Help needed: Toronto Neophyte

[swayed]

Hi pricescopers,
I have been reading posts for the past week, and appreciate how much knowledge you have all been willing to share! This forum is amazing for someone who is starting out on their search, so thanks!! I have a bit of a dilemna, and I am hoping I might get some insight from you knowledgable folks. If any of the people that I have contacted see themselves on this thread, I hope you aren''t offended or think that I am wasting your time, as I am just sort of figuring it out as I go...
To begin with, my boyfriend and I are on somewhat of a limited budget, as he has been out of work for several months and has just started a new job. He was lovely enough to let me choose my ring, so that I will have something I will love forever.
Of course we started out at the mall: Birks, European Jewelery and People''s. After deciding on a delicately engraved, knife-cut solitaire, double pronged Scott Kay band in white gold and a small cushion cut diamond, I heeded Maria''s advice and went to Aziz at the Jewelery Exchange. He and his wife were very pleasant, friendly and reassuring. His wife said she could custom design exactly what I wanted (I wanted the diamond to sit lower, and the band to be under 2.5mm) for aprox $450. Aziz said he would look for a selection of cushion cuts and we made an appointment for Thurs (2 days from now).

HOWEVER, the more I read on this forum, the more I worried that the quality of the diamonds I would see in Toronto might not be the best, and especially when I read others'' posts re: Gemscan. So on Monday, I contacted Martin at U.S.A Cert Diamonds, who was great on the phone (picked up on 1st ring each time!). He also said that the best quality diamonds are not in Toronto, and said he would send me a list of diamonds within my parameters (0.5-0.7ct, G or better, SI1 or better, ideal or v good cut, rectangular) from NY. We discussed a 0.61 ct stone (which is the weight I was hoping for), and he e-mailed the GIA cert with the following specs:
0.61ct, SI1, Colour E Fluorescence none
5.43x4.73x3.27mm depth 59.1% table 57%
Girdle M-ST, faceted Culat Medium Polish Exc Symmetry Exc
Price 1745 US (plus misc charges, e.g. shipping, taxes, broker fees)
As no photo is available, he suggested I work with D Atlas in Philly to verify and handle shipping of the stone from NY to Toronto (Not a problem, we have e-mailed and I feel comfortable with this).
He also suggested I talk to Victor about the setting, and believe me, I was relieved to get a recommendation from Martin as I was worried about the amount of hand engraving on the chosen band. This is where it gets complicated.
I went to see Victor the same day, and he said as he had no settings in stock that were what I wanted, it would cost min $1500 to make the setting in white gold. As this is 3x the earlier quote I had from Aziz (and I received a quote of about $550 from another vendor), I was somewhat taken aback. I was very honest with him, and told him what the other quotes I had were. He explained that he would have the top engraver in Toronto working on it, and that he would fully guarantee the workmanship, cover any damage to the stone during setting (i.e. replace the stone), that he would make as many dummies (I think this is the term?) as needed to make sure we both thought it was perfect.
We spoke enough that I was convinced that he would provide a perfect product, however, his engraver is on vacation so it will take 3 weeks to complete the ring (longer than ideal. When I spoke to my bf, he rationalized that it should not cost the same for the band as the stone, and at that price, we could have the ring corrected 3 times before the cost evened out.

I then spoke to Aziz today, and explained that I would like to see his selection against the stone in NY, and that I would just like to choose the better-looking stone. Based on the numbers, he said he felt he could provide a similar stone at the same price. However,
a) He is away until Thurs (and Martin will be open Wed but closed the remainder of the week for 4th of July) so I can''t see them until then.
b) He said that he could not take the liability of making a ring for a diamond we did not buy from him, because of the risk of damage from setting the stone.
c) He also felt that I would have difficulty getting anyone to set the stone if I didn''t buy the diamond from them.
d) He felt I was best off buying the ring and diamond from a local vendor to reduce all the risks. I have agreed to see him on Thursday to see what he has available.

So we finally come to my questions (thanks for your patience!!!):
1. I think I am comfortable with the NY stone if it is verified in Philly and I see a photo of it. Do you feel a photo will be enough to tell if I will love it, or do I need to see it in person?

2. Are the diamonds in Toronto really crap compared to ones in NY? If so, is this in general or will I never be able to find a stone as good in T.O? I understand that the cushion cuts are much rarer, but as I won''t be able to compare apples to oranges (Toronto stones in person vs U.S stone in photo), I''m not sure I''ll be able to accurately tell which is better.

3. Does anyone know of anyone who will set a 3rd party stone while taking liability for damage to the stone? I am of course willing to buy insurance for this, if such a thing exists in Toronto.

4. Does anyone have good experience with a custom engraver?
Based on a post, I checked out the diamond shoppe at Yonge and Charles, but I am not sure if they were closed for the long weekend or have closed down business.

5. Does it make sense to pay that much for the band when we are on a limited budget? i.e. is there a good chance that the work will be shoddy otherwise?
If it helps, I can post further information on the diamonds Aziz shows me on Thurs, but I am not sure you can tell which is better without seeing them side by side...

thanks very much for any light you can shed for me, and also for all your other posts!!!

 

[Spirit]

Swayed- I can appreciate your dilemma as I went through a similar experience. I finally purchased from GOG and I am convinced that I could not have found the same quality stone in Toronto. Importing it was not so complicated. As far as having it set, haven''t done that yet, but it will be done locally.
Good luck in your search.

 

[customcushion]

We just imported a stunning Cushion Brilliant from Israel, via Toronto, and had it set in a custom Platinum piece designed by a Toronto Artisan. It is true that a stone like ours is not readily available on the "commercial" market in Ontario, but can be found if you''re dealing with people who *know* Cushions.

If you don''t have a relationship with a jeweler or diamond broker (who knows Cushions well) that you trust implicitly, and it sounds like you don''t, I''d just deal with one of the reccomended PS online people in the US. They seem to do a very good job, across the board.

 

[swayed]

Thanks Spirit and custom cushion. That makes me feel a little better. Would you feel comfortable telling me who you are working with for the setting?

Has anyone heard of Made you Look on Queen St? I''ve been told it''s a showcase for local jewelery artisans and am going to check them out today...

 

[customcushion]

Hi Swayed

The artisan who did our setting only works in platinum and I think may be more than you''re looking to spend.

Have you thought about a non-custom setting ?

 

[Dreamer_D]

Swayed if you want a cushion I think you should call Mark at ERD, have him select a cushion for you and make you a setting, they have a great selection. He is THE cushion dude on PS and has a phenomenal reputation and a good return/ refund policy. They can then ship the finished product to you, or to an independent appraiser. Or you can have the stone appraised first, but many PSers trust mark's eye for cushions implicitly. Cushions are the hardest stones to buy and should not be bought sight unseen or without a trusted pair of eyes seeing it.

Then, either Mark or the appraiser can ship the stone to you in Canada. The shipping company will take it through customs and since there is not longer and importing fees, all you will pay is GST and PST on the ring, something you would have paid anyways.

I am in Ontario too and recently went through this process with WF and it was simple and painless.

I personally would not deal with anyone locally anymore. I just do not trust most jewelers, to be frank, because you don't get the same reviews of service for most local jewlers that you can get for recommended PS vendors. With the sheer volume of reviews available for ERD on PS, you know exactly what you are getting into.

Also, you really get what you pay for with settings, so goign cheap is not the best option. I think you should consider getting a simpel solitaire for now and save up to have you stone set into your dream Scott kay setting once you have enough $$ for the real thing. Custom rings have a way of going wrong, and from my own experience, those "$500 specials" are really poor quality.

 

[swayed]

Thanks Dreamer Dachsie, that''s good advice. I only hesitate because I''m a very upfront person and I hate asking all these vendors to waste their time doing ''backflips'' for me when in the end I can only work with one. I told the first two vendors right away that I was speaking to others about what kind of cushion-cuts they could get, so they knew that I may not buy from them, so I don''t want to get anyone else involved for now...

Do you think Scott Kay rings are worth the price? I had never heard the name before last week, so I am not sure what the company''s reputation is like (I especially don''t want to be buying for the brand name of a brand that I''ve never heard of!)

 

[customcushion]

Swayed, you''re not likely going to get great service from a professional without committing to work with them.

If you lived in an area where you had easy access to fine quality Cushions, you could go from vendor to vendor looking at what they have, and then evaluate.

As I understand it, you need to find a vendor who has expertise in finding and selecting a fine Cushion, and who will then import it to Canada for you - this is not the same [but not mutually exclusive of] the person who will give you the best price for a diamond.

If you''re looking for the best price, you''re not looking for the best Cushion. If you want the best Cushion at the best price, then find one vendor you like and trust (who has a track record of doing this), and ask them to find your cushion for you, within your budget parameters.

Lots of people have reccomended online PS vendors. If I didn''t have a relationship with an international diamond importer in Toronto, I would have worked with one of the online vendors too. I think you should take the good advice being offered.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Scott Kay is a premium designer, only you ca ndeside if he is "worth it". It will be a much nicer ring than the $500-special.

Ditto what cushion cut said.

 

[swayed]

Thanks again for your advice (I am considering it all while I decide...)
Thought I should clarify some things: first is that both vendors that I''ve spoken to were highly recommended on this forum. Martin has over 70 glowing recommendations here, so I am confident that the diamond (specs above) he has found will be of the same quality as those of other PS vendors. And as far as budget, that isn''t that big a deal: by looking for a diamond under .7 ct, I think I''ve already lowered his expected budget by thousands...

My main concerns are 1) buying the diamond without seeing it in person (since I''ve read over and over on PS how tricky cushions are to judge without seeing them with your own eyes) and 2) finding someone to make the band and set the diamond. While I agree you usually get what you pay for, I wasn''t sure if the math makes sense here: I assume with Scott Kay, there is a large markup based on the brand name (which, isn''t something I value). The authentic Scott Kay band is $1650. Yet to custom make it by the person Martin recommended, would cost almost the same. This is why I hesitate...

In addition, after talking to Aziz about the fact that there was another stone I was interested in from another vendor (Martin), he called to tell me he would be bringing in a diamond of the same grade from NY, and that it will be here in a week. I also spoke to his wife about everything that could possibly go wrong in making the band, and she was very reassuring. So were the many examples of her work that she showed me. So I''m hoping to post the stats from both diamonds here to get some opinons. My thoughts are if it turns out to be a dud, at that point, I will either put the other diamond into play or contact ERD.

Sigh... sorry to be so conflicted... my bf is right, I am overthinking every step of this process! Hopefully, a beautiful ring will be all the therapy I need...

 

[Dreamer_D]

Sounds like a good plan! I have also read good things about Martin. My only hesitation would be that Martin does not have an upgrade policy that I know of, and he is not an expert in cushions, but it sounds like you have a good idea about checking it all out and if you love it when you see it, and the price is fair, that is all that really matters.

As for the setting, I agree that Scott Kay charges a ridiculous mark-up for his name, but there are some things that are very expensive to do properly, like pave. I visited Linda Penwarden in toronto and was very impressed with her work, so there is someone you can check out. Also, you could consider contacting Pearlman''s, since they are only about a 4 hour drive and have an amazing selection and top notch service. It may be worth the drive to see their store and choose a setting if you don''t find anything you love locally. I would recommend that you try to find a setting that is stock, cimply because I have read too many stories about people finding the custom route to be unsatisfactory. But it works well for some, so maybe you will find someone who you can really trust!

Can''t wait to see your options!

 

[October2008bride]

Hi fellow Torontonian! Sounds pretty exciting!

I think that if you are really hunting for a cushion, you should go with Mark at ERD. He is well known to be the cusion expert, and he is a nice guy too! And to make things easier, I''d have him do the setting too. I have searched all over Toronto too and I don''t think you will find someone as qualified and well priced as Mark. And to save shipping costs, I would have it shipped to Buffalo and go pick it up there. I''m not advocating smuggling it across the border (that is your decision) but shipping from NYC to Toronto can be expensive and take a long time if it gets held up at the border.

If you are really wanting to have a Toronto designer do the setting, I would second the recommendation of Linda Penwarden, as one of my BMs has an ering and weddingband made by her and it is very elegant and beautiful.

Hope that helps!

 

[swayed]

Ahhh... I had a repy post that I just deleted while trying to attach a photo...sigh. Perhaps should have read those instructions first!

Anyway, as I had written pre-deletion, thanks very much for all the recommendations and great advice. I''m giving myself to Tuesday to see if I can work out the setting issues, then I will likely contact ERD Tuesday...

I spoke to Martin today, he suggested some other options, including sending the stone to Scott Kay directly to set (but this will add a 10% tax to the total cost, and I had some modifications I would prefer to see in the finished product) and he also suggested another designer he works with. He thought the quote for the band was surprisingly high as well. I have an appointment to see this second person tomorrow for a quote and to see his work. If I''m not happy, I''ll head over to Linda Penwarden''s store in the afternoon.

I also heard back from the other vendor,Aziz, he e-mailed the EGL certificate, but I''m kind of disappointed with it. I posted the stats in a new thread.

DD, thanks for the Pearlman''s tip, I checked out all 50+ pages of Scott Kay bands, and unfotunately they don''t carry that style...to think, only two short weeks ago, I really thought I didn''t care what the ring looked like as long as it was simple! Here''s a pic from Captainobvious so you can see what it looks like (with a radiant? cut diamond). Isn''t it lovely?!

 

[arjunajane]

Pearlams will be able to get in any style from Scott Kay, even if its not showing on their site.
Just shoot them an email with the photo or style name/nbr.

 

[anne_h]

Allo!

I am a fellow Canuk, from Montreal.

I got my cushion e-ring almost 3 years ago now.

Personally, based on my own research and perceptions, I am convinced the selection and prices for stones pretty much sucks in Canada. The large US vendors (especially in NYC) just have much better access to a much larger range. Plus, their expertise is higher (IMO).

In the end, I went to Mark T at Engagement Rings Direct, based on recommendations on this forum. We worked by email and phone, and a I chose a stone based on specs and photos only. I was very happy with my finished ring. I had it appraised locally and the gemmologist was shocked at a. the fact that I bought online at all and b. the total price for the completed ring. I knew I was on to something!

Anyways, now these several years later, I consider myself even more hardcore-addicted to gems and jewelry. Mark has a great trade-up policy, which I plan to use. But this time, I don''t imagine I will be comfortable to work only remotely, I will probably go down to NYC to make a final stone selection.

Oh, like a few others, I vote you go with a classic, plain, inexpensive setting if budget is an issue. I too am dubious of a $500 custom job. I am sure there are a few decent bench people in the retail storefront market, but in my admittedly skeptical opinion, they are few and far between.

Good luck!

Anne

PS - My fiance picked up my ring in NYC and drove it over the border to save us duty and taxes. (I know not everyone is okay with that.)

 

[swayed]

Hi all,
thanks for your comments. After speaking to the other designer on Saturday, I''ve decided to go with the diamond from USA Cert. Steve, the designer, showed me photos of his work, including really intricate engraving, and my jaw dropped. His work is simply stunning, just gorgeous. And he quoted me the same as the first two quotes.

Despite paying for the diamond upfront, Martin has said he is fully confident that is gorgeous, so if I''m not happy with it, I will not be forced to buy it. Also, not sure if this is relevant, but I did another PS search, and there are no cushion cuts under .7ct that meet my specs anyway...

Thanks for all your advice, you guys are awesome! if I wasn''t so impressed with Steve and Martin, my next step would definitely be to call ERD.

Can''t wait to see the finished product!

 

[customcushion]

Great! Let us know how it turns out, and come back with pictures!