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cherry

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 15, 2003
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39
i found this diamond at Abazias,

GIA cert.
RB
1.03 carat
H /VS2
Measurements: 6.56-6.57x4.00
Depth % 60.9
Table % 55
Girdle Medium
Culet No
Polish Ex
Sym. Ex
Flour. F
Price: 4600

In order to know more about the cutting, I have sent them an email and ask if I could get the crown and pavilion angles. But i got the replied as following:

'Unfortunately, the diamond dealer in possession of the stone does not have a sarin machine. However, he says it is 100% a triple 0 cut stone. It was cut by a very advanced machine in Russia, and it is truely top notch.'

So what do you think about it? should I keep looking? or do you think this diamond is worth to buy?
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Thanks
 
Cherry:




I'd pass. The diamond is GIA graded, which means the cut wasn't graded by GIA.




If the diamond dealer isn't in possession of a Sarin, then how can he FACTUALLY claim the diamond is "triple 0" cut? In order to meet that standard, the proportions must be identified, and he's saying he doesn't know them, so how can he make that claim?




I'm not saying it's untrue. I'm saying that I personally want more than a diamond dealer's "assurance" if I'm going to put down a substantial amount of my hard-earned cash.




I think you can do better.
 
thanks so much. It sounds weired for me too. Maybe I should keep looking then
 
I am looking for a diamnd online, however, most of them don't provide crown/pavilion angles even though it's graded by AGS, why?
 
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On 1/6/2004 1:22:20 PM cherry wrote:

I am looking for a diamnd online, however, most of them don't provide crown/pavilion angles even though it's graded by AGS, why? ----------------
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Most times it's website space limitations. Lots to tell about diamonds, settings, other jewelry, services, etc., and limited space to tell everything.

If you find a diamond of interest, contact the Vendor for more details. They will get you the info you need to help you make an informed buying decision. I spoke with more than a few and they are all really great people. Very friendly, helpful, and professional. Never pushy. I never once felt like I was being forced to purchase a specific diamond from a specific Vendor.
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I personally would give such a stone a good look. It may be a wonderful purchase. The numbers, as such, look right on, and the diameter is right on. Why not see it, get it appraised, then make a decision whether or not to keep it? You will surely pay more to get all of the bells and whistles at the more expensive vendors. If, however, you want to spend more to be sure, that is your decision. I just hate to see a nice stone dismissed so summarily! Most stones available to buyers have only a GIA cert. Should everyone just pass on them?
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On 1/6/2004 10:44:12 PM caratgirl wrote:

I just hate to see a nice stone dismissed so summarily! Most stones available to buyers have only a GIA cert.



Should everyone just pass on them?
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Caratgirl.....no, of course not, and that's not what I was suggesting.



I'm saying that the lack of info *combined* with a suspiciously low price tend to lead me to think that the diamond isn't one of the strong makes. Does that mean one shouldn't consider it? No.



But I'll be honest......if other places can give me LOADS of the information I want without having to go on a (potentially losing) fishing expedition, wouldn't it make *much* more sense to start there? I could see doing the needed in the haystack thing if there weren't a lot of other great options, but there are......and it just seems to make more logical sense to me to start with those and exhaust the "low-hanging fruit" before working down to the "maybe it's good, maybe it's not" list.



 
Yeah, I know, I just love finding a bargain, I guess. Especially since I lucked out on my stone. The stone's measurements just look so good on paper.
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Oh, believe me....I'm ALL about getting a bargain! But I just don't see the vendor trying to compensate for the lack of information.




What's the return policy on this stone? Is it only if off by more than one color/clarity grade, or is it 100% refund no questions asked? How long is that return period?




If I were the vendor and I wanted the sale and couldn't get the information, I'd offer a decent return policy to minimize the risk to the client - or offer to have it sent to a local independent appraiser prior to purchase to incent the customer to give serious consideration.




Cherry didn't mention getting any of this---just "it was cut on great Russian machine, so you buy!". To me personally, that's not worth it when I can get the information without even breaking a sweat from so many other places.
 
I personally would not waste my time without a Sarin report. The numbers do make a difference, and using diameter, table and depth don't tell the whole story....nothing really does like your eye. But to take that leap of faith with so much money and have the diamond sent to you just to save a few bucks? What if they have to send it back? That costs too.




I would do all the research up front and don't necessarily buy a brand or have to pay more to get the info you need. Keep looking
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There are tons of stones out there and vendors (online and offline) who will go that extra mile and get you what you ask for.




Good luck!
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And....




Brokered stones from GOG. Must call to get more info.




1.05 H SI2 H&A 1.5 EX HCA: $4450


1.04 G SI2 H&A 1.6 EX HCA: $4503


1.06 H SI2 H&A 2.0 VG HCA: $4526


1.05 G SI2 H&A 0.8 EX HCA: $4568


1.03 F SI2 H&A 1.5 EX HCA: $4790


1.10 G SI2 H&A 1.4 EX HCA: $4763 (my fave...4 EX's on HCA and big stone!!)
 
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On 1/6/2004 11:33:36 PM aljdewey wrote:


Oh, believe me....I'm ALL about getting a bargain! But I just don't see the vendor trying to compensate for the lack of information.


What's the return policy on this stone? Is it only if off by more than one color/clarity grade, or is it 100% refund no questions asked? How long is that return period?


If I were the vendor and I wanted the sale and couldn't get the information, I'd offer a decent return policy to minimize the risk to the client - or offer to have it sent to a local independent appraiser prior to purchase to incent the customer to give serious consideration.



Cherry didn't mention getting any of this---just 'it was cut on great Russian machine, so you buy!'. To me personally, that's not worth it when I can get the information without even breaking a sweat from so many other places.
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Well, actually, Abazias is quite highly regarded as a PS vendor. Plus, it does have a GIA cert. But, it is certainly true that there is a plethora of stones in this size on the net.
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On 1/6/2004 10:44:12 PM caratgirl wrote:

Most stones available to buyers have only a GIA cert. Should everyone just pass on them?
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Yep
That would force everyone to provide the information.
Then educate everyone on how to use the information.
Cut quality goes up accross the industry.
Sounds good to me :}
 
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On 1/6/2004 10:44:12 PM caratgirl wrote:

I personally would give such a stone a good look. It may be a wonderful purchase. The numbers, as such, look right on, and the diameter is right on. Why not see it, get it appraised, then make a decision whether or not to keep it? You will surely pay more to get all of the bells and whistles at the more expensive vendors. If, however, you want to spend more to be sure, that is your decision. I just hate to see a nice stone dismissed so summarily! Most stones available to buyers have only a GIA cert. Should everyone just pass on them?
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I completely concur. The numbers are excellent & mm incredibly tight - ex ex in polish/sym isn't going to have a sincere visual affect - but certainly goes to issue of the care in cutting this stone. My feeling is that this stone is a drop ship. That is probably why the stone is cheap. Very little risk & time involved from the vendor. What is your risk? Do you have a right to return? Will they send it to an inde. appraiser? What costs will you incur? There are bargins out there. One just has to incur extra effort & possibly money. I imagine this diamond is more self-serve.
 


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On 1/6/2004 11:55:58 PM caratgirl wrote:




Well, actually, Abazias is quite highly regarded as a PS vendor. Plus, it does have a GIA cert. But, it is certainly true that there is a plethora of stones in this size on the net.
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The issue isn't whether Abazias is well-regarded or not......that has nothing to do with the lack of information on *this* stone. Look, GOD has a great reputation, too, but I wouldn't buy a diamond from him either without crown/pavilion angles *unless* there was no other alternative.



However, in this scenario, there IS a better alternative, and that was my whole point. Yes, this stone may be nice.....and it may not be. There are those people who are willing to invest a little time to find out.....and I'm one of them, too, IF that's the best option. But I also value my time, and if there is a more direct route to finding what I want.....that's always my first choice.



Maybe an analogy would help illustrate: If an off-beat part in my car was broken, there is a chance that the local Wal-mart *may* carry it.....but I'd rather not waste time on the *possibility* when I KNOW that the auto-parts place down the street WILL carry it. (On the other hand, if there are no auto-parts stores in my town.....*then*, yes, it becomes worth my while to check out Wal-mart. I may still strike out there, but there are no better alternatives.)



Yes, it has a GIA cert. At the risk of repeating myself....*so what*????? I've said it already, but I'll say it again....GIA does *not* grade the cut. When I was looking, I got Sarin info on four GIA stones that had nice depth/table figures......and not one of them had crown/pavilion angles that fell within the ideal range I was seeking. A stone with GIA grading does absolutely give peace of mind that the color and clarity are likely well-represented.....but AGAIN, they don't grade cut.



 
I agree with F&I... It looks like a great stone... The diameters are very close, the numbers are right in and ex/ex is a nice place to start.
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Of course, it may not be ideal, but who knows? If it's indeed as pretty as I am thinking, it may be quite a bargain!
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I would arrange an appraisal before you plunk down the $$$$, and if something turns out to be not as good as you expected, it won't be too late!!
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Sorry but I have to disagree. I don't see where you guys think this first stone could possibly be a 'bargain'.




It doesn't have info other than a GIA cert so there is no possible way to really tell the cut (sorry, EX EX and nice table and depth do not work for me when spending $4500). Also the color/clarity is H VS2. I posted MANY alternatives that are the SAME SIZE if not larger, for the SAME MONEY or $100/$200 more, that are at LEAST the same cut if not better (most are H&A's) that are mostly G color and SI clarity. Better color than the original stone. VS vs SI to me is a moot point because there is no 'bargain' in paying for clarity you can't see. More information vs. none. Drop ship vs. in-house.




So, someone please point out to me how this original stone is a bargain. A bargain to me is when you can get the same as you are getting elsewhere for much less money. If the Abazias stone was $4000 and budget was a serious issue, then maybe I would say yes take a chance. But not when there are about 15 other stones that could work just as well if not better which DO have more information on cut, and may even represent a better DEAL than the original stone. To me that's no bargain, and to continue to peruse the first stone and have it sent out to 'hope that maybe it's nice' when you have other stones that clearly ARE nice from numbers AND certs, is foolish.




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My two cents (boy I love it when we disagree! Livens up the day!).
 
Sarins are not the end all be all. I believe you can pick a very nice diamond from the numbers presented. Mara, you believe your way is it. It's not that I don't appreciate it. I don't subcribed to it wholeheartedly. Doesn't make me wrong, just a different shopper who has talked to quite a few jewelers who don't think the crown & pav angles tell the whole story either. Call me reckless. This diamond looks nice. Whether it's a bargin or not, I'm not sure - didn't say that. But, while I agree that an SI presents a better*value* than this VS2, it doesn't diminish the fact that the *VS2* does command *more money* regardless of what market.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't buy a diamond on drop ship. I'd want a jeweler/vendor, someone who is trained & sees diamonds all day for a living, to eyeball it. I'd trust their opinion & let my eyes be the final judge. In a way, this is basically the way I conduct all my buying if it's sight unseen. I view a diamond kinda like art - could be a great artist, great colors, great time period of his life, on it's own good composition but when you put it all together - it just doesn't work. And then there is the converse.

I don't think my way is foolish.
 
I wasn't only talking about a Sarin. Of course Sarins are not the end all to be all. Of course numbers aren't either
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Eyes are probably the best and the eyes of the person buying are most critical.




But when you don't have trustworthy eyes because the diamond is drop-shipped AND you don't have the numbers because the Sarin and/or IdealScope is not available...to me that is not something worth pursuing. Especially not for almost $5k and when there are other options. It's not $200 we are talking about here, that may be more feasible for a 'leap of faith'. Because that is EXACTLY what this original stone is. A leap of faith based on a GIA cert and crossed fingers. Is that where you would put your $5k when online shopping? Not me.
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On 1/7/2004 2:19:51 PM Mara wrote:


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Perhaps, if the return was worth the risk. But then one has to be pretty cavalier about spending money in my biz. Doesn't mean you don't cover bases & protect yourself. It seems that some stones w/o all the info. can be a good buy. I wouldn't discount them.
 
To me, it's the emotional and capital investment in an unknown, otherwise unproven product.

If you go the preview in person route and choose not to keep the diamond,..... You have your money tied up while you inspect the diamond. Maybe you get it appraised locally to verify everything. Then you decide this is not the diamond for you after all. You have to call the Vendor for a Return Authorization, package the diamond and ship it US Registered Insured Mail. The Vendor will receive your package any where for 7 to 10 days to 2 weeks from the time you ship it. Then the Vendor verifies the diamond has been returned in its original, undamaged condition, within maybe another day or 2. Finally, the Vendor cuts and mails you a refund check. That's a significant amount of time to have your emotion invested in a diamond you did not buy. And, your purchasing capital has tied up as well.

Say you have the diamond shipped to an approved appraiser for verification. Depending on the appraiser's work load, you may be emotionally invested for a week or more in a diamond the appraiser finds to be less than a good performer. Or there are inclusions that may cause performance or structural problems. Then you have to pay the appraiser and return shipping, and continue your search.

If you can't get sufficient info from one Vendor on a "listed" diamond, try another Vendor. If no Vendor can get the info, then forget the diamond and move on. There are plenty of diamonds available with enough information to make an informed buying decision.

Just my $0.02 worth.
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On 1/7/2004 2:13:30 PM fire&ice wrote:

Sarins are not the end all be all. I believe you can pick a very nice diamond from the numbers presented. Mara, you believe your way is it. It's not that I don't appreciate it. I don't subcribed to it wholeheartedly. Doesn't make me wrong, just a different shopper who has talked to quite a few jewelers who don't think the crown & pav angles tell the whole story either. Call me reckless. This diamond looks nice. Whether it's a bargin or not, I'm not sure - didn't say that. But, while I agree that an SI presents a better*value* than this VS2, it doesn't diminish the fact that the *VS2* does command *more money* regardless of what market.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't buy a diamond on drop ship. I'd want a jeweler/vendor, someone who is trained & sees diamonds all day for a living, to eyeball it. I'd trust their opinion & let my eyes be the final judge. In a way, this is basically the way I conduct all my buying if it's sight unseen. I view a diamond kinda like art - could be a great artist, great colors, great time period of his life, on it's own good composition but when you put it all together - it just doesn't work. And then there is the converse.

I don't think my way is foolish.
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I completely agree with F&I. I was simply voicing my opinion - we are allowed to have those without a severe beating here, no?
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I also noticed that all of the alternate options presented were VS2 vs SI1 & SI2 stones. Maybe that is a good choice for all of you, but what about the buyer? Maybe they want to go for an SI, maybe not. I don't even know why this has turned into an argument.

Perhaps Cherry wanted to take a slight risk. I rather doubt it though, since he seemed quite leery of a slightly better price. So, to each his/her own.
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This has definitely not turned into an argument, people were just voicing opinions, no drama required. Debate. There is no right or wrong, I would just never waste my time on a GIA stone with no information. Others may be willing to take that risk and spend time and money looking into what could be a nice stone. That isn't me.




Happy friendly family.
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I think for the first time online diamond buyer, AGS graded stones or a GIA with a Sarin makes the most sense. An AGS 000 with an HCA score < 2.0 is pretty much a slam dunk for a beatiful stone. A drop ship GIA Ex Ex without the complete #'s is a bit more of a gamble.
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On 1/8/2004 2:30:26 AM derekinla wrote:

I think for the first time online diamond buyer, AGS graded stones or a GIA with a Sarin makes the most sense. An AGS 000 with an HCA score < 2.0 is pretty much a slam dunk for a beatiful stone. A drop ship GIA Ex Ex without the complete #'s is a bit more of a gamble.
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Yeah, the drop ship GIA Ex Ex no other numbers is a bit more of a gamble. But, if the price was good, I'd certainly consider it. Quite frankly, HCA score of less than 2 isn't necessarily a slam dunk. Does it have the chance of being a nice stone - yes. But, it will not guarantee that it is a super duper performer. Call me a dinosaur. Diamond dealers have been buying by the numbers (mm,girdle,table,depth - things listed on GIA) & ultimately their eyes for a century. You've got a stone within certain parameters & it has every bit of a chance to be a great performer. Doesn't guarantee it either.

Maybe I'm incorrect here, but it would make sense that a diamond's performance is not static by the numbers because the cutting just can not be *that* precise on a three dimensional, natural stone that is cut by man (imperfect). I can't help but think there will be variations in Sarin runs on the same stone. Minor ones - but could make the diff between an HCA of 1.8 & an HCA of 2.5. I haven't run it in a while but that is the variation from a 58.9% table & a 59% table.

Anyway, I guess I'm just different. I'm big on the greater the risk - the better the reward. But, I have to agree that for a first time buyer w/ limited resources a sight unseen purchase with a sarin may be the "safest".
 
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On 1/7/2004 11:41:45 PM pqcollectibles wrote:

To me, it's the emotional and capital investment in an unknown, otherwise unproven product.

If you go the preview in person route and choose not to keep the diamond,..... You have your money tied up while you inspect the diamond. Just my $0.02 worth.
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I don't see it as an unproven product. Buying diamonds by the GIA #'s, as many dealers have for a century, has a proven track record.

To spin to play the devil's advocate, how do you know that the cutters aren't cutting at certain crown & pavillion angles as the *expense* of other facets of the stone?

On your second point, I agree that it could be a pain. Doesn't mean someone wouldn't return a stone w/ a sarin because they don't like it.

I'm not saying that having all the information is bad & not prudent - just not absolutely necessary. These Sarins cost money. I can't help but think the cost is built into the stone.
 






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On 1/8/2004 1:20:15 AM caratgirl wrote:

I completely agree with F&I. I was simply voicing my opinion - we are allowed to have those without a severe beating here, no?

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I don't even know why this has turned into an argument.

Perhaps Cherry wanted to take a slight risk. I rather doubt it though, ----------------
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Severe beating? Don't you think that's a little dramatic? This forum is about differing opinions, and the fact that others voice opinions different from yours doesn't mean they are beating on you. It simply means they see it differently from you, which is the beauty of a collective forum. Expressing an opinion that differs from your doesn't negate your opinion, make your opinion wrong, or deem it foolish.



I didn't take it as a "beating" when you (erroneously) interpreted my comment that I'd pass. But your interpretation (that I was suggesting to "summarily dismiss" the potential of this diamond or any diamond without information) was off the mark, and I sought to correct it to accurately reflect what I was expressing.



All I said was that *I* personally would not spend my time on "MAY be-s" when I could more directly target my time on "LIKELY WILL be-s".



Further, regarding whether or not Cherry wants to take a risk, please reread what he initially wrote: "So what do you think about it? should I keep looking? or do you think this diamond is worth to buy?" He asked for what WE thought.....and I told him what *I* thought.



I didn't say others would see it that way, nor did I say the diamond didn't have potential.....all I said was "I'd pass. I think you can do better." That means it's *my opinion* that one's time is better spent concentrating on possibilities that have a better chance of return. I'd rather not spend time trying to rebuild the wheel from scratch when there's a perfectly good wheel right in front of me. Maybe you'd want to because you like the challenge of doing it yourself....and if so, great. That's what makes differing opinions.



 
Personally, it's a pendulum swinging. And, I've never been one to hop on board for the full ride one side or another. Goes to issue of Sarin in general.

But, sometimes on this forum it is the definitiveness (if there is such a word) of one's decision as gospel that irks & leads people to believe their opinion/approach is "wrong" when in fact it's just different. For example, Mara is rather blunt. I'm a big girl. But, to call the act of buying w/o out all these numbers (which I don't subscribe to as completely relevant) as foolish is biased to only thinking that one sees such *incrediable* relevancy of the Sarin. Does that make me foolish for considering such stone w/o a sarin? No. I could spin it to say that discounting all stones w/o a Sarin is foolish. But then I buy & sell for a living & know that *all* buying avenues should be considered. And, I'm happiest buying on my eye. Doesn't make my decision uninformed or foolish.

Can the crown & pav numbers weed out bad performers - yep. But, when I see a stone with the tightest mm & parameters as this GIA stone in question, I'm intriqued - sarin or not. So, my point is *not* having a sarin doesn't equate to bad stone or a stone that should not be considered.

Hey Al, can you post stones with the respective HCA numbers next to one another - .5, 1.,1.5, 2.5? Please, Please, Please I get so confused if I don't see them on my computer screen which can interpret such things for me.
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That said, some people do deserve what they get here.

BTW, it's not that I am dismissing your opinion. Just not completely suscribing.
 
Well, I see my attempt at dry humor has labeled me as the 'drama queen' in this thread...not that my friends (or husband) wouldn't agree with that perspective!
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Let me clarify my statements for the sake of clarity - I don't think a newbie should risk a non-sarin, drop-ship type of stone - unless he/she is willing or able to risk tying up funds for a bit in order to verify all is well. Some people are risk takers and relish that role, others are not.

The diamond presented in the first post has very tight dimensions. For someone with no risk aversion, this may (I repeat 'may') be a great purchase.

I visit the LA Jewelry Mart with great frequency, taking my trusty Idealscope with me. I have found 3 diamond brokers/vendors who allow me to 'play' with their diamonds when there are no other customers requiring their attention. I drag enough people into their shops to allow them to humor me and my obsession with diamonds. I have profound respect for these vendors - all GG trained by GIA. They can literally look through a pile of diamonds, and with a glance, weed out the good performers. I then check them through the Idealscope, along with some random samples from the 'pile', and darned if they don't pick the winners! Very impressive. I have noticed (and from their comments, not mine) when a stone is cut to ex ex GIA standards with a med girdle and tight dimensions (within 'ideal' standards), it is almost always (and I quote 99.9%) a great performer.

The more expensive (non drop ship) vendors here do provide value added service. They have done all of this leg work, so of course I expect them to be a bit pricier. They deserve it, and should be expected to make a decent profit and return on their inventory and time investments. They also provide some great educational web sites that benefit all consumers.
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