Help with Princess Cut

[jotang]

I just started reading through the various discussions on PS in preparation for purchasing an e-ring. The info here is immense but a little overwhelming, and I think I need a little hand holding here. Any insights on the following questions would be greatly appreciated.

1) What consists of an "ideal cut" for princess cuts? I''ve read that proportions for princesses aren''t as strict as rounds, but in general, what should I be looking for in terms of depth and table %? I have read that the table % should be less than the depth? Why is that?

2) I''ve also read terms such as "AGS000" and "GIAXXX". Are these the numbers on top of the report (i.e. AGS000#####)? Also related to this, I looked at two AGS reports online, one from GoG and one from WF. The two report dates are only a month apart (both in late 2007), but the GoG one didn''t have specific depth and table numbers, instead, it had a cut grade of "AGS Ideal 0". I know the GoG site itself has the exact numbers, but it''s not on the report. Is this unusual?

3) Now, I''ll share my situation. Originally, I had a $10k budget, but GF vetoed it, saying we should save some toward the down-payment of a house (that''s why I love her). Instead, she suggested a $3K budget. I want to get her something close to 1 Ct and eye-clean, preferably looks reasonable white against WG setting. Is this doable with that small of a budget, or would it be worth it to go up to $5k for these criteria and an "ideal cut"?

4) A friend of mine hooked me up with a local wholesaler and I''m going to check out what he has later this week. Any advice on what to look for?

I will probably have more questions after this trip. So thanks in advance for reading and answering my questions.

 

[jotang]

Never mind the second part of #2... Like a dope, I missed the actual numbers on the drawing... Any inputs on any of the other parts will be truly appreciated.

 

[dbsdiamonds]

Hey there,

Here are some guidelines on measurements. When you start getting the responses on this site they are gonna tell you that you need to run the diamond info through all these different cut model theories, but for general shopping/comparing info here is what you should arm yourself with:

If I''m getting a princess, and figure to get a square one, these are the minimum measurements that I would want:

1ct 5.5 x 5.5
1.50ct 6.3x6.3+
2ct 7mm x 7mm

This will allow you to get the full face up of the weight category. That''ll keep you away from most diamonds that are cut too deep and not give you the overall faceup. Then you want to start GIA certified so that you are able to shop apple to apple and compare the numbers of what you see to PS info.

Then from there work your combo''s of color and clarity. H or better is "white", SI2 or better should be eyeclean but not all SI2''s are, so maybe shop SI1+ to start. If you want VS or better then your budget will dictate how much more in color grade you can get and of course how much bigger.

From there keep in mind that your referred "local wholesaler" will rarely compete with pricing that you WILL find when you shop online. You''ll be able to do some apple to apple comparison and when you figure out where you are going to land it''ll be easy to line up the top 10 options in your budget to get the best possible diamond for your budget.

Marty
CEO/Pres
DBS Diamonds
www.diamondsatcost.com

 

[Regular Guy]

Jotang,

You could study a lot here, getting an ASET to determine performance for a Princess...or...just buy an AGS0 that suits. There are some proportion numbers that could help, but I''ve not tried to figure that out. The ray tracing required to earn a 0 from AGS satisfies tests of performance for many here...or...at least it lends a lot of credibility. Especially when on a tight budget, Excel diamonds seems to offer good value, although their "patient care" seems to leave something to be desired. This is one of many you might consider from them...

 

[jotang]

Thanks, Marty and Ira. I will keep those pointers in mind. Also, I work in midtown NYC, so the local wholesaler is in the diamond district. He is a close friend of a close friend, so I''m hoping it won''t be too bad of an experience (compared to just walking in most stores in the district). I will also make sure to make appointments at Excel and ERD to see what they have. May also make a trip out to LI for GoG if I can find the time. Are there anyone else that PSers would recommend?

Thanks again.

Jon

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 8/11/2008 9:28:07 PM
Author: dbsdiamonds
Hey there,

Here are some guidelines on measurements. When you start getting the responses on this site they are gonna tell you that you need to run the diamond info through all these different cut model theories, but for general shopping/comparing info here is what you should arm yourself with:

If I''m getting a princess, and figure to get a square one, these are the minimum measurements that I would want:

1ct 5.5 x 5.5
1.50ct 6.3x6.3+
2ct 7mm x 7mm

This will allow you to get the full face up of the weight category. That''ll keep you away from most diamonds that are cut too deep and not give you the overall faceup. Then you want to start GIA certified so that you are able to shop apple to apple and compare the numbers of what you see to PS info.

Then from there work your combo''s of color and clarity. H or better is ''white'', SI2 or better should be eyeclean but not all SI2''s are, so maybe shop SI1+ to start. If you want VS or better then your budget will dictate how much more in color grade you can get and of course how much bigger.

From there keep in mind that your referred ''local wholesaler'' will rarely compete with pricing that you WILL find when you shop online. You''ll be able to do some apple to apple comparison and when you figure out where you are going to land it''ll be easy to line up the top 10 options in your budget to get the best possible diamond for your budget.

Marty

Hey Marty,

Your suggestions are meaningless.

First suggestion: you list diameters for size, indicating that these at least give you the minimum face-up for the weight. That sounds logical, but is not. Face-up surface is nice, but it is only that. Is a 6x6mm, 1 Ct princess better than a 5.5x5.5? Most probably not, since it is likely to be a lifeless stone. And one 5.5x5.5 can be nice, while another can be dead.

Second suggestion: go GIA-only so that you can compare apples to apples. GIA offers no info on cut-quality, so why GIA-only. If it is to compare apples-to-apples, I can go EGL-US only, and compare those? Again, your suggestion sounds logical, but it is not. You should at least mention AGS, as being the only lab grading cut-quality on princess.

Third suggestion: take the numbers of GIA and compare. Sounds logical, again it is not. GIA only gives table size and total depth of a princess-cut. Depth is a measurement that one cannot compare in a princess-cut, it means nothing. And comparing table-size only is an extremely limited comparison, which will teach you little about cut-quality.

And as every post of you, it ends with the message to go online for better price (possibly true, but not a definite rule), and this final suggestion of yours is always a hidden attempt for the consumer to check out your own services. Granted, in the past days, you have become better at hiding the self-promotion.

But the quality of your posts is still horrible, and generally meaningless.

Live long,

 

[Ellen]

Nice post Paul.

jotang, I echo looking for AGS0 stones, they take a lot of the guesswork out and make it easier for first time buyers where ASET''s and other info aren''t available.

 

[jotang]

Thanks again for the info. What about the "GIA Ex-Ex-Ex" that people have mentioned? JA has some good priced GIA Ideal cut, Ex-Ex stones, but the certificate doesn''t mention the cut. Am I right in assuming that the GIA report by itself isn''t good enough to determine the cut? How does JA determine its cut grade and how reliable is it?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/12/2008 10:29:36 AM
Author: jotang

Thanks again for the info. What about the ''GIA Ex-Ex-Ex'' that people have mentioned? JA has some good priced GIA Ideal cut, Ex-Ex stones, but the certificate doesn''t mention the cut. Am I right in assuming that the GIA report by itself isn''t good enough to determine the cut? How does JA determine its cut grade and how reliable is it?

AGS are the only lab to grade Princess for cut quality. I don''t know what factors JA use to give their diamonds Ideal Cut grades, Premium Cut etc, so best to evaluate each of JA''s diamond on it''s own merits, photos, proportions and Idealscope as they do not provide ASET. You are right, GIA reports won''t give you enough info to determine the cut quality.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/12/2008 10:32:27 AM
Author: Lorelei

AGS are the only lab to grade Princess for cut quality. I don''t know what factors JA use to give their diamonds Ideal Cut grades, Premium Cut etc, so best to evaluate each of JA''s diamond on it''s own merits, photos, proportions and Idealscope as they do not provide ASET. You are right, GIA reports won''t give you enough info to determine the cut quality.

And I will add, especially with fancies, if buying online, it''s best to look where ASET pics are offered. They give you a much better idea of what you''re really looking at. You might pay a bit more for it, but imo, it''s worth it when buying sight unseen.

 

[jotang]

Thank you all for your suggestions.

I have made a few appointments with different vendors, including some of PS''s favoriates to look at some princess cuts. I have absolutely no experience looking at diamonds, so what should I be looking out for? Any suggestion would be greately appreciated.

 

[jstarfireb]

My $0.02 worth...

Date: 8/11/2008 8:31:16 PM
Author:jotang
1) What consists of an ''ideal cut'' for princess cuts? I''ve read that proportions for princesses aren''t as strict as rounds, but in general, what should I be looking for in terms of depth and table %? I have read that the table % should be less than the depth? Why is that?

It''s hard to judge princess cuts by the numbers, especially depth. Marty''s guidelines are OK for face-up size, but also keep in mind that many beautifully cut princesses are cut on the deeper size. My 1ct AGS000 princess is 5.5 by 5.38 for example, and it''s definitely in the top 1% of princesses out there. Many people say the table should be less than the depth, but that''s not a hard and fast rule. Look for VG to EX polish and symmetry, as with any other cut.

2) I''ve also read terms such as ''AGS000'' and ''GIAXXX''. Are these the numbers on top of the report (i.e. AGS000#####)? Also related to this, I looked at two AGS reports online, one from GoG and one from WF. The two report dates are only a month apart (both in late 2007), but the GoG one didn''t have specific depth and table numbers, instead, it had a cut grade of ''AGS Ideal 0''. I know the GoG site itself has the exact numbers, but it''s not on the report. Is this unusual?

AGS000 means ideal for light performance, polish, and symmetry. GIA does not grade cut quality in princesses, but the X refers to excellent in the same categories for rounds. I think when GOG says it''s AGS0 when it''s not an AGS-graded stone, they are just estimating that it would be graded AGS0 based on its light performance.

3) Now, I''ll share my situation. Originally, I had a $10k budget, but GF vetoed it, saying we should save some toward the down-payment of a house (that''s why I love her). Instead, she suggested a $3K budget. I want to get her something close to 1 Ct and eye-clean, preferably looks reasonable white against WG setting. Is this doable with that small of a budget, or would it be worth it to go up to $5k for these criteria and an ''ideal cut''?

I think 5k is a lot more reasonable. IT will be hard to find 1ct for under 3k, and you will have to limit yourself to lower color/clarity...not necessarily a bad thing, but she may prefer whiter stones, and 5k opens up a lot more possibilities. You could also put a little more of the budget into the setting in case she wants, say, a 3-stone rather than a solitaire. Just for price comparison, my BF gave me a 5-10k budget, and I got a beautiful 1ct I/VVS2 princess from Whiteflash for just over $4k, and a custom platinum setting for $1700. It turned out to be a beautiful and unique ring for under $6k! If I had gone with a stock setting instead, it would have easily made it under $5k. So that''s a very reasonable budget.

4) A friend of mine hooked me up with a local wholesaler and I''m going to check out what he has later this week. Any advice on what to look for?

If they sell to the public, they''re not a wholesaler, they''re still a retailer. I''d stick with the PS vendors because they have a great reputation, and some seem to be local to you based on your posts.

Hope that helps!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/19/2008 3:09:21 PM
Author: jotang
Thank you all for your suggestions.

I have made a few appointments with different vendors, including some of PS's favoriates to look at some princess cuts. I have absolutely no experience looking at diamonds, so what should I be looking out for? Any suggestion would be greately appreciated.

The simplest way is to find a vendor you like, and especially if you don't have the time to spend researching, tell them what you are looking for concerning colour, clarity, carat and budget, and let their expertise guide you. Some of the vendors sell AGS0 Princess which can make it easier to find a beautifully cut Princess, as some of the others have mentioned. Stick to vendors who have in house diamonds such as -

www.goodoldgold.com

www.winkjones.com

www.whiteflash.com

www.jamesallen.com ( you have already perused their site)

Many of these vendors can supply detailed photos and ASET images which are very useful to judge fancy shapes, this should make your selections easier.