Help urgently needed with choosing from three HRD certified diamonds.

[dkaut]

Dear all:

I am new to this forum (and to buying diamonds) and would highly appreciate to receive your thoughts on the following matter:

I am about to buy a brilliant cut diamond from a renowned Munich (Germany) based jeweller whom I have been trusting for years.

The stones I can choose from are:

1. 1.020ct, F, VS2, Prop/Finish vg/vg, Flu str, Tabl% 59.0, Crwn% 14.5, Pavl% 42.5, Girdle med 3.5, Culet pointed, 6.44-6.47*3.92 (I calculate a depth% of 60.7).
2. 1.100ct, F, VS2, Prop/Finish vg/g, Flu med, Tabl% 58.0, Crwn% 15.5, Pavl% 43.5, Girdle med 4 FA, Culet pointed, 6.52-6.60*4.11 (I calculate a depth% of 62.7).
3. 1.010ct, F, VS2, Prop/Finish vg/g, Flu str, Tabl% 60.0, Crwn% 13.0, Pavl% 43.0, Girdle thin 2.5, Culet pointed, 6.51-6.67*3.84 (I calculate a depth% of 58.3).

Each stone would come with an HRD certificate which I am not at all worrying about as HRD is very common here in Germany and in fact very well reputed. Neither am I concerned about the fluorescence as the jeweller''s Antwerp trader guarantees none of the stones to show any "milkyness" in strong UV light. Stone #1 receives an HCA score of 1.1, stone #2 an HCA score of 5.1 and stone #3 an HCA score of 1.3.

I, personally, would favour stone #1 as it scores best on HCA and has a vg finish. I could also imagine picking stone #2 but am a little undecided about the merely "good" finish. I tend to dislike stone #2 not only for the HCA score but also for the fact that I would need to spend a considerable amount of extra money to buy an additional 0.1 ct that I, personally, have no need for (I just want the stone to be > 1.0 ct.). However, the jeweller''s trader (whom the jeweller knows very well and trusts) considers just this stone #2 best looking.

I have not seen any of the stones in person and I am a little uncertain about which stone to choose but have the sincere hope that your thoughts help me to make a decision. Making your assessment, you might want to consider the following:

- The stone is to be set as an engagement ring in a setting that will fully enclose the lower part of the stone. This might seem odd to you but is not unusual here (in fact, the whole engagement ring thing is not too much of an issue in Germany). However, I guess that I need a diamond with very good light return in order for the stone not to "die" when set. Obviously, I would be happy to have a very fiery/flashy stone.

- Buying diamonds in Germany is more difficult than in the US. There is no domestic online traders (I do not want to order from the US for organizational reasons and because the applicable customs/taxes are very considerable) and the vast majority of jewellers will usually not get you more than one or two stones to actually choose from. So there is not too many alternatives for me (actually, the above stones already are a selection from 11 stones).

As I said already, I would greatly appreciate your feedback on this issue. I will (have to) make a decision on the weekend as stones around 1ct. apparently sell very quickly.

Thank you and kind regards

David

 

[Lorelei]

Welcome dkaut!

Looking at your selections, I would be most interested in the first diamond. The table is a little larger than we normally see here, but that wouldn't stop it from being a pretty diamond, see what you think when you see it. The second diamond has a little extra depth, it appears to be what we call a steep deep, there is a possibility it could leak light and look dark in some lights, check this one out very carefully, as it may not be the best choice. The third diamond looks to have a shallow depth, however it appears to be a good looking stone, but I still think the first one is the one to concentrate on.

 

[dkaut]

Lorelei,

Thank you very much indeed for the warm welcome and your quick response. It confirms my gut feeling and I can move forward much more confident now

.

Thank you again!
David

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/4/2008 7:08:30 AM
Author: dkaut
Lorelei,

Thank you very much indeed for the warm welcome and your quick response. It confirms my gut feeling and I can move forward much more confident now

.

Thank you again!
David

You are very welcome David! Best of luck with that, and please let us know how you get on!

 

[Indira-London]

Being based in London (working for an Antwerp-based company), I also have more experience with HRD than most Americans probably. I agree that HRD is very reputable in grading colour and clarity. Their proportion-grade does give you some information about cut quality though it is best to have an expert help you as the range of proportions is wide. Also I hear that the HRD are due to announce their new Cut-grade later this month.

Of the three stones suggested, I would definitely reject number 2. It is too deep, and has too much weight hiding in the girdle. Remember that 4% girdle, reported by HRD, translates in almost 6% girdle in GIA-language. Of the 10% extra that you are paying for the weight, you will not get a visually bigger diameter.

If you are going to see the stones personally, you can use an Idealscope to help you make your decision.

 

[dkaut]

Indira,

Thank you very much indeed as your reponse is very helpful, too.

I have already asked the jeweller to have stone #1 and, if possible, also stone #3 delivered for me to see them personally. I am confident that both will eventually turn out to be quite pretty.

I will let you guys know what I eventually went for.

Kind regards
David

 

[Indira-London]

As both diamond no 1 and 3 have strong fluorescence - be sure to check them out if you can in strong sunshine as sometimes strong flurorescence can make a diamond appear milky/hazy in strong sunshine

 

[dkaut]

Dear Indira,

I will be able to check out diamond #1 (my favourite) on Saturday. The jeweller has no problem at all with me taking the diamond outside the shop to see it in natural light. Unfortunately, the weather forecast tells me that Saturday will probably be a cloudy or even rainy day (and so will be the days after).

As the jeweller ordered the stone from his Antwerp trader for me to inspect, waiting for better weather is probably not an option. However, I am kind of paranoid about buying a stone that might be beautifully sparkling in the store''s artificial lightning and possibly even the natural light of a cloudy day but turns out to be an ugly cloudy monster on the first sunny day to come.

I have spent hours reading the past posts on this subject. From those posts and the frequently referred to GIA study, I figure that it is highly unlikely that the stone actually is hazy/cloudy/chalky. But some expert opinion on this issue would probably make me feel more comfortable.

What should I be looking for in the lightning conditions that I expect? Should I bring a UV light to the shop? Would I notice the hazyness if I inspected the stone in the shop with the UV light pointed at it? What are the lighting options that I should check out before agreeing to buy the stone?

If there is no bright sun on Sunday (as I expect), would it make sense to purchase the stone subject to the condition that it is not hazy/cloudy/chalky in bright sunlight?

Any thoughts on this matter are highly welcome.

Kind regards
David

 

[Indira-London]

My comment re. try to see the diamond in sunlight was not meant to cause you such alarm as the mikly/hazy effect only occurs in very few strongly fluorescent diamonds.

Here is a summary from GIA study on this subject which should help alleviate some of your concerns. Overall, if the vendor allows it I would get him to agree to take back the diamond in future IF it turns out to be milky/hazy in strong sunlight in future

"Some gem diamonds fluoresce, most commonly blue, to the concentrated long-wave ultraviolet radiation of a UV lamp. There is a perception in the trade that this fluorescence has a negative effect on the overall appearance of such a diamond. Visual observation experiments were conducted to study this relationship. Four sets of very similar round brilliant diamonds, covering the color range from colorless to faint yellow,

were selected for the different commonly encountered strengths of blue fluorescence they represented. These diamonds were then observed by trained graders, trade professionals, and average observers in various stone positions and lighting environments. For the average observer, meant to represent the jewelry buying public, no systematic effects of fluorescence were detected. Even the experienced observers did not consistently agree on the effects of fluorescence from one stone to the next. In general, the results revealed that strongly blue fluorescent diamonds were perceived to have a better color appearance when viewed table-up, with no discernible trend table-down. Most observers saw no relationship between fluorescence and transparency." For more information see http://www.gia.edu/pdfs/W97_fluoresce.pdf which is the results of GIA research on this subject.

 

[dkaut]

Thank you again, Indira, for your helpful hints and tips. To give you a little follow-up: I have meanwhile had the chance to inspect the diamond twice and I think that it looks stunning. What bothered me at first was that the inclusion is a very small carbon splinter sitting right under the table. But I am quite sure that my girlfriend will not pull out the 10x magnifier when she is being given the ring. This should, therefore, not be an issue.

The only concern remaining is the fluorescence. Even though I could check out the stone in extremely bright sunlight (around noon on a cloudless day), I could only inspect it wrapped in the HRD sealed box. As the diamond showed almost no blue color or anything the like, I assume that the HRD box is not permeable to UV light. But I sent an email to HRD in order to have this answered. Does anyone here know, by the way?

The current status is that should HRD inform me that the seal box is actually permeable to UV light, then I would by the stone right away. If they tell me that the box shields the UV light, what I assume, then I will try to get a refund right should the fluorescence make the stone appear hazy / milky. After all, having looked at the photos posted in this forum of fluorescing stones, I think that they actually look quite nice.

I will let you know what the eventual decision was. Again, thank you very much indeed for your advice. It made things much easier for me.

Kind regards
David

 

[Indira-London]

Hello David
Thank you for posting your update - its good to know that you are making progress.
I can see that you started another thread re. HRD seal and fluorescence and last I look Paul-Antwerp had answered it - it will be good to know too what HRD says re. seal.

I am surprised that your trader did not open the seal for you so that you could look at it then and there?
When I have a client who is serious about a diamond then I open the seal if they are considering buying that diamond.