Help! Tolkowsky vs Pricescope

[cjrusso]

Help, I''m thoroughly confused!

I am looking at a diamond with the following specifications:
EGL Certificate
round brilliant
weight: 1.11 ct
measurements: 6.74x6.7x4.1
depth: 61.0
width: 57
crown height: 15
pavilion depth: 44
girdle: TN-MD, FACETED
polish: GD
SYM: VG
Culet: None
Clarity: SI1
Graining Nil
Comments:
Tolkowsky Ideal Cut

BUT, when I plug in these numbers to the cut advisor, I get the following:
Light Return Very Good
Fire Fair
Scintillation Fair
Spread
Very Good
Total Visual Performance 4.4 - Good - Only if price is your main criterion

LASTLY, I received the following from the broker (whom I feel I can trust a bit):
"I was just looking at the physical product that you placed requests for, and the 1.11 RB H SI1 that you requested looked most impressive. Extremely fiery and brilliant and a solid color and clarity grade on the stone. I just wanted to convey some detail that isn’t decipherable by the certificate.


What should I do and whom should I trust? By the way, the price is: $3,713.62

I don''t understand how a Tol. Id. Cut could give such bad values in the HCA.

Any help is appreciated!

Chris

 

[sumi]

So, instead of "Tolkowsky vs. Pricescope" you really mean "Tolkowsky vs. HCA", right? This is a question that's been hotly debated a lot around here. Try doing a search on HCA and you will find a lot of info.

Is there a way for you to actually see the stone for yourself? Why don't you check out the stone with your own eyes (if possible).

May I ask who the broker is?

 

[pricescope]

It is actually Tolkowsky vs EGL - the way they understand what Tolkowsky proportions really are. What EGL lab is it (USA, Israel, Belgium)?

Re. HCA: using rounded crown and pavilion depth % is useless/inaccurate.

 

[Mara]

Also just because EGL inscribes 'Tolowsky Ideal Cut' on it's girdle does not make it TRUE. That's very important. Also, Tolowsky's cut actually is not considered 'ideal' in most circles any longer...the girdle is too thin amongst other items.

Back at the time, yes it was a breakthrough but that was almost 100 years ago. Technology and cutting has changed. So in essence, EGL is just capitalizing on a well-known name in the industry, a forefather of cut if you will, and using his name as a brand along with the magic words 'ideal cut' to make you think this stone should automatically be great.




As Leonid also noted...the True Tolowsky numbers are 53% table, 59.3% girdle, 16.2% crown angle and 43.1 pav angle...how remotely does your stone come close to these numbers? It doesn't. So the inscription is definitely misleading.




Just as not all stones inscribed with Hearts and Arrows on their girdles are going to be a) true hearts and arrows and b) beautiful, not everything with TIC on it's girdle is going to be a) a true TIC or b) beautiful.




In many cases the HCA can be used when the numbers are not enough, if the HCA gave a stone I was considering a 4.4...I would pass just because the 4 is so far off from where I'd actually want to be (e.g. around 2), and because there are so many other stones out there, why should I settle?




Good luck!

 

[niceice]

EGL's "Tolkowsky Rating" is what they consider to be within "tolerance" of the original Tolkowsky specifications and in our opinion isn't even close

 

[sumi]

So, to answer the original question...is everyone saying that EGL's standard for what qualifies as a Tolkowsky ideal cut is so lenient that some of the stones won't be very good at all? On top of that, the Tolkowsky ideal cut is not longer what most would consider "ideal". Those two factors together is what caused this stone to get a less than hot HCA score. Am I getting this right?

This person says that s/he trusts their jeweler and that the jeweler says is a great stone. I think this is the poster's main concern. Can anyone explain?

 

[niceice]

As far as we're concerned, the only thing that EGL "paper" is good for is lining the bottom of a bird cage which is why we don't represent EGL graded diamonds - totally inaccurate in our opinion... A Mall Store Game / paper shuffle so to speak. Tell the jeweler that you only want to consider diamonds graded by the AGS or GIA laboratories if you want to be looking at diamonds that are likely to be consistently graded. Diamond prices are based upon the clarity and color combinations (as well as proportions and carat weight) so it stands to reason that you would want to get what you're paying for, so forget about EGL graded stones. Run a search here on PS for EGL, this topic has been discussed again and again...

No - EGL "Tolkowksy" is not considered to be "ideal" by legitimate dealers of ideal cut diamonds. This Page on our site explains it pretty thoroughly.

 

[cjrusso]

Gosh, thanks so much everyone! The website is diabroker.com..... I believe that is an Israeli diamond broker.

Here's another point of confusion for me....I liked EGL because it gave me the proportions I could plug into HCA. The only other cert. place I saw do that is AGSL. I know everywhere I've read that GIA is the best, GIA is the strictest, etc., but without giving me proportions, am I at the mercy of what the broker considers an Ideal cut? Am I able to demand a Sarin report from an online retailer?

Thanks in advance!

Chris

 

[pricescope]

Chris, many online vendors have either Sarin or Ogi and can help you with that. AGS reports are cosideres as strict as GIA.

There is also a difference between different EGL labs. EGL USA reports are considered stricter than from oversees.

 

[Mara]

Yes, demand a Sarin even if there is an AGS cert. EGL certs with their %'s are not as accurate as angles which AGS and Sarins give you.




I would focus on GIA and AGS with EGL in a pinch (e.g. if you found an absolutely amazing EGL stone....) and I would get them independently appraised to confirm all grading, even GIA and AGS.




Good luck!