry. Bottom is a recently graded "round brilliant", triple good. I know, what was I thinking....

Its horrible

Must hurt your eyes to look at it! OK... OK, for you, I'll take it off your hands. Whatever I can do to help

 

[RandG]

Niel! My favorite diamond picker! Any interest in finding me a horrible pear too? I'm having a love affair with fatty old pears right now but finding larger stones with the right shape/cut has been a challenge. When you're out there doing your laser sharp searching... keep me in mind... please? You're a gem to this forum, truly.

 

[heididdl]

Yeah Ross-Simmons and overstock.com lol

 

[Niel]

Niel! My favorite diamond picker! Any interest in finding me a horrible pear too? I'm having a love affair with fatty old pears right now but finding larger stones with the right shape/cut has been a challenge. When you're out there doing your laser sharp searching... keep me in mind... please? You're a gem to this forum, truly.

Of course. Its a shame there was a lovely one on eBay a while back, but gone now.

Or of course. There's this

 

[RandG]

LOL. And this is why you are the picker. That one has been on my list for a while. Way overpriced but a fantastic example of an ideal old cut pear. There's one even better there too...

 

[Rockdiamond]

Fair Symmetry ( It had EX polish to be fair )

Cut by Yoram

Checklist:
Leakage: YES
Wonky Cut:YES
Desirable: YES

 

[diagem]

Fair Symmetry ( It had EX polish to be fair )

Cut by Yoram

Checklist:
Leakage: YES
Wonky Cut:YES
Desirable: YES

Funny you attached this Diamond to this thread as I was about to write a curiosity on this subject...

Back in the later part of the 90's when I first started to explore with antique cuts I was met with polite resistance whenever I attempted to present my cuts to potential antique jewelers/clients. They seemed to love the cuts but once they heard they were newly cut by me they stood on the fact that they only use genuine antique cuts. Most didn't even know newly antique cuts existed, they were correct, they didn't on a commercial scale yet as they do today.

Presently with a few years gone by, today I supply numerous antique jewelers with my cuts. Obviously those jewelers look for an appearance mimicking the old cuts of yester-years. In order for me to reach such specific appearances I must apply my knowledge in this field so I can supply them the looks they are seeking. To achieve such cuts one must understand the Historical methods and objectives these cuts were cut to.

Yes, a lot of our vintage cut selection will proudly carry the "Fair" grade for symmetry call.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Fair Symmetry ( It had EX polish to be fair )

Cut by Yoram

Checklist:
Leakage: YES
Wonky Cut:YES
Desirable: YES

Funny you attached this Diamond to this thread as I was about to write a curiosity on this subject...

Back in the later part of the 90's when I first started to explore with antique cuts I was met with polite resistance whenever I attempted to present my cuts to potential antique jewelers/clients. They seemed to love the cuts but once they heard they were newly cut by me they stood on the fact that they only use genuine antique cuts. Most didn't even know newly antique cuts existed, they were correct, they didn't on a commercial scale yet as they do today.

Presently with a few years gone by, today I supply numerous antique jewelers with my cuts. Obviously those jewelers look for an appearance mimicking the old cuts of yester-years. In order for me to reach such specific appearances I must apply my knowledge in this field so I can supply them the looks they are seeking. To achieve such cuts one must understand the Historical methods and objectives these cuts were cut to.

Yes, a lot of our vintage cut selection will proudly carry the "Fair" grade for symmetry call.

That's a fascinating backstory Yoram. You have mastered the art of precision imprecision

Combining the art of reproducing the look of early cutting with your ability to push the envelop of modern technical accuracy, is like learning a foreign language so well that you are fluent in both the formal and the street slang.

I would guess it is very challenging to work in both worlds and that not many cutters have such range.

 

[diagem]

That's a fascinating backstory Yoram. You have mastered the art of precision imprecision

Combining the art of reproducing the look of early cutting with your ability to push the envelop of modern technical accuracy, is like learning a foreign language so well that you are fluent in both the formal and the street slang.

I would guess it is very challenging to work in both worlds and that not many cutters have such range.

Thank you Bryan for such a unique compliment...
Being brought up on a few continents I guess this reflects a lot on my outlook on life in general. People who know me can attest.
But yes, in order for me to reach the cut levels we currently reach, first I had to know how it all began approx 700 years ago...

 

[Karl_K]

That's a fascinating backstory Yoram. You have mastered the art of precision imprecision

Combining the art of reproducing the look of early cutting with your ability to push the envelop of modern technical accuracy, is like learning a foreign language so well that you are fluent in both the formal and the street slang.

I would guess it is very challenging to work in both worlds and that not many cutters have such range.

Thank you Bryan for such a unique compliment...
Being brought up on a few continents I guess this reflects a lot on my outlook on life in general. People who know me can attest.
But yes, in order for me to reach the cut levels we currently reach, first I had to know how it all began approx 700 years ago...

If you cut the same stone today with what you know now would it still have a fair symmetry grade or was there something about the rough or design that forced the grade?

 

[Karl_K]

If we're speaking of GIA graded rounds, the "Fair" symmetry graded stones I've seen were all visibly "off make" and pretty horrible.

But in fancy shaped diamonds, I've seen quite a few attractive stones graded fair symmetry by GIA.
Granted, most were fancy colored- but I've also seen colorless fancy shapes with Fair symmetry that had a lot of visual appeal.

I have seen some rounds with fair symmetry and even fair polish that were very nice.
I have seen fancies with fair symmetry and or fair polish that were dynamite.
I have also seen some that were ugly as all get out.
The fact is that lab grades for symmetry and a lesser extent polish have little to do with diamond optics and beauty.

 

[diagem]

That's a fascinating backstory Yoram. You have mastered the art of precision imprecision

Combining the art of reproducing the look of early cutting with your ability to push the envelop of modern technical accuracy, is like learning a foreign language so well that you are fluent in both the formal and the street slang.

I would guess it is very challenging to work in both worlds and that not many cutters have such range.

Thank you Bryan for such a unique compliment...
Being brought up on a few continents I guess this reflects a lot on my outlook on life in general. People who know me can attest.
But yes, in order for me to reach the cut levels we currently reach, first I had to know how it all began approx 700 years ago...

If you cut the same stone today with what you know now would it still have a fair symmetry grade or was there something about the rough or design that forced the grade?

Sure I would Karl, otherwise how would I achieve that genuine old feeling appearance? With exact symmetry points?
I will admit there is much more to simply cutting "old cut" Diamonds, even beautiful wonky Diamond cuts need planning & designing too.
I usually will put extra efforts on its polish (hence the excellent polish grade issued to the wonky shaped Diamond David illustrated above...

 

[Texas Leaguer]

That's a fascinating backstory Yoram. You have mastered the art of precision imprecision

Combining the art of reproducing the look of early cutting with your ability to push the envelop of modern technical accuracy, is like learning a foreign language so well that you are fluent in both the formal and the street slang.

I would guess it is very challenging to work in both worlds and that not many cutters have such range.

Thank you Bryan for such a unique compliment...
Being brought up on a few continents I guess this reflects a lot on my outlook on life in general. People who know me can attest.
But yes, in order for me to reach the cut levels we currently reach, first I had to know how it all began approx 700 years ago...

If you cut the same stone today with what you know now would it still have a fair symmetry grade or was there something about the rough or design that forced the grade?

Sure I would Karl, otherwise how would I achieve that genuine old feeling appearance? With exact symmetry points?
I will admit there is much more to simply cutting "old cut" Diamonds, even beautiful wonky Diamond cuts need planning & designing too.
I usually will put extra efforts on its polish (hence the excellent polish grade issued to the wonky shaped Diamond David illustrated above...

That's interesting Yoram. What is your thinking there? Do you think taking the polish from say Very Good to Excellent has an appreciable impact on beauty?

 

[diagem]

That's a fascinating backstory Yoram. You have mastered the art of precision imprecision

Combining the art of reproducing the look of early cutting with your ability to push the envelop of modern technical accuracy, is like learning a foreign language so well that you are fluent in both the formal and the street slang.

I would guess it is very challenging to work in both worlds and that not many cutters have such range.

Thank you Bryan for such a unique compliment...
Being brought up on a few continents I guess this reflects a lot on my outlook on life in general. People who know me can attest.
But yes, in order for me to reach the cut levels we currently reach, first I had to know how it all began approx 700 years ago...

If you cut the same stone today with what you know now would it still have a fair symmetry grade or was there something about the rough or design that forced the grade?

Sure I would Karl, otherwise how would I achieve that genuine old feeling appearance? With exact symmetry points?
I will admit there is much more to simply cutting "old cut" Diamonds, even beautiful wonky Diamond cuts need planning & designing too.
I usually will put extra efforts on its polish (hence the excellent polish grade issued to the wonky shaped Diamond David illustrated above...

That's interesting Yoram. What is your thinking there? Do you think taking the polish from say Very Good to Excellent has an appreciable impact on beauty?

Firstly, I am cutting these Diamonds with present day tooling which allows me to easily achieve a high polish level.
Bryan, I guess I am some sort of perfectionist. Whenever I look out to my yard through our windows at home, it drives me nuts if I can notice any smudges. Same effect I personally get whenever I notice smudges on Diamond polished facets.
When it comes to achieve a high polish level on our 3D light symmetry cuts, we take many more factors into consideration naturally and process these factors completely different, it becomes a much more lengthy and complicated process.
But since we are pretty much used to apply a high grade of polish in general this leaks onto our vintage cut segments as well..., it sure doesn't hurt. Sometimes we'll get a special request to add old-world characteristics (patina) to our old cuts, that's where expertise goes in and I might play a bit with the polish levels among other things.