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How extraordinay/rare is this diamond? It is GIA IF,D,EX,EX,EX,

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Steve in Arizona

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 3, 2006
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I just purchased the following diamond:



Round Brilliant
5.99 – 6.03 x 3.69 mm
0.81 carat
Color - D
Clarity - IF
Cut - Excellent
Clarity Characteristics – None
Polish – Excellent
Symmetry – Excellent
Fluorescence – Medium Blue
Comments – Minor details of polish are present.

After doing diamond searches on several websites, I know a diamond with all these grading characteristic is not easy to find. I am wondering just how rare a stone this really is. Does anyone have statistics on the percentage of very high quality diamonds that are available in comparison to lesser stones? I would really like to know something quantitative. I have read elsewhere that most people would rather buy a larger lesser quality diamond because at a certain point the human eye cannot see the differences. My fiancé and I have not seen anything that compares to the brilliant appearance of this diamond. This is a good thing for me since she was adamant that she did not want anything larger than 1.00 or less than .75 because “they do not look right on my finger”. She never guessed that she was making it possible for me to afford the highest quality stone I could find. We are very happy with the stone, but I sure am curious about how extraordinary/rare this diamond really is. The jeweler got the diamond from Lazare Kaplan. I had never heard of this company before, however their website claims to sell “The most beautiful diamond in the world”. So far, I cannot disagree with that.

Thanks, Steve
 
RE: Rarity

Certainly this stone is of a very superior quality, but I''d say it would be very uncommon in the trade but in that size not rare.

Lazare Kaplan is a premier diamond cutting company who pioneered cutting diamonds in the ideal cut manner years ago.

Lazare Kapan was related to Marcel Tolkowsky. In fact a TV commercial was filmed in the late 60''s or early 70''s with Lazare himself sitting in the back of a Mercury Marquis, cleaving a diamond to demonstrate how "great" the ride in that car was.

I would suggest however, that the stone be sent to the AGS lab, for confirmation of the color, clarity, and cut grade, as they are more extensive in the grading than GIA is.

D IF stones do sell at a premium price, and because of that it certainly would be a good thing to have it completely verified, just so you have the complete peace of mind required with such a purchase.

Rockdoc
 
Thanks for the great reply. I am old enough to remember that Mercury Marquis commercial and how serious they were about how the slightest bump in the ride would ruin the value of the diamond. What hype! I am curious about your statement that diamonds of this size are not that uncommon. I could not find any .75 to 1.00 on line that had a GIA report that matched this one. I had Tiffany''s looking for 3 months, then Cartier, Bailey''s, Molina, Dliamond Showcase, Naughton''s, and several others. The closest any one came was GIA IF, D, Ex Cut, VG Polish, VG Symetry (Tiffany''s). One jeweler found a 1.02 but when I took it out into the sunlight it got that oily/cloudy look that apparently a small percentage of fluorescent stones get. They wanted 21K for the stone and ring which was out of the question anyway. Bailey''s actually found the stone and another that was AGS .84 carat I took them both outside in shade and sun (Arizona Sun!!!) and the GIA was clearly better looking. The common response I got from B and M stores after a day of looking was "that is a hard stone to find" "do you realize you have people looking all over the world for this stone" "We can get it if you will go to 1.00 to 1.50 (Tiffany''s 28K)". This is why I am asking for actual statistics of rarity. It is hard to believe that it took me four months to get the stone if it is not extremely rare. By the way it is set in a 6-prong "Platinum Lazare" setting. My intellectual curiousity is really peaked. Does anyone keep statistics on actual availability of very high quality diamonds.

Thanks, Steve
 
I remember the parody of that commercial they had on Saturday Night Live - it had a mohel performing a circumsion on a baby to demonstrate the smooth ride of the Mercury Marquis.
 
Maybe I should clarify more clearly what I consider RARE vs. uncommon.

Rare would be a diamond where only a few exist in the world. Like a purple, vivid green or red diamond. Almost "next to impossible to find".

Uncommon - I''d define it as available (which I think the diamond you chose is), but very difficult to locate.

Sorry I wasn''t more clear

Rockdoc
 
Congrats on your engagement! The reality is, diamonds in nature aren't really rare at all. Their availability is largely controlled by human beings and so, at any point in time, certain sizes, colors, or cuts can be more or less difficult to find. It's true that colorless stones are less abundant in nature than near colorless, and the same is true of internally flawless vs. SI quality stones. What also makes a diamond uncommon or rare is its carat weight. A 7 ct diamond in this quality would be considered extremely rare, I would think, but less so under 1.5 or 2 cts. As far as the excellent cut, ideal cut diamonds are much less abundant than commerical quality goods simply because they cost more to make. I suspect the reason this diamond really shines and sparkles is because of the cut. Far more than any other other factor, cut determines the beauty of the stone. You could have a D, IF quality stone with a fair cut and it would only look fair. Hope this helps.
 
It''s the first one I''ve ever come across, but I''m just a garden variety shopaholic.

Can you post pics?
I bet it is amazing!

congratualtions on your engagement and on finding such a special stone!
36.gif
 
Date: 5/4/2006 10:52:49 AM
Author: RockDoc
RE:
I would suggest however, that the stone be sent to the AGS lab, for confirmation of the color, clarity, and cut grade, as they are more extensive in the grading than GIA is.

D IF stones do sell at a premium price, and because of that it certainly would be a good thing to have it completely verified, just so you have the complete peace of mind required with such a purchase.

Rockdoc
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Roc,

I find your advice to be absolutely reprehensible. Here we have a gentleman with a fantastic stone, cut by Lazare Kaplan, certified by the GIA and you tell him to go get it certified by another lab to make sure that they agree with the grade.

Why do you insist on trying to scare people so much? He asked how rare it is and you try to scare him. I am a HUGE fan of AGS over GIA for their cut grade information but I recognise that both labs do credible work and the GIA is THE most accepted lab in the World at this time. I find this kind of advice reprehensible and irresponsible. The gentleman and his lady are exstatic with their purchase and you do the whole trade a disservice with this kind of scare tactic.

Should they dissagree, and you know that GIA and AGS have different parameters for what makes their top cutting grade, then you have a client suddenly unhappy with a stone that should never have been anything but a tremendous joy to them both. I can understand why you recommend an independant appraiser, it is how you make a living, but to discredit GIA for no possible reason other than to cause discomfort to this gentleman is simply over the top.

Steve in Arizona, you have an incredible stone, and while I do not have the solid numbers that you are looking for, I can tell you literally that your stone is one in many thousands. I hope you will enjoy it and the beauty and joy that it brings you both for all of your lives and that your future generations secretly covet it!

Wink
 
Congrats on your purchase. When I worked for a fine jewelry store ages ago I sold a lot of Lazare Kaplan stones. They are truly incredible diamonds. Please post pics when you can!!!
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The Lazare pedigree would be enough for me.

Curious - did you seek out a D w/ bl. flour?
 
In reply to Fire&Ice''s question, Dancing Fire''s comment, and RockDoc''s and Wink''s opinions.

I was interested in anything that had none to medium blue fluorecence as long as the fluorecence did not cause the diamond to look oily/cloudy in sunlight. I did see a 1 carat that did have this problem. I am actually glad to have medium blue fluorecence because after reading everything I could find on fluorecence I believe it is more benificial to appearance than none at all. This diamond is absolutely spectacular in comparison to everything else I have seen, and I have looked at many, many, many diamonds recently. For those of you who asked for pictures to be posted; I do not think my digital photography skills are adequate to the task. All I can say is that every time my fiancee, myself, and friends look at the diamond we are amazed by its appearance. Dancing Fire has a good point, most people are surprised that it is under 1.00 and I can only assume this is due to the brilliance. Perhaps friends and accquaintences are just being politely complimentary, but the saleslperson at Tiffany''s saw the diamond and had a similar reaction. She had never seen one of the new GIA reports that lists Cut as Excellent. When compared to a few of Tiffany''s higher quality stones, they paled in comparison. This confirms for me what I have read on this forum about Tiffany''s having high quality stones but not necessarily the highest. I am going to stop now because I am concerned about being perceived as a braggart. I encourage anyone thinking of buying an engagement ring to consider quality first and size second. Thanks to everyone for their replies, especially Rockdoc and Wink because I am sure both were sincerely trying to help. If the AGS diamond I saw had appeared to be better than the GIA I purchased, I would certainly have purchased ithe AGS. If anyone does eventually find some statistics on the availability of high quality diamonds please contact me. Thanks again.

Steve in Arizona
 
style="WIDTH: 99%; HEIGHT: 128px">Date: 5/4/2006 5:17:49 PM
Author: Wink

Steve in Arizona, you have an incredible stone, and while I do not have the solid numbers that you are looking for, I can tell you literally that your stone is one in many thousands. I hope you will enjoy it and the beauty and joy that it brings you both for all of your lives and that your future generations secretly covet it!

Wink
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Hi Steve,
35.gif

Ditto. I believe your diamond is quite "rare", and the market value of such a stone is proof of this fact. Welcome, and thank you for your participation.

Sincerely,
David
 
grats!

i guess it would depend on what your definition of "rare" is as opposed to "limited availibility" or "unusual"

Here some rough stats about diamond averages, and their "rarity". i have no idea when these articles were written or how accurate they are:

http://diamondcuttersintl.com/diamond_education/articles/reference/twelve_little_facts.html
http://diamondcuttersintl.com/diamond_education/articles/diamond_trade/ice_in_ice.html
http://diamondcuttersintl.com/diamond_education/articles/diamond_trade/thegreatoverhang.html

and a general index to more articles:
http://diamondcuttersintl.com/diamond_education/articles/index.html
 
D IF Marquise

This is considerably less than a D IF round.
ETA: my point is that the D IF rough is rare, but not so rare that it doesn't exist.
 
Date: 5/6/2006 3:35:12 AM
Author: londonblue
grats!


i guess it would depend on what your definition of ''rare'' is as opposed to ''limited availibility'' or ''unusual''


Here some rough stats about diamond averages, and their ''rarity''. i have no idea when these articles were written or how accurate they are:


http://diamondcuttersintl.com/diamond_education/articles/reference/twelve_little_facts.html

http://diamondcuttersintl.com/diamond_education/articles/diamond_trade/ice_in_ice.html

http://diamondcuttersintl.com/diamond_education/articles/diamond_trade/thegreatoverhang.html


and a general index to more articles:

http://diamondcuttersintl.com/diamond_education/articles/index.html
Click to expand...

I went to see just the first link in your page and saw a page full of drivel so sickening that I did not bother going to see the others. What a load of GARBAGE!

For example: 8. 2 out of every 3 diamonds have fluorescence (a diamonds reactyion to ultraviolet light) that causes the diamond to look oily and milky in sunlight. (Bad punctuaion and spelling are his, not mine...)

I sell diamonds for a living. I have seen less then twenty such stones in my life. Surely, even though I specialize in the better cut goods, if such diamonds were so prevelant I am sure to have seen more than twenty in a career that spans over thirty years.

As with the other comments on his page, this drivel is designed to scare you into buying ONLY from him, as he is the only honest dealer in the whole world. The real shame is that so many fall for his lies.

By the way, nothing on that first page addressed the question of this thread.

Wink
 
Wink, I have to agree with you.

Diamond Cutters = Fred Cuellar.

I will not say more. Just look up Fred Cuellar here on PS and read all about this gem or a fellow!
 
I can''t give you an accurate quantitative answer but I can tell you this- I just did a scan of both the major trade databases containing probably a billion dollars worth of certified diamonds and there are exactly 2 stones on the market today between .70-.80ct D IF EX EX.

Factor in that a large percentage of stones in the jewelry market are not even of high enough quality to be certified you begin to get a feel for just how rare your stone is.

Picking up on what Wink said, it is very true that many jewelers go their whole careers without selling, owning, or even seeing one!

Enjoy an your fabulous little treasure!
 
Thanks to everyone for the great relpies.

Wink, thanks for responding about the websites that have information that even with my limited knowledge I knew had ridiculous information. Everyone who visits this forum owes you and the other BS detectors a debt of gratitude.

Steve
 
hmm, i''ve never heard of this Fred guy, but he sure makes for interesting reading on PS hehe
thanks for pointing clarifying his mumbo jumbo, no wonder i had a hard time understanding any of it!
however, how much of what he says about the entire state of the diamond monopolies is true then? does that mean that they just have a bunch of D/IF diamonds hoarded and let them trickle out a few at a time?
 
Date: 5/8/2006 3:11:27 PM
Author: londonblue
-snip- no wonder i had a hard time understanding any of it!

however, how much of what he says about the entire state of the diamond monopolies is true then? does that mean that they just have a bunch of D/IF diamonds hoarded and let them trickle out a few at a time?
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I have had to erase all of my sarcastic answers, such as, what part about this guy being a con artist do you not understand, as I did not want to come across as rude. (The other one that I REALLY wanted to use was, "if his lips are moving, he's lying, but the politicians already took that one.)

So, sarcasm being out of place on a polite discussion board like this one, let me try to give you a straight answer.

First, I do not know what he says, as I have not gone to read his site other than the first page from his site posted earlier in this thread. It was such garbage that I did not go any further.

I appraised a ring that he made for the Colorado Avalanche some years ago when they won the Stanley cup many years ago. I called him to ask about the ring as I had no idea what it cost to make such a ring and what he charged. We had a nice conversation and he offered to send me one of his books so I could put it on my web site. Wow, what a nice guy.

I got the book and started to read it one evening after going to bed. I eventually had to leave the room to finish it as my poor wife was tired of listening to me grumble and swear at the perfidious nature of the information in his book. Needless to say, the book did NOT get on to my website, I have no need to post a book so full of misinformation and outright lies.

Second, if his lips, oh wait, not allowed to use that one, darn.

Second, while DeBeers does indeed have a stock pile, it is no where near as big as it used to be, and it certainly is not made up of only D-Flawless gems waiting to crush the market if they were released. Last guesstimates that I read from any reasonably reliable source stated that the current stockpile at DeBeers is less than a year's supply. How accurate the guesstimate was, or whether there is a better one out there now I do not claim to know. At one time the Russians were said to have a larger stock pile, but what the status of that is now I also have no knowledge of.

Not knowing what he says, but knowing the quality of his book and the quality of the one page I waded through I will tell you that if is probably hogwash, but that would again just be my personal opinion. Be advised that I do not like the man, I do not respect the man and I do not trust the man. I believe that he and people like him are a scourge on the industry that I love, so please take any thing I have just said with a grain of salt, I might actually be correctly accused of bias in this case.

Wink

P.S. Hey cool thing, I just discovered that the spell checker in the Google bar works with Pricescope, I no longer need to look so illiterate!

P.P.S. Please know that the opening salvo of this email is said in a laughing tone of voice and is intended entirely as good humor. Sometimes it is just hard to resist a little humor, but I do not want it possibly misunderstood. As a professional, who actually did get his GG, I know that much of what he says is garbage, but I do understand how incredibly confusing it can be for someone who is a professional in another line of work.
 
Date: 5/6/2006 9:49:16 PM
Author: gemmy1

Picking up on what Wink said, it is very true that many jewelers go their whole careers without selling, owning, or even seeing one!

Enjoy an your fabulous little treasure!
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Actually I was referring to the overblue''s, those stones that look oily roily in the sunlight. You just don''t see a lot of those either, but they are definitely more common than a D-IF.

I have been blessed to sell several D-IF stones in my career, one or two more I and I will reach ten. I think you are right though that many jewelers never sell even one, let alone several. My most glorious day as a young jeweler working for Joe Robinson at Sexty''s Jewelers in Boise, Idaho was to sell two small D-IF''s in one day to two different couples looking for that "perfect" ring. A few years later, just after I started working for myself, I had another two IF sales in one day, but neither of them were D''s. The two 1.5 to 2 carat stones cost nearly $100,000 combined, and just a few months later the bottom dropped out of the market.

I also missed on a 25ct D-IF marquise when my client got drunk and broke up with his fiance the night before I was supposed to fly to NY and view the diamond. Man, I think I was sicker than he was! That sale would have been over four million dollars and at that time it would have changed my life. (This was also during the investment craze days, it would not be so much now I think..)

So, yes, I have been very blessed with getting to sell several IF''s over the years, and about 60-70% of those were D-IF''s. If I count the non D''s then I have indeed sold more than ten, which is a lot for a little jeweler in Idaho.

Thank you for keying up that memory for me, it kind of adds a spark to my day.

Wink
 
Date: 5/8/2006 2:34:27 PM
Author: Steve in Arizona
Thanks to everyone for the great relpies.

Wink, thanks for responding about the websites that have information that even with my limited knowledge I knew had ridiculous information. Everyone who visits this forum owes you and the other BS detectors a debt of gratitude.

Steve
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Thanks Steve, your kind words are greatly appreciated. There are a lot of great sources of information on this forum, which is a good thing. I am priveledged to be but one of them.

Wink
 
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