Help finding 3-4 carat oval

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

OMG that's a hard one. The JA stone is larger and beautiful. But that ED stone is so bright. I have no preference I think both are strong choices. Pick the one you like the best.

Hi Gypsy and all,
I would like to understand how you can make judgements about how bright a stone is from 360 degree videos with the stone resting on its pavilion?

 

[Gypsy]

OMG that's a hard one. The JA stone is larger and beautiful. But that ED stone is so bright. I have no preference I think both are strong choices. Pick the one you like the best.

Hi Gypsy and all,
I would like to understand how you can make judgements about how bright a stone is from 360 degree videos with the stone resting on its pavilion?

Experience with JA's photo set up. I've seen hundreds of stones by them (and many of them ovals) and 100's of corresponding ASETs. I also, with Andrey's permission, had JA send me an oval and cushion, based solely on the videos, to evaluate for a period in person and then ASET using my own personal ASET (thank you for that Gary) and then had JA send me their ASET to compare.

So, while it is not ideal, I feel fairly comfortable saying that I am doing the best I can with the tools I have Gary.

I find step cuts to be the hardest to judge from their photo set up. And would not buy one without an ASET from them. Ovals are not easy at all. But that is nice enough and safe enough, and the buyer is looking for comparisons that I feel okay recommending it. Would I prefer an ASET before purchase? Yes of course. But we can't always get what we want and 3 carat ovals don't grow on trees and this poster has already tried GOG twice. So, what would you suggest I do differently?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

OMG that's a hard one. The JA stone is larger and beautiful. But that ED stone is so bright. I have no preference I think both are strong choices. Pick the one you like the best.

Hi Gypsy and all,
I would like to understand how you can make judgements about how bright a stone is from 360 degree videos with the stone resting on its pavilion?

Experience with JA's photo set up. I've seen hundreds of stones by them (and many of them ovals) and 100's of corresponding ASETs. I also, with Andrey's permission, had JA send me an oval and cushion, based solely on the videos, to evaluate for a period in person and then ASET using my own personal ASET (thank you for that Gary) and then had JA send me their ASET to compare.

So, while it is not ideal, I feel fairly comfortable saying that I am doing the best I can with the tools I have Gary.

I find step cuts to be the hardest to judge from their photo set up. And would not buy one without an ASET from them. Ovals are not easy at all. But that is nice enough and safe enough, and the buyer is looking for comparisons that I feel okay recommending it. Would I prefer an ASET before purchase? Yes of course. But we can't always get what we want and 3 carat ovals don't grow on trees and this poster has already tried GOG twice. So, what would you suggest I do differently?

Thanks for the detailed answer Gypsy. I am genuinely interested.

Personally I have never tried to judge a diamonds cut from either resting on pavilion or rotating vertically between top and bottom pins because there is light entering from behind the stone. I personally only use such video to locate inclusions and decide if they are surface reaching and hence an increased breakage risk, or get an idea if the inclusion can be seen when set in a ring from the side view (as is the case with many princess cuts). For inclusions I prefer the vertical pin rotation approach.

Can you share what you look for to enable cut quality / beauty / sparkle or whatever other factors you see as a benefit please?

PS it might be the basis of some tutorial or article?

 

[Gypsy]

Hehehe.

I'm not likely to write an article I don't have the skills. You may want to ask Karl. I learned it from him largely. And I don't explain things nearly as well as he does.

I could try to explain it. It wouldn't be very technical. I will have to think about it.

It's easiest to judge, for me, with cushions with strong contrast zones.

This one is a good example:
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/1.20-carat-f-color-vvs2-clarity-sku-1017465
Start with watching the facets under the table. Then switch to watching the crown facets.

This is the ASET (hold off on looking at this)
http://static8.segoma.com/v.php?type=jpg&name=aset.jpg&id=KKE6HSILYY

Look at the video. Guess what you think the ASET will look like (where there will be leakage, etc.). And then compare it to the actual ASET. Then go back and look at the video and match it up to the ASET.

That's pretty much what I did over time. I learned to predict with a decent amount of accuracy how a stone would perform from comparing videos to ASETs.

Also the video will tell you crown height (you can gauge it).

That's a starting point at least. I'll see if I can post more later after I figure out how to explain it.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

OK, you gain information from the black contribution from the camera lens Gypsy. I do that with a supplier who uses video's made with ViBox (I contributed to the lighting scheme) and compare them to the still photo's and I can estimate the bow tie effect very accurately.
Gotcha there. and agree.

Now the leakage - I could not see any in comparison to the ASET.
Perhaps you could find a bad cut example and show me how you do that?

 

[Gypsy]

Thanks! It's nice to know what I do! LOL! I have no idea. I just do it. Hey, at least it works.

Okay. Let's try the poorly performing cushions (this example is limited to cushions, you have to adapt what you do for each shape, though ovals, pears and marquise are most similar).

There are two types of "major" issues. Ones with too much black. Ones with too much grey. Or some combination of the two. We'll start with too much grey.

So this puppy is dead. http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.70-carat-j-color-vs1-clarity-sku-993599

It's all grey "Mush" under the table. A big blurry grey mess. The facets aren't reflecting white or black really. And there is no definition in the facets. The crown facets are slightly better. But other than a flew flecks of green and blue on the ASET, on a white background, this one is going to ASET just white/blank. It's a terrible blob of a stone.

This stone is similar. Although the crown facets will ASET out with more color as they are better performing than that one. The table is dead (ignoring the inclusion): http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.90-carat-k-color-si1-clarity-sku-819955

Now, too much black.
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.71-carat-j-color-vvs2-clarity-sku-932615 So this stone also has strong contrast zones. But they facets are too large and the pattern of them lighting up is just disjointed and optically distracting instead of pleasing. Sure you can see that in the still. But when you see the video you really get a mess of what a distracting hot mess that 'pattern' is. The facets don't turn off and on 'properly'. They turn on in blocks right next to each other. So half the table will go 'off' at the same time. That's what I mean by 'too much black', with a cushion. Still and all the ASET will show lots of greens, some red, and either those big facets will probably be blue (though they could be red). It's a better choice than the 'too much grey' problem. The facets at least are crisp, not mushy. It also does have a some leaky facets at the table. But even a well cut stone could have that much, so it's not the main problem.


Hot mess combo of too much black and too much gray: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.70-carat-e-color-si2-clarity-sku-1102384 The facets under the table are either gray (gray can also show up as 'clear' not white or flashing, just clear) and indistinct or strong black. Yuck.

Table is mushy (too much gray) and while the crown facets are firing and show contrast too much at one time: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.90-carat-k-color-si2-clarity-sku-924839


Those are pretty easy examples though. Some are, obviously, more complicated.

Like this one: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.73-carat-j-color-si1-clarity-sku-674394 This one is ALMOST a nice stone. It could have been one. But it isn't really. Why? Let's start with the crown facets. Though they aren't mushy at all, and they are distinct, they aren't sharp enough and reflecting enough. Those crown facets are going to be largely green. And you can see how that will make that stone look small. Under the table you've got decent contrast and you are getting brighter facets than the crown so you will see red. But the pattern isn't right. The facets fire off and on in a very chaotic way. It's a much more decent stone than any of the ones above. But it's just got flaws that will detract and make it look small.

Another "almost" nice stone: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.84-carat-k-color-vvs1-clarity-sku-689163 This one's black is too concentrated on the crown and right at the outside of the table. The facets turn off and on 'together' instead of at different times. SO the stone goes all dark (except for the big X) and then all bright. And the big X in the middle is not reflecting right and is too 'clear' it's not picking up light OR dark. It will likely be blue and it's too big to be blue.

This one just has a bowtie:http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.72-carat-j-color-si2-clarity-sku-1028592 Which is really just too bad.

 

[Gypsy]

Other examples. More "B/B-" performing cushions.

This one is going to be more green than red, especially at crown. http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/1.03-carat-j-color-vs2-clarity-sku-889171 And obviously has that strong bowtie under the table.

This one is also going to be mostly green, with some white (on a white background): http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.70-carat-k-color-i1-clarity-sku-966426 Those sharp black facets will likely be blue.

Antique style stone ruined by table mush: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.80-carat-j-color-si1-clarity-sku-1028585 Other than that it's a lovely stone.

This one is interesting. http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.70-carat-j-color-vvs2-clarity-sku-947068 Six main cushion with faceting that is like a hearts and arrows stone. But except for those 'arrows' under the table, it's all mush. And the crown facets aren't that bright and contrasty, though it does have some. This one will likely be mostly green on the crown with some reds. Under the table, I'm not 100% sure how it will perform on the ASET. If I had to guess I'd say the 'mushy' areas would be white and the 'arrows' would be green with maybe a tiny bit of red.


This is what you want to see for an "A" ASET:
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/1.00-carat-j-color-vvs1-clarity-sku-1052426
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.70-carat-i-color-vs2-clarity-sku-876889
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/1.01-carat-j-color-vvs2-clarity-sku-748995
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.90-carat-j-color-vs2-clarity-sku-964783

 

[Gypsy]

I meant 8 main, on that "6 main" stone I posted.

 

[aftereffects15]

Wow this is fascinating, thank you for writing that up Gypsy! Great material to study, how do cushions compare with rounds for light return?

The first JA one came and it is very pretty but not quite perfect for me. The sparkles are very small and don't go very deep (hard to describe), it's almost more like a shimmer. I really liked how evenly distributed it is and there's no bow tie which is really cool, definitely a gorgeous stone and will make someone very happy. I ordered the ED one, I think it'll have bigger flashes, can't wait to see it!

 

[Gypsy]

That's the facet pattern. It's like a radiant. I know exactly what you mean. The good ones are exactly as you describe. But the flavor still has to be right for you. The ED stone has different faceting so I am hopeful it will appeal more to you. But if you are looking for really deep sparkles, I'm not sure an oval is going to be for you. At least, not a modern faceted stone. I think you might love an antique oval but those at 3 carats and higher color are not happening unless you get it custom cut.

Well cut cushions are the closest to rounds I think (except the ones with radiant-like faceting). A lot of the logic of looking at rounds applies to them. You can get a generic cushion that is bright and lively as a round. You can't really say that about any other cut. But that's because cushions are popular right now so there are so many well cut ones being cut. Supply and demand. Ovals and marquise and pears not so much. Though I'd seen more good marquise than either of the other two. Princesses have more splinter fire sparkle. And step cuts are just plain different.

 

[Gypsy]

If you did want to give cushions a try, aftereffects there's this beauty:

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/Cushion/GIA-Certified-4-22-Carat-H-Color-VS2-Clarity-Diamond-GVJX62 It's a fantastic stone.



And it would look amazing in this setting:
https://www.victorcanera.com/rings/engagement/emerald-cut-and-epaulette-trilogy

 

[aftereffects15]

Interesting idea! I remember Queradas mentioned cushions earlier too. I'm definitely not set on the oval/half moon design anymore.

Gorgeous setting, I discounted it earlier because I thought it would require a step cut center stone. Do you think a cushion would look good with the shields/Epaulette? Or are step cut side stones better with step cut centers? I was also considering going back to the very first idea of round center with pear side stones.

Are there any smaller cushions that you love? Fiance is worried that the ring will be too big/attention grabbing with side stones. Maybe I'm underestimating the bling factor. What do you think would be a good center stone for 4.5 ring size? I wish there were easy ways to order/3d print settings with cheap fake stones to try a bunch on and figure out the right proportions.

 

[Gypsy]

There are easy ways. Lots of small fingers on PS. And big rocks.

Off top of my head; KristyDarling. Had a large round witb pears. Has a HUGE 4 carat cushion halo AND a large OEC solitaire. Tiny fingers. Look her up. Go to SMTB and look at what other PSers have bought and worn.

I love the contrast of step cut sides on a brilliant stone. I'd totally go the epaulettes with A cushion.

Keep in mind ovals face up large for carat weight and cushions small. So that cushion is the same relative size as the three carat oval. So focus on Spread (dimensions) not weight when comparing stones of different shapes.

Also many of us use paper cut outs of stones and tape them to our fingers to figure stuff out.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thanks! It's nice to know what I do! LOL! I have no idea. I just do it. Hey, at least it works.

Okay. Let's try the poorly performing cushions (this example is limited to cushions, you have to adapt what you do for each shape, though ovals, pears and marquise are most similar).

There are two types of "major" issues. Ones with too much black. Ones with too much grey. Or some combination of the two. We'll start with too much grey.

So this puppy is dead. http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.70-carat-j-color-vs1-clarity-sku-993599 OK, agreed. A clarification - when the facets are mushy it means they are out of focus and this is generally a result of very long ray paths. The very long ray paths are desirable in turning fancy colored light rough into fancy intense. But in lower colored D to M stones they look yellower and ugly in thos 'mushy' sections.
In your other videos it will help you to identify the areas that are lower color because they will be the areas for that reason that have very long ray paths and as a consequence the lght return will be reduced. Re the overly dark stones - yes, that is what I said was about the only thing that is easy to use these videos for. So mushy can help, but if you have no mushy like some of your stones then the next thing to do would be ask for ASET images - which I guess is what you do Gypsy.
Some of the other near or better stones - there is still way to little info to make a purchasing decision on though. And for example the smaller spread oval discussed recently would not be a nice stone, but I am sure you agree based on the ASET and the dark zones in the still photo.

It's all grey "Mush" under the table. A big blurry grey mess. The facets aren't reflecting white or black really. And there is no definition in the facets. The crown facets are slightly better. But other than a flew flecks of green and blue on the ASET, on a white background, this one is going to ASET just white/blank. It's a terrible blob of a stone.

This stone is similar. Although the crown facets will ASET out with more color as they are better performing than that one. The table is dead (ignoring the inclusion): http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.90-carat-k-color-si1-clarity-sku-819955

Now, too much black.
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.71-carat-j-color-vvs2-clarity-sku-932615 So this stone also has strong contrast zones. But they facets are too large and the pattern of them lighting up is just disjointed and optically distracting instead of pleasing. Sure you can see that in the still. But when you see the video you really get a mess of what a distracting hot mess that 'pattern' is. The facets don't turn off and on 'properly'. They turn on in blocks right next to each other. So half the table will go 'off' at the same time. That's what I mean by 'too much black', with a cushion. Still and all the ASET will show lots of greens, some red, and either those big facets will probably be blue (though they could be red). It's a better choice than the 'too much grey' problem. The facets at least are crisp, not mushy. It also does have a some leaky facets at the table. But even a well cut stone could have that much, so it's not the main problem.


Hot mess combo of too much black and too much gray: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.70-carat-e-color-si2-clarity-sku-1102384 The facets under the table are either gray (gray can also show up as 'clear' not white or flashing, just clear) and indistinct or strong black. Yuck.

Table is mushy (too much gray) and while the crown facets are firing and show contrast too much at one time: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.90-carat-k-color-si2-clarity-sku-924839


Those are pretty easy examples though. Some are, obviously, more complicated.

Like this one: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.73-carat-j-color-si1-clarity-sku-674394 This one is ALMOST a nice stone. It could have been one. But it isn't really. Why? Let's start with the crown facets. Though they aren't mushy at all, and they are distinct, they aren't sharp enough and reflecting enough. Those crown facets are going to be largely green. And you can see how that will make that stone look small. Under the table you've got decent contrast and you are getting brighter facets than the crown so you will see red. But the pattern isn't right. The facets fire off and on in a very chaotic way. It's a much more decent stone than any of the ones above. But it's just got flaws that will detract and make it look small.

Another "almost" nice stone: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.84-carat-k-color-vvs1-clarity-sku-689163 This one's black is too concentrated on the crown and right at the outside of the table. The facets turn off and on 'together' instead of at different times. SO the stone goes all dark (except for the big X) and then all bright. And the big X in the middle is not reflecting right and is too 'clear' it's not picking up light OR dark. It will likely be blue and it's too big to be blue.

This one just has a bowtie:http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.72-carat-j-color-si2-clarity-sku-1028592 Which is really just too bad.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Other examples. More "B/B-" performing cushions.

This one is going to be more green than red, especially at crown. http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/1.03-carat-j-color-vs2-clarity-sku-889171 And obviously has that strong bowtie under the table.

This one is also going to be mostly green, with some white (on a white background): http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.70-carat-k-color-i1-clarity-sku-966426 Those sharp black facets will likely be blue.

Antique style stone ruined by table mush: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.80-carat-j-color-si1-clarity-sku-1028585 Other than that it's a lovely stone.

This one is interesting. http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.70-carat-j-color-vvs2-clarity-sku-947068 Six main cushion with faceting that is like a hearts and arrows stone. But except for those 'arrows' under the table, it's all mush. And the crown facets aren't that bright and contrasty, though it does have some. This one will likely be mostly green on the crown with some reds. Under the table, I'm not 100% sure how it will perform on the ASET. If I had to guess I'd say the 'mushy' areas would be white and the 'arrows' would be green with maybe a tiny bit of red.
Yes, the mush would be white. You can again see that it is very yellow there and it is mucsh because the lens can only focus from table to about 1.5x the depth of the stone. Longer ray paths can be 5 to 10 times the depth of the stone and this are fuzzy or mushy

This is what you want to see for an "A" ASET:
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/1.00-carat-j-color-vvs1-clarity-sku-1052426
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.70-carat-i-color-vs2-clarity-sku-876889
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/1.01-carat-j-color-vvs2-clarity-sku-748995
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/0.90-carat-j-color-vs2-clarity-sku-964783

Some of those have too much black which would show up as too much blue in an ASET

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Wow this is fascinating, thank you for writing that up Gypsy! Great material to study, how do cushions compare with rounds for light return?

The first JA one came and it is very pretty but not quite perfect for me. The sparkles are very small and don't go very deep (hard to describe), it's almost more like a shimmer. I really liked how evenly distributed it is and there's no bow tie which is really cool, definitely a gorgeous stone and will make someone very happy. I ordered the ED one, I think it'll have bigger flashes, can't wait to see it!

Some of those cushions are close to nice and have similar proportions to round brilliant cuts - but most have much steeper crown angles - and one way to tell is they appear to have many many facets. This is because light is bent at a steeper angle - it is called Kozebie in Europe - it is where in a round brilliant you can see the entire pavilion main facet and culet thru the crown in face up position.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

This is modelled in DiamCalc.
in actual fact the table region of this diamond could never be photographed as seen here because it would be totally out of focus (i.e. Mushy)

 

[SandyK]

Interesting idea! I remember Queradas mentioned cushions earlier too. I'm definitely not set on the oval/half moon design anymore.

Gorgeous setting, I discounted it earlier because I thought it would require a step cut center stone. Do you think a cushion would look good with the shields/Epaulette? Or are step cut side stones better with step cut centers? I was also considering going back to the very first idea of round center with pear side stones.

Are there any smaller cushions that you love? Fiance is worried that the ring will be too big/attention grabbing with side stones. Maybe I'm underestimating the bling factor. What do you think would be a good center stone for 4.5 ring size? I wish there were easy ways to order/3d print settings with cheap fake stones to try a bunch on and figure out the right proportions.

In case you haven't found a website - I used Diamond Database to see the actual sizes of the ovals I was comparing (can't post the link?)

 

[Gypsy]

I will only post stones for you that I myself would potentially buy.

There are no other cushions in the 3 plus carat range, and in budget, that have faceting you will like that I would purchase right now.

 

[aftereffects15]

Gypsy - Thank you so much for looking!! You've helped me *so* much with this process. Have you considered starting a diamond concierge service? It wouldn't be hard to set up a website

Sandy - thanks! I've been looking at it for comparison

Garry - fascinating image, that explains a lot. thank you for sharing!

The ED diamond arrived and I like it *much* more. I was about to order the other JA stone to compare it to when this one became available again: https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/oval-cut/3.07-carat-e-color-vs1-clarity-sku-1057029 and they said they could get me an ASET image (yay!), I'll post it when it arrives and then figure out which to order

p.s. can videos be posted? I tried uploading with no luck