How can a diamond be VS2 and not eye-clean?

[ElizabethR]

I had an experience where I picked a vs2 graded diamond only to find on closer inspection that it had a feather on the table. I thought VS2s were all eye-clean?

 

[canvasback]

What lab graded the stone VS2? Was it eye clean at "half-arms' length"? Was it a fancy cut? Inclusions may be much easier to see in fancy stones say vs. a round brilliant. Oftentimes the larger the stone the easier it is to see inclusions as well.

I just saw a AGS 000 VS2 round diamond that was listed "eye-clean" but wasn't eye clean to me because of a clear crystal under the table.

What is eye clean to me may not be eye clean to you. There's some variance.

I consider a true "eye-clean" stone to be eye clean at all distances and angles. That's not a practical view once a diamond is set, but it's still the truest definition of the term in my opinion. Just my $.02

 

[OoohShiny]

I consider a true "eye-clean" stone to be eye clean at all distances and angles. That's not a practical view once a diamond is set, but it's still the truest definition of the term in my opinion. Just my $.02

haha I'm glad I'm not alone in this definition of eye-clean

 

[Karl_K]

Some sharp eyed persons are able to see some vs2 inclusions in properly graded diamonds.
If the lab report is not AGS or GIA then it would be much more likely to see something due to improper grading.

 

[Chautea]

To be blunt: improper grading.

 

[Karl_K]

To be blunt: improper grading.

not always.

 

[Chautea]

To be blunt: improper grading.

not always.

In most cases.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Diamonds are graded as eyeclean face up at a certain distance. I have had an earring diamond before that was eyeclean from the top, but a tiny black crystal was visible from the side. It didn't bother me since you can't see the sides on studs. But because I like clean stones, my personal sweet spot for ring diamonds is VS1. Those are clean to the eye and pretty much with a 10x loupe!

 

[WinkHPD]

What lab graded the stone VS2? Was it eye clean at "half-arms' length"? Was it a fancy cut? Inclusions may be much easier to see in fancy stones say vs. a round brilliant. Oftentimes the larger the stone the easier it is to see inclusions as well.

I just saw a AGS 000 VS2 round diamond that was listed "eye-clean" but wasn't eye clean to me because of a clear crystal under the table.

What is eye clean to me may not be eye clean to you. There's some variance.

I consider a true "eye-clean" stone to be eye clean at all distances and angles. That's not a practical view once a diamond is set, but it's still the truest definition of the term in my opinion. Just my $.02

While you are entitled to define things by your own opinion, your opinion is not, in fact, the measure by which the grade is determined by the GIA, whose system the trade uses. Diamonds are clarity graded under 10X magnification, and contrary to popular belief, eye cleanliness is NOT part of the determination of the clarity grade.

I know that many Pricescopers like to grade tougher and harder than any Laboratory, including both GIA and AGS which are the only two top tier laboratories in this country. It is fortunate that the laboratories do not adapt their grading system to fit the "requirements" of many Pricescopers, as the resulting flood of I1 diamonds and lack of VS2, SI1 and SI2 clarity grades would probably double or triple the cost of an SI2 and higher and drop the price of the now bountiful I1's so low that the diamond cutters would lose their proverbial shirts, along with their businesses.

All of that having been said, I agree that it is rare that a true VS2 has an eye visible inclusion under the table and it makes me want to know, as others have asked, who graded the diamond and also importantly, under what lighting conditions are you seeing the inclusion?

If you see it in standard lighting while the ring is being worn, then it is very likely a "lucky cert" if it came from one of the two top tier labs, or sadly, "business as usual" if it came from one of the "Less than Top Tier" labs.

If on the other hand, you are back lighting the diamond in order to make the inclusion stand out, or looking from the side or back of the diamond, then you are "cheating" as far as the trade is concerned. You are welcome to do it, and welcome to return the diamond, but realize that the diamond very probably is then also properly graded.

There is just so much that we do not know from the OP's original question that it is hard to give a definitive answer.

Wink

P.S, I have seen one 4 ct GIA graded VS1 with an inclusion that I could clearly see from the top at across the desk distances. It was during a continuing education class given by GIA at the Tucson Gem show. We were given six diamonds to clarity grade over a twenty minute time period using 10X loupes. Not one of us in the class got that diamond "right" and the instructor, under intense questioning from all of us finally admitted that he thought the paper was wrong. I did not get to speak to him after he returned and talked to GIA about it, so I do not know if the grade was ever changed or not.

At the time I was incensed and thought it clearly an I1. Today, after many more years in the trade I would accept that it was an SI1 or an SI2 rather than an I1, it was very small in terms of the overall mass of the diamond and it was the only inclusion, but I would NEVER buy it or sell it as a VS1. So, while I talk about accepting the paper, I too choose when to accept and when to reject as it is my money on the line.

Just another reason why one must always SEE THE DIAMOND with your own eyes before you finalize the sale. Never buy without a good return policy!

 

[Chautea]

What lab graded the stone VS2? Was it eye clean at "half-arms' length"? Was it a fancy cut? Inclusions may be much easier to see in fancy stones say vs. a round brilliant. Oftentimes the larger the stone the easier it is to see inclusions as well.

I just saw a AGS 000 VS2 round diamond that was listed "eye-clean" but wasn't eye clean to me because of a clear crystal under the table.

What is eye clean to me may not be eye clean to you. There's some variance.

I consider a true "eye-clean" stone to be eye clean at all distances and angles. That's not a practical view once a diamond is set, but it's still the truest definition of the term in my opinion. Just my $.02

While you are entitled to define things by your own opinion, your opinion is not, in fact, the measure by which the grade is determined by the GIA, whose system the trade uses. Diamonds are clarity graded under 10X magnification, and contrary to popular belief, eye cleanliness is NOT part of the determination of the clarity grade.

I know that many Pricescopers like to grade tougher and harder than any Laboratory, including both GIA and AGS which are the only two top tier laboratories in this country. It is fortunate that the laboratories do not adapt their grading system to fit the "requirements" of many Pricescopers, as the resulting flood of I1 diamonds and lack of VS2, SI1 and SI2 clarity grades would probably double or triple the cost of an SI2 and higher and drop the price of the now bountiful I1's so low that the diamond cutters would lose their proverbial shirts, along with their businesses.

All of that having been said, I agree that it is rare that a true VS2 has an eye visible inclusion under the table and it makes me want to know, as others have asked, who graded the diamond and also importantly, under what lighting conditions are you seeing the inclusion?

If you see it in standard lighting while the ring is being worn, then it is very likely a "lucky cert" if it came from one of the two top tier labs, or sadly, "business as usual" if it came from one of the "Less than Top Tier" labs.

If on the other hand, you are back lighting the diamond in order to make the inclusion stand out, or looking from the side or back of the diamond, then you are "cheating" as far as the trade is concerned. You are welcome to do it, and welcome to return the diamond, but realize that the diamond very probably is then also properly graded.

There is just so much that we do not know from the OP's original question that it is hard to give a definitive answer.

Wink

P.S, I have seen one 4 ct GIA graded VS1 with an inclusion that I could clearly see from the top at across the desk distances. It was during a continuing education class given by GIA at the Tucson Gem show. We were given six diamonds to clarity grade over a twenty minute time period using 10X loupes. Not one of us in the class got that diamond "right" and the instructor, under intense questioning from all of us finally admitted that he thought the paper was wrong. I did not get to speak to him after he returned and talked to GIA about it, so I do not know if the grade was ever changed or not.

At the time I was incensed and thought it clearly an I1. Today, after many more years in the trade I would accept that it was an SI1 or an SI2 rather than an I1, it was very small in terms of the overall mass of the diamond and it was the only inclusion, but I would NEVER buy it or sell it as a VS1. So, while I talk about accepting the paper, I too choose when to accept and when to reject as it is my money on the line.

Just another reason why one must always SEE THE DIAMOND with your own eyes before you finalize the sale. Never buy without a good return policy!

+1

You took the words out of my mouth.

 

[canvasback]

What lab graded the stone VS2? Was it eye clean at "half-arms' length"? Was it a fancy cut? Inclusions may be much easier to see in fancy stones say vs. a round brilliant. Oftentimes the larger the stone the easier it is to see inclusions as well.

I just saw a AGS 000 VS2 round diamond that was listed "eye-clean" but wasn't eye clean to me because of a clear crystal under the table.

What is eye clean to me may not be eye clean to you. There's some variance.

I consider a true "eye-clean" stone to be eye clean at all distances and angles. That's not a practical view once a diamond is set, but it's still the truest definition of the term in my opinion. Just my $.02

While you are entitled to define things by your own opinion, your opinion is not, in fact, the measure by which the grade is determined by the GIA, whose system the trade uses. Diamonds are clarity graded under 10X magnification, and contrary to popular belief, eye cleanliness is NOT part of the determination of the clarity grade.

You are absolutely right, Wink. If diamonds were graded that way, and GIA did include eye-cleanliness in the clarity grade, there would a certain clarity grade (say, VS2) that would be noted "eye-clean" by the lab. Like you said, it is NOT included in the grading process, which is why I didn't say that it is graded incorrectly.

 

[WinkHPD]

True. Now if the OP would just tell us who graded the diamond and how he saw it and in what lighting, we would have more information available to us.

Wink

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Amen on NEVER buying without an unconditional return policy!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

All three of these things have been mentioned, but I believe deserve more emphasis in understanding the question posed in the subject line:
1) Size - the bigger the diamond, the bigger the size of the allowable inclusion. As the inclusion increases in size it is more likely to be visible to the naked eye. This is one reason you cannot make a gemological grade dependent on eye clean. It's all relative.
2) Shape- some shapes/facet arrangements are more revealing of clarity features. Emerald cuts in particular. VS2 emeralds are frequently not eye-clean (especially in larger sizes)
3) Depends on the person. Most people can focus at about 10". Some can focus much closer. The closer you are able to focus the smaller the inclusion you are able to see.

The question of eye clean in my opinion is not a determination that the lab should make. For one reason, even if you are able to technically see an inclusion with the naked eye, it may have negligible impact on beauty. On the other hand, it may bug the hell out of you. This is the domain of personal preference.

 

[WinkHPD]

All three of these things have been mentioned, but I believe deserve more emphasis in understanding the question posed in the subject line:
1) Size - the bigger the diamond, the bigger the size of the allowable inclusion. As the inclusion increases in size it is more likely to be visible to the naked eye. This is one reason you cannot make a gemological grade dependent on eye clean. It's all relative.
2) Shape- some shapes/facet arrangements are more revealing of clarity features. Emerald cuts in particular. VS2 emeralds are frequently not eye-clean (especially in larger sizes)
3) Depends on the person. Most people can focus at about 10". Some can focus much closer. The closer you are able to focus the smaller the inclusion you are able to see.

The question of eye clean in my opinion is not a determination that the lab should make. For one reason, even if you are able to technically see an inclusion with the naked eye, it may have negligible impact on beauty. On the other hand, it may bug the hell out of you. This is the domain of personal preference.

Agree! And I will go further and state that it is not one that the CAN make. The grader at the lab has no way of knowing what I can see, nor can I tell what my clients can see. I have had clients who can say way more than me, and I can, or at least used to be able, see much more than most people.

The system is not perfect, but it works. If we start declaring things eye clean at "x" grade, we will always be hearing from those who can see the inclusion and who are not happy about it.

Wink

 

[ElizabethR]

Hi Wink, I'm so sorry, I've looked at dozens of stones over the last few days and had a few chats with some of the venders, but I can't remember which diamond it was specifically.

 

[alpackie]

This thread is giving me nightmares about the "diamond education" I received from BrilliantEarth about how "typically" you cannot see inclusions in VS1-2 stones. (they used IGI)

 

[WinkHPD]

Typically, you will not.

But, occasionally...

Just always have the right of return, and you need not to entertain nightmares.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Hi Wink, I'm so sorry, I've looked at dozens of stones over the last few days and had a few chats with some of the venders, but I can't remember which diamond it was specifically.

Not to worry. I am going to guess then that you looked at diamonds with many different certs and obviously, since you saw this one and kept looking, you have already exercised your preemptive right of return by not taking it to begin with.

Wink

 

[ElizabethR]

[quote="Wink|1412385692|3761754"

Not to worry. I am going to guess then that you looked at diamonds with many different certs and obviously, since you saw this one and kept looking, you have already exercised your preemptive right of return by not taking it to begin with.

Wink[/quote]

True.