Help identitfy inclusions in my OEC

[Dreamer_D]

I got an appraisal done by a local person for insurance purposes only. He came back with H color and SI2 clarity. I was very surprised by the latter given that I could not locate anything with my loupe. So I looked again at some super macro photos I took.

There is obviously *something* at the 3 o'clock prong. And perhaps some little specs on the crown facets. But the mark by the prong does not look like any type of inclusion I am familiar with. Anyone care to comment?

 

[Dreamer_D]

Closer.

I find it odd that they are right under the prongs (though of course this could be purposeful), and they seem to be on the surface?

 

[Laila619]

My SI2 is like that, I can't see anything with a loupe!

Yours almost looks like the 'inclusions' are dirt/stains on the exterior of the stone, and not actually true inclusions. Hmmm.

 

[Dreamer_D]

My SI2 is like that, I can't see anything with a loupe!

Yours almost looks like the 'inclusions' are dirt/stains on the exterior of the stone, and not actually true inclusions. Hmmm.

YES! That is what I was thinking. Perhaps from the setting process?

I don't really care, if I ever reset I'll get a better assessment. I'm just curious!

 

[Laila619]

My SI2 is like that, I can't see anything with a loupe!

Yours almost looks like the 'inclusions' are dirt/stains on the exterior of the stone, and not actually true inclusions. Hmmm.

YES! That is what I was thinking. Perhaps from the setting process?

Yep, probably, or it just needs an extra super duper thorough cleaning. But they don't look like true inclusions to me. I wonder what some of the experts will say.

 

[Dreamer_D]

BUMP

 

[kenny]

Nice close up pics.
What camera/lens are you using?

Now that you know what to look for I'd loupe it again.
Move the diamond in and out of focus till you are focusing on the surface.
Then move the diamond a little closer to the loupe so you are focusing just under the diamond's surface . . . did the inclusions get more or less in focus?

If they were only in focus on the surface then they may not be inclusions, bur be stubborn gunk on the surface.
Perhaps another remote possibility is they are naturals on the surface.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Kenny it is a Sony Cybershot, about 6 years old! Point and shoot. Works well! And thanks!

I will try what you say.

In real life, I cannot see these marks with my naked eye at all and even have trouble locating them with a loupe, but I will try!

It just seems odd that the two main/larger inclusions are right under two of the prongs...

 

[HopeDream]

Hi Dreamer,

I'sn it common practice to prong over inclusions if you can? I bet the prong placement is on purpose. Those inclusions definitely look "gunky". I wonder if it's a type of mineral staining through a feather which then healed (Could that happen?) Gorgeous facet pattern!

 

[Dreamer_D]

I am curious enough that I will get another appraisal done from a local guy who does them with you present so I can ask him, I think.

Thanks Hope, it is a lovely facet pattern in this stone!

ETA: And yes, prongs over inclusions are of course common to hide them. I just think it is unusual for two inclusions to happen to fall in place for two of six prongs to cover them!

 

[CharmyPoo]

It really looks like glue or something that has dried up and caked on the diamond. Looks like it is just under the girdle???

 

[MeganR]

Take this with a large scoop of salt as I haven't actually seen your diamond, but the mark at the 3 o'clock position looks like dirt to me. What I would do is take a pointer probe, looks like a very small ice pick, and scratch at it. If it scratches away, voila, it's dirt! Also, as Kenny suggested take your loupe and move the diamond back and forth in front of it. If the facet edges are in focus and so is the splotch then it is most likely on the surface. If when the splotch is in focus, the facet edges are not, then it is interior to the stone.

If all else fails, take it back to your appraiser and ask him to point out the clarity characteristics and let you take a peek at them under the microscope. HTH!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Thanks everyone! So helpful!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Another important point- any grade issued when the stone is set is way approximate.

I've set many I1 stones that seemingly became VS stones due to the setting obscuring the imperfections.
Then, it's also possible that things look like imperfections that are actually not- as Megan suggested- Hi Megan

By all means a sit down showing you the specifics of why the grade was issued might be in order......

 

[Dreamer_D]

Scrubbed 'er good with a baby toothbrush and dish soap. The incredible disappearing inclusion...

 

[Dreamer_D]

So I am peeved by this because I would hope an "appraiser" could tell an inclusion from dirt. I did not pay much for this appraisal and did not meet the appraiser in person. I was impressed with his appraisal of my Aurora band, it was very detailed, but those diamonds had lab reports. In this case, with a stone with no lab report, I am less than impressed. I wil try to call him, but might also just write this off and find someone better.

I also think that this is a lesson to consumers. The appraiser said SI2 clarity based, I believe, on these dirt splotches If I had not been saavy, then I would have accepted this and in the case of a loss would have been stuck looking for an SI2 as clean as this "Si2". Glad I am so curious and have PS. I am of the opinion this stone is VS or better, but I suppose unmounting it is the only way to know.

 

[CharmyPoo]

I suggest going back and making him redo the appraisal. No point paying for another one.

 

[Bella_mezzo]

ditto!

 

[Laila619]

I was pretty sure those weren't inclusions! I'm surprised at the appraiser. It seems like, apart from our much loved PS appraisers and jewelers, it's difficult to find someone reliable.

 

[ruby59]

An appraiser mistaking dirt for an inclusion should definitely give you a free reappraisal.

Just curious, but what kind of inclusion did he classify the as?

 

[Gypsy]

I always have my stones unset when I get an appraisal, Dreamer if you have it unset then reset you'll get the most peace of mind.

 

[Dreamer_D]

An appraiser mistaking dirt for an inclusion should definitely give you a free reappraisal.

Just curious, but what kind of inclusion did he classify the as?

He didn't, it was not that detailed. I could try to call and talk to him but...

I paid $35 for the appraisal, mostly because I was curious about what someone thought of the color and clarity and in case I wanted to insure it. And like I said, I was impressed with his appraisal of my ring that had lab reports accompanying it. He is also the senior jewelery appraiser for the Canadian Antiques Roadshow -- HA!

Anyways, I could ask for a refund or re-appraisal but I don't think they would bite and it is not worth my hassel. I got enough amusement out of this to justify the $35 Yes, my life is THAT boring right now! haha

 

[Dreamer_D]

I always have my stones unset when I get an appraisal, Dreamer if you have it unset then reset you'll get the most peace of mind.

I will in future. I thought of that but they were going to charge a hefty fee for the unsetting/resetting and if I was doing that, I wanted an appraisal from someone with a sarin.

 

[Gypsy]

I don't know what's it's cost me-- broken out-- every time. I just ask for an appraisal cost including unsetting and resetting. Usually the unsetting is free or cheap. The resetting costs money. With my asscher I had it unset by Neil and then sent reset to the Ocean. And the second time I had it sent to Neil already set by Steven, but it was for an appraisal update not a full re-appraisal. My RHR OEC and was unset already. And the other OEC's I bought I paid for the setting and resetting as part of the appraisal. But those appraisals have been from jewelers who have benches. I am very lucky that I have a jeweler with a good appraiser on site. Not something we recommend because they are very hard to find. But Erik at JE is very good and manages to be independent.

I did get one of the OEC's unset by a completely biased against old cuts jeweler. I paid 20 bucks for that and for him to weigh the diamond. He was very disparaging about OEC's and kept telling me to recut it. RB's are easier to have appraised (like your Aurora), OEC's are much harder because very few jewelers appreciate them and IMO you need to understand their intrinsic value as antiques to appraise them accurately.

 

[Rockdiamond]

It's important to keep in mind that resetting has risks.
Removing a prong set stone takes a moment- no big deal for an experienced hand.
Resetting is another matter entirely.
In some cases, considerable work is required to get it perfect. In some cases more than the first time they set it.
Removing a stone from a bezel destroys the bezel.
Older pieces have many additional considerations, when it comes to removing and re-setting the stone- unless you're going to scrap the setting anyway.

Point is- I'd advise careful consideration before removing a stone for the purposes of appraisal.

 

[Gypsy]

It's important to keep in mind that resetting has risks.
Removing a prong set stone takes a moment- no big deal for an experienced hand.
Resetting is another matter entirely.
In some cases, considerable work is required to get it perfect. In some cases more than the first time they set it.
Removing a stone from a bezel destroys the bezel.
Older pieces have many additional considerations, when it comes to removing and re-setting the stone- unless you're going to scrap the setting anyway.

Point is- I'd advise careful consideration before removing a stone for the purposes of appraisal.

Very good point! I was usually scraping the settings and none were bezels. And all the people that re-set them took their time and were very skilled. I have no idea if an independent appraiser would have the skill. You may ask them to unset it IF IT IS SAFE and then have a skilled bench re-set it later. And that might cost you quite a bit of money.

Good post by RD.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Dreamer, since someday you may reset the diamond into a new setting, I honestly would just wait until that time to get an appraisal with the stone unset. I am amazed that the appraiser did not recognize dirt on the diamond, though!

 

[Gypsy]

You know I just remembered that an appraiser once told me that the first thing they do when they get a piece is check it to make sure it will survive a good cleaning-- and then clean it very well.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I think this was fossilized dirt This diamond had been scrubbed by moi, steamed multiple times, put in an ultrasonic, and it was still there. I could only see it because I knew where to look, and scrubbed only that spot with my toothbrush. So I guess I can see how they could miss it. That said, I am supremely unimpressed. I also read on the appraisal information that replacement value of old cut stones was determined by what the stone would fetch if recut into a modern RB

DS I think you might be right about just waiting. But what to do anout insurance? I dont want insurance if the appraisal is wrong and inflated (like this one). I could get another one done I guess... I do not want this guy to re-do it, even for free, because it took too long and the results were crap.

 

[Gypsy]

I think this was fossilized dirt This diamond had been scrubbed by moi, steamed multiple times, put in an ultrasonic, and it was still there. I could only see it because I knew where to look, and scrubbed only that spot with my toothbrush. So I guess I can see how they could miss it. That said, I am supremely unimpressed. I also read on the appraisal information that replacement value of old cut stones was determined by what the stone would fetch if recut into a modern RB

DS I think you might be right about just waiting. But what to do anout insurance? I dont want insurance if the appraisal is wrong and inflated (like this one). I could get another one done I guess... I do not want this guy to re-do it, even for free, because it took too long and the results were crap.

I COULD be wrong. But you can CHOOSE the insure for less than the appraised cost. You might want to call and just say... hey look, I bought this, I have the appraisal which shows that I DO own it, but I only want to insure it for 4K or whatever. But since your clarity rating is so far off... I'd just ask for your money back and go somewhere else. Aren't you going to be in the States soon-ish? Can you have it re-appraised then? Especially if you go to that antique jewelry store we talked about?

And the cost of old cuts is no longer based on that according to RAP.