Help Please - E, SI2, Good Price?

[daragon]

I have finally found a stone that I like, but I need some help as this is my first diamond purchase.

It is an E and SI2. Cut is Good. IGI certified.

I''ve looked at it under a microscope. It is white, I understand IGI can be more lenient than GIA, however I assume that would mean GIA would grade it an F at worse, which would still be acceptable. However, I''ve looked at hundreds, and this is the white''st I''ve seen.

SI2 - I cannot pick out the inclusions with my eye but can see them under the microscope. They are in the center but small. In my opinion it is "eye clean"

It is 71 points.

A reputable local jeweler has it, I have checked him out and he has a great reputation.

He wants $1,000 for the stone, and $1,900 total for it to be set in a 18K white gold vintage engraved setting that I have picked out.

Is this a good deal for the stone? I assume that he is selling the diamond to me at cost, and making money on the ring. I also assume that the IGI cert allows for a lower price. This is a personal piece, and I''m not worried about resale etc.

He also has personal/political reasons to give me a good deal.

Thanks for the feedback

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Have you looked at many diamonds critically under different lighting side by side. It looks to me like the cut is probably terrible, and it is probably covered in one enormous cloud that may be hindering light performance, my logical for which I will explain in a moment.

even on Blue Nile an E SI2 good/fair cut search yields the cheapest diamond as 1855 here and on the pricescope search the cheapest is 1519 with an EGL cert which would usually be considered even less reputable right?

so in order for your jeweler to be selling that diamond at that price it either has to have something very wrong with its cut or something else (meaning its giong to look terrible. note, you can get 1ct diamonds for a couple hundred dollars, its all about cut and how bad the clarity is affecting performance).

Because you say the diamond looks especially white lets assume they got the color grade right. So why do you think that the jeweler is selling this diamond so cheap? either the clarity grade is affecting performance, or the clarity grade is misgraded and it is really a lower clarity. However, because you cant see them with your naked eye and it doesnt seem to be glaringly obvious under magnification then I cant help but think that the only option left is that it is an inclusion that is affecting performance causing the SI2 grade. And the only inclusion I can think of that would be small enough to be invisible while being large enough to hae serious performance impacts would be a pretty handsome cloud. So honestly, that seems to be the only option left according to your description, though I could be wrong.

Combine an inclusion that is affecting light performance with a terrible cut that allows for very minimal right return already (which this one may well be, we really dont have enough information such as angles and so forth to make a good determination) and you are goign to have one crappy diamond.

My word of advice--it doesnt matter who it is, your sisters husband or a stranger, if the only explanation you can come up with for why you are getting such a good deal is that he is selling you the diamond at his own cost then it you should probably run. On top of that you have the fact that the setting doesnt sound half bad, probably a good 400 bucks in its own right? maybe even more we would really need an image or something to know for sure? but so I really dont see any room for any profit at all for him in this situation if everything was as is described.

Unless he is your dad, I am pretty sure you are being had somehow, of course knownig more about those personal or political reasons would help. When it comes down ot it I say pay a fair price for beautiful diamond than a cheap price for a crappy one--even if you call me old fashioned when it comes to Erings.

My guess would be that once you got this bad boy home and in a ring its not giong to look nearly as good as other alternatives would, and I daresay may well look pretty bad--either way in my opiniion there are much more appropriate options for an ering.

And sorry, on reviewing my post I probably could have been a little more succinct, but I dont really feel ike going through and editing it

 

[daragon]

So if the stone looks good, it is a great price. If my novice eyes are wrong, its an ok price?

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Its a damn good price, even an EGL E I1 is giong to cost you more than that. Though I suspect you are being had on the setting too. Any pictures or can you find one online to see what the going price for it is?

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

A coupel of major questions I am wondering.

1) where else have you REALLY looked at diamonds--only at the associates shop?

2) when you did a comparison of color, how did you know what the color was of the other diamonds you looked at? were they certified, and key question WHO reported them to be said color. If he compared your IGI E against another diamond that he said was a G but might actually come back from AGS as an I, then it could be very missleading

3) did you compare them side by side. Various things such as lighting can have a major impact on performance. Then other elements such as the color shirt he was wearing,t he color of the ceiling, if he pointed it at the while when showing it to you and other various tactics can be used to fool the unprepared customer.

and how exactly did you determine that it looked so white? face up, face down, etc.

I suppose I will go and look for some other options to give you though, instead of just being critical

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

oh and one more question, what is the mm spread of your diamond?

obviously we need more data to determine what we think of its light performance, but you can look at it. but that will be important when finding other options.

 

[daragon]

I placed it beside an EGL F, a GIA G (the highest he had in GIA in terms of color), and another IGI J. It was whiter than all three, esp the J!

I have had trouble finding anything in an E-F in stock at any local dealers, so I could not compare the IGI E to the GIA E.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

they were all loose and face down? I woudlnt doubt the color at all myself.

the problem is that only makes the deal much more circumspect. I stand by my position that its probably a light performance affecting inclusion and a terrible cut--we already know its not a top of the line cut at the very least--, which might not be blatantly obvious in the store but in real world living conditions might be very apparant.

Obviously we cant figure out anything without more cut info though, and without some type of inclusion plot its difficult to say in that regard as well, though from your description it doesnt sound like it could be much of anything else. We also dont know what the relationship is you are talking about, but like I said, I find it highly suspect that he woudl be cutting you a deal at his own loss. though I suppose its possible, especially as it isnt exactly a top of the line stone.

However, I am still thinking this is the only store you have really compared at right? and knowing he doesnt carry over a G in GIA diamonds I think he probably doesnt have any ideal cut stones either? if he does find an ideal cut stone by AGS or find an Excellent GIA and compare them directly. So I have to ask again, is this the only place you have looked?

 

[daragon]

Just called the dealer at home. He doesn''t have the cert with him so I cant provide extra info.



Here is the history of said diamond - it came from an individual in the community who was divorced (I actually know the person and checked this out yesterday). Basically, the lady wanted to get rid of the diamond after a rough separation (His story confirmed). The dealer purchased it, or rather stole it apparently. She said she wasn''t happy with the price she sold it for, but that the "spite had filled her" and she wanted it gone quick. He is apparently giving it to me for the same price he bought it for (LOL he must feel bad). So he must be making money on taking out the stone and setting it in a new mount and ring, which is fine with me, businesses are profit based right

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

well I dont think its going to be moving very fast. So I say take your time. Wait until he gets the cert and get all the info. Go to more stores, look at top of the line performing diamonds. Then spend time looking for other settings, because its very possible that the setting you are getting is only worht a couple hundred dollars, maybe a bit more, in which case that leaves you 1500 dollars or more to pick a diamond. And for 1500 bucks you can easily get a truly beautiful diamond that will probably perform much better than the one you are looking at and will please your FF in many many situations. Believe me, people notice when you have an ideal cut diamond, your fiance most of all as it sparkles in the parking garage and lights up in the hallway and blinds her in the sunlight. It is def worth it in my opinion, even if you lose .05 cts or something. And that is where the nubmers become important

you need angles to see how it will perform in various lighting circumstances. Symmetery images to see if its cut well aside from the average angle value. and MM width is also crucial. If your diamond is deep then it might be facing up like a .55-.6 ct diamond, in which case you could get a significantly better performing diamond for the same price that looks the same size. Still too many unknowns, so take your time and dont jump on the first magical deal. Just let your jeweler know that you want to take it cautiously but are very very interested.

 

[daragon]

Thanks for the advice.

I''ve looked at other stones in other stores. This just seems like a good value.

 

[daragon]

Any INFO or OPINIONS welcomed!!!

I have the cert: IGI New York

4.75 x 4.74 x 3.66MM

E SI(2)

Polish Symmetry: Good/Fair

SOA: #30796249

Date: 1/3/2001


ALSO: I looked at it again, there appear to be two small clouds in the stone, one in the center - one at 7 o'clock towards the edge. I cannot make them out with my eye even after knowing where they are at.

ALSO: I picked up a VERY VERY VERY small speck in the stone, almost pink/black intertwined - shaped like a very small peice of carbon.

Please ADVISE!!!

 

[alexah]

Date: 8/29/2007 1:42:36 PM
Author: daragon
Any INFO or OPINIONS welcomed!!!

I have the cert: IGI New York

4.75 x 4.74 x 3.66MM

E SI(2)

Polish Symmetry: Good/Fair

did you type that correctly? if so, "your" stone faces up like an approx .40 ct round. it is a round, right?

i used the PS search engine and, for ex, the first hit i got for a decent-cut F .40 SI2 RB (4.78-4.80x2.85) was $446 on whiteflash.

please do some more research before you hand over your hard-earned $

-besides, the story attached to it isn''t exactly a happy one, is it?

 

[lyra]

Ditto all that has been said, and add another: before you purchase any stone, it''s in your best interests to have it appraised by an independent appraiser. Not the person you''re buying from, not from their appraiser, but a third party. It isn''t very expensive, maybe around $50 or less, and it can make all the difference between confirming a "good deal" or a "bad deal". Good luck!

 

[daragon]

Yes it typed that right - it is a princess cut - and the cert says .71

 

[alexah]

Date: 8/29/2007 4:56:05 PM
Author: daragon
Yes it typed that right - it is a princess cut - and the cert says .71

ah, it''s a princess cut- that makes it somewhat better, face-up size-wise. a good deal? if you really like the stone, it''s an ok deal. i can find you a whole slew of well-cut GIA-certified princesses that are around $1000 & E/F SI1 or SI2s. I''ll post a few for comparison''s sake, that are similar in size to "your" stone (measurement-wise):

BN .61 E SI2

WF .59 E SI1 $1046 PS price

WF .65 F SI1 for $1085 PS price

BN .56 F SI2

Any chance you could look at a few more stones before you decide that that one is "the one"?

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Check out the GOG video tutorials on the differences between Ideal cut and nonIdeal cut princess cuts.

I dont know anything about princess cuts myself and so I cant direct you to the links. However, if you follow this thread:

Thread

you will see that the discussion is really about the new Princess of Hearts. If you look down the page you will find some posts by StrmDr where he attaches two videos. The first of these two videos starts out with a normal Princess (one that is probably much more inline with the princess you are looking at) and then about halfway through the video it then compares the POH to an Ideal cut princess.

So, ignore the POH diamond, and focus instead on the HUGE visual difference between the average Princess and the Ideal princess. click back and forth and watch the two diamonds perform. Then go on a quest to find a video that is designed to specificalyl compare the two, I am sorry I cant direct you to those better videos myself, but this one will demonstrate just how apparant the difference is, even when not compared side by side.

I dont feel that a stone with that cutgrade combined with thsoe sym/polish grades is Ering worthy regardless of any deal, and especially not while the inclusions remain unknown and questionable per its fairly low grade.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

also, it looks like in well cut stone ranges it is facing up like a .65ct stone.

What that means is that the MM spread that you see when looking at the diamond would be the same for a .65ct well cut princess. Therefore, you can easily drop your ct weight to .6-.65 get an ideal cut and not see a visual difference in size when looking at your diamonds spread. however, the visual difference in performance would be very real.

 

[daragon]

Ordered this instead: Union Diamond

Diamond Information: Diamond Details:
Stock Number AA508328
Certificate: GIA
Shape: Round
Cut: Very Good
Carat: 0.78
Color: E
Clarity: VS2
Regular Price: $2541
Wire Transfer Price: $2467

Diamond Proportions:
Measurements: 5.86-5.82-3.7
Depth Percentage: 63.4 %
Table Percentage: 57 %
Girdle: STK-TK
Culet: None (Pointed)
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Good
Fluorescence: Moderate
Special Notes: Beautiful Diamond!

Any Feedback?

 

[daragon]

Anybody please comment upon the above diamond specs:

From the measurements, it seems to face more like a .74-.75 which is ok

I assme an E, VS1 by GIA has to be a much better diamond than an E SI2 by IGI. Thoughts?

The flour is blue they said, I will inspect it, they have a great return policy, if it is too strong or milky I will call them.

 

[alexah]

Date: 8/30/2007 2:21:41 PM
Author: daragon
Ordered this instead: Union Diamond

Certificate: GIA
Shape: Round
Cut: Very Good
Carat: 0.78
Color: E
Clarity: VS2
Regular Price: $2541
Wire Transfer Price: $2467

Diamond Proportions:
Measurements: 5.86-5.82-3.7
Depth Percentage: 63.4 %
Table Percentage: 57 %
Girdle: STK-TK
Culet: None (Pointed)
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Good
Fluorescence: Moderate
Special Notes: Beautiful Diamond!

Any Feedback?

it''s better than the original one you posted, that''s for sure!

but shoot if yer going to pay that kind of money, personally, i''d rather get a H&A (the ''good'' symmetry isnt the greatest w a round & it''s a little deep...) how about this one instead for $2564?

0.72 F SI1 61.3% 57% GIA m-stk no ex ex no 5.76x5.79x3.54 $2564*SP http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=7219496&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

yea I agree, you should be getting an ideal cut hands down but per your ct weight thats a pretty nice price. We would need other information to see how its cut is checking out. But I dont think you seemed too interested in our analysis of cuts

and at the very least its going to look perform better than the first one.

one thing to remember though is that while it is a very good price per ct weight, its a bit deep. Because it is so deep its facing up VERY close to a well cut .7-.73ct diamond. And so lowering ct weight and improving ct is probably still your best bet, but of course that is alot easier said than doen when factoring in lower color grades and the availalbe selection. Anyway, I hope it looks good, I bet she will be pretty happy with it either way!

 

[daragon]

I'm impatient - it's done.

If I don't like it I'll send it back.

OH, and most importantly - THANKS for the HELP!