Help for a beginner

[baffled]

I have read a ton of info on the forums, so hopefully I can make my questions somewhat intelligent. I am in the market for a stone, I have settled on something in the 1.8 - 2.0 range, G-H, VS1-VS2, VG-Exc GIA cert. I realize that I am playing roughly in the $18K-$25K range depending on the specs of the particular stone I settle on.

I will likely purchase at a B&M as I just do not feel confident enough given my lack of knowledge to do it online. I have ready plenty of information about the gaudy mark-ups at the retail locations. So as a fairly skilled business man, I have never felt more unprepared for a negotiation as I am this one. No matter how much I read, I feel I remain at a horrible disadvantage and dont know how to verify that I am getting a "good price". How much can I expect a retailer to come down? What kind of margin are they looking for? Is the "Rap" a good benchmark or not (I read conflicting data)? At least when I negotiate the price of a car I know what the dealership paid. Is there a rule of thumb for mark-up over cost for a retail jewelry store? For example they usually mark-up 40% of their cost to get to the list price, so if you get them down 20% you have done well?

In short, how can I protect myself when I''m negotiating when I feel like no matter much I prepare myself, Im still at a gross disadvantage? I will be buying this diamond once, they sell them every day.

 

[Skippy123]

Well, many of us bought online (I did and couldn''t be happier), we can help you look online if you like

If not you can post information found off the cert here and we can help advise you or you can use this tool to weed out stones. Stones scoring from between 0-2 on the HCA are prefered http://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp

Also, you could use this tool to compare prices. http://www.pricescope.com/diamond-prices.aspx

 

[JoeNewbie11]

I would recommend buying from one of the respected Pricescope Vendors here (Whiteflash, GOG, JamesAllen, etc.). You know you won''t be paying the B&M markup plus you won''t be paying tax. This is a huge savings. And you''ll be given more information about the performance of the diamond that a B&M would typically give you.

You can also give your specs to the PS community and they''ll be happy to find you a diamond from one of these vendors and explain to you why it is a good stone.

If that''s not enough, there are good return policies from these vendors if you get the stone and don''t like it.

It''s up to you though....as the expert shoppers here instead of relying on the subjective advice of a B&M salesperson.

 

[honey22]

I would suggest that the less knowledge you have about diamonds, the harder it is to purchase from a B&M store. Some of them tell horrible stories to get you to purchase their stones, and to be frank, you can get a better cut stone for a much better price online.

I would suggest you check out Whiteflash''s line of ACAs and GOGs H&A stones, they are top quality cut stones and will be stunning!!

www.whiteflash.com

www.goodoldgold.com

You can always post a budget and we can suggest some killer stones for you if you prefer?!

 

[mel047]

I also would recommend purchasing from one of the PS vendors.

We just purchased my ering from Mark at ERD. I knew next to nothing prior to find pricescope. I still wouldn''t claim to know a lot, but felt comfortable enough purchasing online. We had originally planned on going with a B&M, but then realized how much of a difference there was between price and quality. Using an online vendor will get you a much better stone for a better price; it''s amazing the difference.

Plus, the PS members are great for helping out.

Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/23/2008 12:10:29 AM
Author: mel047
I also would recommend purchasing from one of the PS vendors.

We just purchased my ering from Mark at ERD. I knew next to nothing prior to find pricescope. I still wouldn''t claim to know a lot, but felt comfortable enough purchasing online. We had originally planned on going with a B&M, but then realized how much of a difference there was between price and quality. Using an online vendor will get you a much better stone for a better price; it''s amazing the difference.

Plus, the PS members are great for helping out.

Hope this helps and good luck!

Welcome Baffled!

We would be delighted to help you through the process whichever way you choose to purchase your diamond - I wholeheartedly recommend buying online, but if you do prefer the B&M route, there is still much we can do to assist you!

 

[AndyMN]

Date: 7/22/2008 5:37:14 PM
Author:baffled
I have read a ton of info on the forums, so hopefully I can make my questions somewhat intelligent. I am in the market for a stone, I have settled on something in the 1.8 - 2.0 range, G-H, VS1-VS2, VG-Exc GIA cert. I realize that I am playing roughly in the $18K-$25K range depending on the specs of the particular stone I settle on.

I will likely purchase at a B&M as I just do not feel confident enough given my lack of knowledge to do it online. I have ready plenty of information about the gaudy mark-ups at the retail locations. So as a fairly skilled business man, I have never felt more unprepared for a negotiation as I am this one. No matter how much I read, I feel I remain at a horrible disadvantage and dont know how to verify that I am getting a ''good price''. How much can I expect a retailer to come down? What kind of margin are they looking for? Is the ''Rap'' a good benchmark or not (I read conflicting data)? At least when I negotiate the price of a car I know what the dealership paid. Is there a rule of thumb for mark-up over cost for a retail jewelry store? For example they usually mark-up 40% of their cost to get to the list price, so if you get them down 20% you have done well?

In short, how can I protect myself when I''m negotiating when I feel like no matter much I prepare myself, Im still at a gross disadvantage? I will be buying this diamond once, they sell them every day.

I work for a B&M so I know how "dangerous" it can be in some quarters, but I think it''s no more "dangerous" than the scams which exist anywhere (there are some not-so-good online sellers as I am sure you know). Some suggestions are to do your homework (sounds like you are) talk to your friends who have high standards and have purchased from a B&M recently, and use common sense and get a good feeling about the experience as a whole. If it doesn''t feel right, don''t do it. This is also a great place to bounce ideas and options. I think, if all shoppers had a resource like Pricescope, that the number of "ripoff places" would decline pretty fast.

Depending on where you shop the markups are not so gaudy for top makes from top labs. The problem is getting access to those top makes. The number of poor, average or semi-decent cut stones in normal stores overwhelms the number of true top makes. You can take your PS-gained knowledge about cut and cut grading into B&M stores and insist on finding diamonds of comparable cut quality. Yes, there may be a small premium for buying live for a number of reasons. Many people like having a live person in front of them (hopefully educated correctly) to interact with in real-time with the goods right there, as well as the convenience of having a local jeweler for routine cleaning, maintenance, and a convenient source for "impulse-gifts" who you have created a relationship with and appreciates you in a personal way. If you shop wisely you can have a terrific experience, get great value and perhaps gain a valuable friend (hey who doesn''t like a friend in the jewelry biz?)

 

[WinkHPD]

Andy has a lot of excxellent points in his post. You can cruise for prices and information about cutting here, the members are extremely helpful and take this knowledge with you when shopping.

When the good retailer sees that you are extrememly prepared to deal with him in a friendly yet informed manner you might be surprised at how close to internet pricing you can get for a great stone and also reap all of the benefits that Andy mentioned in his post about having a friendly local jeweler to deal with.

I have actually been in Andy''s store, the owner is a longtime friend of mine, and I can tell you that not only is he competitive in price, but his client''s love him and the service that they provide. I doubt that many of them would leave him over a few percent in price, although I don''t think that they are actually paying a premium to shop with him.

When I was there I met coaches and players current and past, from several of the local franchises. (Baseball, basketball and football), it was like being in a sports celebrity guest show.) Everyone who came in was treated equally as well as the "Big Kahunas" and the store had the constant buzz of people who enjoyed one another conversing and hugs were frequent when people came in or left.

The place had the feel of a constant happy coctail party. Hard to generate that on the net.

Wink

 

[swingirl]

Are any of the PS vendors close enough to you where you could pay them a visit? If you are spending $20K you could spend a few hundred dollars more to travel to one.

 

[baffled]

Thanks for the guidance folks, very helpful.

Here''s an example. I went today and looked at a bunch of stones. The 2 that were most interesting to me were:

1.90, I, SI1, GIA, Ex, Ex and he priced me at $15,150...the other was
2.22, H, VS2, EGL, Ideal for $21,275

He showed me the 1.9 because he thought it was such a great stone, and I have to tell you, I was shocked by how few inclusions it had. It was a very lively stone, but I was really confused by the GIA cert, becuase it seemed harsh. It was a beautiful stone compared to others I looked at, yet the ratings were so low. He said they re-submitted it for the same reason but got the same thing back. He said he didnt understand the cert either but thought it was the nicest stone he had. My opinion was the same, it was one of the nicer ones I saw and had few inclusions that I could detect, but then again, what do I know? Too good to be true? Will my girlfriend walk into the right light and it will look horrible, will it be yellow after a week?

The 2.22 was beautiful as well, but I was worried about the EGL cert.

AND, I could find comporable 1.9''s online for 14 and comporable 2.22s for way less than the 21.

So what now? I liked the stones, Im worried about the certs and I can find cheaper versions online but I do like being able to see them first? Still baffled

 

[swingirl]

Many people here on PS have bought from an online vendor because most have great sales support and trained people who can look a the stone and describe exactly what it looks like. WF, GOG and JA have good reputations as far as being honest about where the inclusions are, how good the cut it, pros and cons, etc.

You haven''t mentioned the cut on the one''s you are looking at. I would guess without the angles from the GIA or EGL certs it''d be hard to access the cut quality buy looking at it. They may be beautiful cuts but usually we like more information. One thing you don''t get from a B&M are magnified photos. Most of us like magnified photos to look at the pattern, inclusions, facets, etc.

So whether or not you''ll find something cheaper it''s hard to say because it depends on the quality you are looking for. And cut is king here. Cut is more important than color, clarity, or size.

In all cases once you buy a stone you get to look at it for a set time to decide whether you want to keep it. Many people get it appraised at this point, before it gets set.

 

[baffled]

Thanks swing, I will post the dimensions tomorrow.

Does it makes sense that GIA would cert it at SI1, yet identify very few inclusions on the cert (I couldnt find many in the loupe either)? I looked at VS1s and VS2s that had far more inclusions, I worried that GIA put an SI1 on the diamond because they thought one of the few inclusions affected the structural integrity of the diamond?

 

[phoenixgirl]

All I can say is that the prices I saw for GIA I SI1's in that size online were in the $12k or so range. Not unexpected if you consider that B&M prices WILL be more than online and you hadn't done any negotiating yet. But 2.2ish H VS2 EGL's were around $14k . . . not close at all to $21k. Please do not forget that GIA and EGL stones do not get priced the same way.

As far as the 1.9 SI1, from my understanding it is common, but not guaranteed, to have a quite eye-clean stone at that size. Many, many posters here do. That said, I bought a GIA 0.82 I SI1 sight unseen and I could see the dark inclusion if I tilted the stone a certain way, looked at it at 10x, or looked at it from the bottom.

But you've seen the stone. If you can't see the inclusions, great! The majority of inclusions in an SI1 grade are not black spots. Many people have 2 carat plus SI1 or SI2 stones and couldn't be happier.

BTW, the other VS1 and VS2s you saw with more inclusions than the SI1 . . . who graded them?

 

[baffled]

Thanks Phoenix, very helpful. Any idea why GIA would cert an SI1 with so few inclusions (I counted 3) while I looked at VS1s with far more? Is it the size or naked eye visibility? Maybe I''m missing something when I look at it? I fear the rest of the world will look at it once and say, whats that huge thing in your girlfriend''s ring

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/24/2008 5:11:48 PM
Author: baffled
Thanks for the guidance folks, very helpful.

Here''s an example. I went today and looked at a bunch of stones. The 2 that were most interesting to me were:

1.90, I, SI1, GIA, Ex, Ex and he priced me at $15,150...the other was
2.22, H, VS2, EGL, Ideal for $21,275

He showed me the 1.9 because he thought it was such a great stone, and I have to tell you, I was shocked by how few inclusions it had. It was a very lively stone, but I was really confused by the GIA cert, becuase it seemed harsh. It was a beautiful stone compared to others I looked at, yet the ratings were so low. He said they re-submitted it for the same reason but got the same thing back. He said he didnt understand the cert either but thought it was the nicest stone he had. My opinion was the same, it was one of the nicer ones I saw and had few inclusions that I could detect, but then again, what do I know? Too good to be true? Will my girlfriend walk into the right light and it will look horrible, will it be yellow after a week?

The 2.22 was beautiful as well, but I was worried about the EGL cert.

AND, I could find comporable 1.9''s online for 14 and comporable 2.22s for way less than the 21.

So what now? I liked the stones, Im worried about the certs and I can find cheaper versions online but I do like being able to see them first? Still baffled

Just got off a plane. Yesterday and this morning I was in a store out of my state and I had the fun and interesting experience at seeing some AGS graded stones next to some EGL graded stones of similar sizes. Yesterday I saw an AGS F and an EGL F side by side (One carat range). The EGL stone was at best an H and probably an I, it was readily visible even from the top that it was a lower color.

I also saw this morning an EGL F in a two carat size next to an AGS H. Funny thing was that they looked to be the same color.

Last week I had a dealer in my office with EGL Israel papers on the diamonds that he had, many of them were very nicely cut with fair Arrows patterns, I did not bother checking for Hearts. They were selling for 55% back of Rap. You can imagine the fun we will have when someone comes in the store to talk about how they can save 25 or 30% on an EGL certed stone compared to one of my Infinity diamonds. We will be happy to let them know how much more they should be getting off on a stone that the market discounts that heavily. I saw VS2''s with readily eye visible inclusions in them that no one on this board would accept as an SI2, let alone a VS2.

I am telling you, if these were drugs that were being so poorly described, someone would be going to jail over these reports!

Sorry, that is just my long winded way of saying you are right to be concerned about such a highly disregarded piece of paper describing your precious symbol of the love and integrity that you have the desire to buy for your lady.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/24/2008 9:54:33 PM
Author: baffled
Thanks Phoenix, very helpful. Any idea why GIA would cert an SI1 with so few inclusions (I counted 3) while I looked at VS1s with far more? Is it the size or naked eye visibility? Maybe I''m missing something when I look at it? I fear the rest of the world will look at it once and say, whats that huge thing in your girlfriend''s ring

Size and location determine the grade, the number may play into it, but if they are all tiny they do not count for much...

By the way, not very likely that they will be able to see an SI1 inclusion especially from the top, from where they will be seeing it after it is mounted.

Wink

 

[baffled]

Thanks Wink, you have sufficiently scared me off the EGL and I mean that in a good way.

So does an I color GIA worry you? I dont feel qualified enough to distinguish the difference as I couldn''t see it in the store (between and F and an I, although I asked if I was looking at a GIA color F which he confirmed, although I wasnt convinced given the way he answered), my concern is getting in certain types of light and it being obvious.

My other question Wink is I have this hang-up about buying on line and not seeing the diamond first, yet I doubt my own ability to judge nuances anyway, should I just pay the money for a GIA cert diamond that I know will be right online sight unseen?

 

[K9]

I''m not wink but I''m going to chime in only to say this...

What''s fabulous about diamonds is that there is a bit of science and math with the numbers - so it''s easier to buy them "sight unseen" if you know what to do with the numbers. There are many folks on this board that could pick you a winner based on the numbers alone. I recently purchased a Tahitian pearl for a pendant I am having made and let me tell you - those are something you HAVE to see before you buy it. I WISHED I had been buying a diamond - it would have been easier!

Just my 2 cents.

You have to do what''s right for you.

 

[dockman3]

Baffled-

Welcome to Pricescope! I wanted to share my experiences with you because I recently bought a diamond ring at a local B&M. (right before I found PS!) I had looked at all of my local B&M''s and finally found the one I thought was the best. I went in and spent a long time looking at settings. Once I had that picked, it was time to move on to the diamond. I told them my budget and that I wanted the best stone I could get. They brought out a few for me that I looked at and we went from there. I bought a stone and then I found PS. I posted all of my specs and then realized that I could have gotten a better stone. I took it back and asked them to bring some AGS000 stones to compare to like quality GIA Ex stones. They brought out 5 stones, 3 AGS and 2 GIA. They ranged in color from D to G and VS2-SI2, all roughly the same ct weight. I looked at each one of those stones side by side, away from the fancy lights in the main store, and I was able to eliminate them one by one. I had a loupe sitting next to me so I could look at them all. I realized that I was actually pretty sensitive to color and I could tell, face up, the difference between the G and D, so I got rid of the G''s. Then, having the AGS000 next to a GIA Ex, I liked the GIA better and ended up buying it. The jeweler had gone online and gotten prices from Bluenile.com for comparable stones and while I did pay more, he told me exactly how much more and I was able to bring him down a little bit. Overall, I had a great experience and now I do have a great local jeweler to go to.

My advice to you, having just been through this, is that you can get any kind of diamond you ask for, as long as you know what to ask for. You just have to be prepared. I told them I wanted to see AGS000 or GIA Ex cut, G or under color, minimum of SI2, and the biggest they could for my budget. I''m sure if you gave them preferred pav/crown angle combos, they would search for those too. I found being able to see the diamonds in person invaluable because I had no idea what the different colors or clarities really looked like. IMO, nothing beats comparing stones side by side in real life, no matter how much data you have online. My diamond is not what some here would consider to be an ideal cut, but when I saw it next to ones that were ideal cuts, I thought it out performed them. Its a very personal choice, and I just wanted to let you know that other people here have bought from local jewelers with very positive experiences. Good luck with you search, and bring us specs on the diamonds and we''ll tell you what we think, but remember that you are the final judge because you are seeing them with your own eyes!

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/25/2008 9:15:33 AM
Author: baffled
Thanks Wink, you have sufficiently scared me off the EGL and I mean that in a good way.

So does an I color GIA worry you? I dont feel qualified enough to distinguish the difference as I couldn''t see it in the store (between and F and an I, although I asked if I was looking at a GIA color F which he confirmed, although I wasnt convinced given the way he answered), my concern is getting in certain types of light and it being obvious.

My other question Wink is I have this hang-up about buying on line and not seeing the diamond first, yet I doubt my own ability to judge nuances anyway, should I just pay the money for a GIA cert diamond that I know will be right online sight unseen?

I color does not worry me at all. Color is not good or bad, it just is. Some people like it, some do not. Personal choice. Many people on this board have bought much lower colors and love them very much. An I is not going to be readily visible to most people in any lighting, although there are a few very color sensitive people who will see colors that you may not.

I can empathise with your desire to buy locally, and your concern that you might not be getting the best stone on line, and I can also assure you that the vendors here take your concerns very seriously. Most have excellent view and return policies so that you are not stuck with something if you do not like it when you see it.

As to the cert, I am a strong proponent of the AGS Diamond Quality Document Over GIA''s Diamond Grading report since I like the AGS cut quality analysis better. Both however will be well graded and should leave you comfortable with getting the color and clarity that you are paying for.

Wink

P.S. Thanks for being scared off of EGL in a good way, it will save you MUCH concern about whether or not your EGL paper was one of the few "good" ones.