Help choosing centre stone for right hand ring

[ganache]

Hello all,

Long time fan, first time poster here

I'd like to have a right hand ring made and would be very grateful for some help choosing its centre stone - either a sapphire or a ruby. The advice posted for newbies by LD has been extremely helpful (thank you very much LD!) but I still have lots of questions, so apologies in advance.

Option 1: Blue sapphire - I'd like it to be a glowy mid/deep blue, "royal blue" - preferably cushion cut as squarish as possible, to be set at the centre of a halo/cluster with diamonds (in platinum with a rose gold band). I'd like "decent" finger coverage (preferably no less than 3 ct. and/or 7 x 7 mm) and I'm fine with heat treatment only. Some examples of the colour I have in mind are with gem fix (Blue Sapphires #1208, 1209, 1199, 1210)
http://www.gemfix.com/sapphire_blue.html#thumb

Option 2: Ruby - Cushion or oval as close to "pigeon blood" red as possible to be set in a cluster style similar to this:
http://www.catanachs.com.au/www/content/default.aspx?cid=1364&fid=783

A local jeweller has these two stones they have quoted to reset for me. Any thoughts on the stones alone (ignoring the settings as much as possible)? The sapphire is supposedly 3 ct Kashmiri and the ruby is 1.62 ct Burmese.





Note that I'm in Australia and Gemfix won't ship anything over a purchase price of $999 over here. Also, would you still recommend I send it to the AGL, even though I'm not in the US? Is a certificate from the GRS just as reputable?

Apologies again for all the questions and thank you so much in advance!!

 

[Niel]

Looooove the second photo posted

 

[treasurehunter]

nice ring, which jeweller is this ?

 

[CirrusClouds]

That Ruby is a beauty.

 

[Ren]

I think the color of both of those stones is absolutely gorgeous. The first picture of the sapphire is a bit dark - I know you said you like deep royal blue, but keep in mind that the stone will darken a bit once it's halo'd. Is it possible for you to examine the stones in different lighting situations?

 

[Starzin]

Hi Ganache - I understand your problem, we have a few Aussies here, me being one of them.

The two rings actually look to have good colour though the ruby is likely diffused (BE treated and this is not necessarily bad) for that colour and clarity. It's impossible to tell about the cut (e.g. windows, extinction etc) without macro pictures of the stones or videos.

Note that I'm in Australia and Gemfix won't ship anything over a purchase price of $999 over here. Also, would you still recommend I send it to the AGL, even though I'm not in the US? Is a certificate from the GRS just as reputable?

As you will have realised from reading LD's newbie thread, the most important point with sapphires and rubies is treatment. Do either of these have lab reports? You mentioned GRS and, in the absence of anything else and given how difficult it is for us in Australia, this would be acceptable if either or both of them had a GRS report.

The important thing is to "trust but verify" and I do believe that A lab report is important.

A little while ago someone posted a query about http://spectra.net.au/#!/about-us-1 but as yet no one has posted about using them.

 

[liao]

I will not buy that kashmir sapphire, it is lacking of the "sleepy" transparency. However, I am not 100% certain, because the picture is not really clear.

If you want the best royal blue sapphire, go for mogok sapphire!

Regarding the ruby, it is an okay ruby. Unfortunately, I will not consider that color as pigeon blood ruby. Additionally, my gut told me that stone is being treated. I think you need a report from a good lab. I recommend SSEF or Gubelin instead of AGL

http://www.ssef.ch/services/shipping-shuttles/

Becareful! 99% ruby sold in the market are "ruby filled glass" (it's a joke)

 

[ganache]

Thank you for all the replies! Please keep them coming!

nice ring, which jeweller is this ?

Treasurehunter, the jeweller is Catanach's. They're in Melbourne. I do like their work and am hoping to have the ring made by them - the dilemma seems to be finding the right centre stone for it!

 

[ganache]

Thank you, Ren!

I didn't realise hallowing would darken the colour. Definitely something to consider. I do feel the sapphire is a little too violet - not blue or vivid enough compared to what I had in mind. I plan on going to look at the stones again on Saturday - the lighting in the shop is fluorescent and they should hopefully let me take it outside.

I think the color of both of those stones is absolutely gorgeous. The first picture of the sapphire is a bit dark - I know you said you like deep royal blue, but keep in mind that the stone will darken a bit once it's halo'd. Is it possible for you to examine the stones in different lighting situations?

 

[ganache]

Thank you very much Starzin! Your reply is extremely helpful.

I don't know if either of the stones are accompanied by lab reports. I'll find out when I go back to take a closer look on the weekend. The ruby is quite gorgeous and seems to have stayed with me more.

It's times like this I wish we weren't so far away from the rest of the world - our choices seem pretty limited here.

Hi Ganache - I understand your problem, we have a few Aussies here, me being one of them.

The two rings actually look to have good colour though the ruby is likely diffused (BE treated and this is not necessarily bad) for that colour and clarity. It's impossible to tell about the cut (e.g. windows, extinction etc) without macro pictures of the stones or videos.

Note that I'm in Australia and Gemfix won't ship anything over a purchase price of $999 over here. Also, would you still recommend I send it to the AGL, even though I'm not in the US? Is a certificate from the GRS just as reputable?

As you will have realised from reading LD's newbie thread, the most important point with sapphires and rubies is treatment. Do either of these have lab reports? You mentioned GRS and, in the absence of anything else and given how difficult it is for us in Australia, this would be acceptable if either or both of them had a GRS report.

The important thing is to "trust but verify" and I do believe that A lab report is important.

A little while ago someone posted a query about http://spectra.net.au/#!/about-us-1 but as yet no one has posted about using them.

 

[chrono]

Option 1: Blue sapphire
Does not look particularly glowy but I will accept that photography can be a challenge. Given that the stone is sold as a Kahsmiri sapphire, I would want proof of this. SSEF and Gubelin are the two labs outside of the US that I trust. Sorry but I avoid GRS as much as possible.

Option 2: Ruby
Rubies are one of the most highly treated gemstones, period. Again, I would want a lab report detailing what sort of treatment it underwent and the level of flux healing it has.

Email the vendors below to see what they have available. They are unlikely to carry any Kashmiri sapphire but they are able to get some good quality blue sapphires consistently. They might also be able to find you a nice heat only ruby.
http://www.escobardiamonds.com/
http://highperformancediamonds.com/
https://www.etsy.com/shop/WILDSglobalminerals

 

[CirrusClouds]

I agree with the "heat only" factor on the Ruby. Lab report would be good. Also, the OP stated that they wanted close to "pigeon-blood" in a style like the one pictured; not stating that the one pictured was that color.

 

[LoversKites]

To repeat what has been said, a lab report from a reputable lab is an absolute must in my book for corundum, especially with famous origins.

 

[GregS]

Both stones are very pretty and possess top tier color. If the Ruby comes back as low/traditional heat only then I'd say go with the Ruby. Top color Rubies with non invasive treatment seem to be much rarer than Blue Sapphire.

 

[Starzin]

Thank you very much Starzin! Your reply is extremely helpful.

I don't know if either of the stones are accompanied by lab reports. I'll find out when I go back to take a closer look on the weekend. The ruby is quite gorgeous and seems to have stayed with me more.

It's times like this I wish we weren't so far away from the rest of the world - our choices seem pretty limited here.

You're welcome and I would agree with the others that a lab report is absolutely imperative when buying sapphire or ruby.

If Catanach's is selling that sapphire as a Kashmir I'd definitely want a lab report stating it as such - they are extremely rare and carry a premium. As renowned ruby-sapphire expert Richard Hughes says here-
This fair dame is placed upon a higher pedestal than all others, only to have it ripped out by every Tom, Dick and Malagasy. First, let me let you in on a base little secret. The Kashmir mine has produced jack-doodle since the 1930's. And the lion's share of production came out during a half-breath period of just seven short years, from 1881–1887.

While I appreciate Liao and Chrono saying that SSEF would be a good lab choice - from Australia that would cost about $AU400 for a lab report (non-member, no origin) for a 1.5ct sapphire or ruby, not including shipping.

If you buy in Australia, I would be tempted to try Spectra ($AU150) unless the jeweller would be prepared to send it for an AGL brief, and is familiar with doing so. Shipping is probably in the order of $AU40 each way.

Alternatively, since you are in Melbourne, I would strongly suggest having a talk/visit to Garry Holloway of Holloway Diamonds. He is a part owner of PS and active in Rocky Talky. His main store is in Canterbury and I'm sure he would be able to help in the search with ideas on where/how to obtain a decent sapphire or ruby in OZ and how to get a lab report that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. He may even know more about Spectra.

For instance, there is a company in Australia called O'Niels Affiliated that used to have a good range of sapphires (not inky OZ ones) but was taken over a couple of years ago and is now trade only viewing. This is a shame because it would be better if, like Pala, they would let us view the stones and then go through a jeweller for pricing.

It is also important to realise that very few jewellers know much at all about coloured stones, in Australia this is even more so, even ones like Catanach's (I lived in Melbourne for many years). If they can't back it up with a lab report it's probably a fairy story. Remember it's buyer beware.

If you buy from a US vendor you could ask them to send it to AGL before they ship if the stone doesn't already have a lab report. US vendors are usually open to this since it's a common request.

But back to the to rings above... before you visit these again it is important to get windows and extinction under your belt (refer back to LD's newbie thread). Please view it in every light you can because they are likely to shift colour. Please take lots of close up photos (smartphone is fine) and post them for us. Don't be in a hurry to buy - I know it's hard and you can almost taste it - but it's likely you will also pay far more for the stone if you're in a hurry to get the one that's available in a store.

Lastly, if you give us a budget we have many sets of eyes here to help find one that either will/can come with a lab report and a good price, all it requires is a little patience It's far better to do some homework than perpetually wonder when you look down at your ring.

 

[pregcurious]

I agree with many of the posts above that if you're paying Kashmir prices on the sapphire, it should be accompanied by a report estimating origin (not for example an AGL GemBrief).

If you are _not_ paying Kashmir prices, you can just judge the stone on it's aesthetic quality and level of treatment (I would still expect a report showing level of treatment). I would eventually want to know if it is from Kashmir.

 

[Starzin]

Preg - thanks for clarifying the AGL brief and origin report are two different things. I was aware of smudging the line while writing but forgot to change it.

 

[ganache]

Thank you very much for your suggestions Chrono! This is very helpful to me. From memory the sapphire wasn't especially glowy which is why I'm not feeling too smitten by it - I'll have to go back and look again.

For some reason reports from the GRS seem more common here in Australia, so thank you for letting me know you don't find them particularly trustworthy! I think given the prices being asked, an AGL report shouldn't be too much to ask for, but it's also good to know there are some other options.

Option 1: Blue sapphire
Does not look particularly glowy but I will accept that photography can be a challenge. Given that the stone is sold as a Kahsmiri sapphire, I would want proof of this. SSEF and Gubelin are the two labs outside of the US that I trust. Sorry but I avoid GRS as much as possible.

Option 2: Ruby
Rubies are one of the most highly treated gemstones, period. Again, I would want a lab report detailing what sort of treatment it underwent and the level of flux healing it has.

Email the vendors below to see what they have available. They are unlikely to carry any Kashmiri sapphire but they are able to get some good quality blue sapphires consistently. They might also be able to find you a nice heat only ruby.
http://www.escobardiamonds.com/
http://highperformancediamonds.com/
https://www.etsy.com/shop/WILDSglobalminerals

 

[ganache]

Thank you LoversKites. Given the general consensus, I'm now even more adamant about obtaining a lab report...

To repeat what has been said, a lab report from a reputable lab is an absolute must in my book for corundum, especially with famous origins.

 

[ganache]

Thanks GregS! Yes the ruby is especially lovely (even though its half the size of the sapphire) - I'm looking forward to knowing more about its treatment.

Both stones are very pretty and possess top tier color. If the Ruby comes back as low/traditional heat only then I'd say go with the Ruby. Top color Rubies with non invasive treatment seem to be much rarer than Blue Sapphire.

 

[ganache]

Starzin and pregcurious, thank you so much for your advice!!

Starzin, thank you also for the historical facts, suggestions about Holloway Diamonds and for all the info about the reports - they are really very much appreciated

Although I'm a complete newbie, I already feel much more confident. I'll have to re-read LD's post though before looking at more stones - I don't really trust my untrained eyes and my husband is more blind than I am!

The ring is meant to be an heirloom to be passed down to my son and future generations but I don't mind if the stone is not Kashmiri - colour, cut, size (and of course treatment) are more important to me - I want to enjoy it now as well! Of course, as pregcurious mentioned, I wouldn't want to be paying a premium for its origin if it hasn't been validated.

 

[minousbijoux]

Depending on your location, might there be gem shows you could attend? It is such a good way to see many stones in one fell swoop and get an idea of what your specific tolerance level is for inclusions, saturation, tone and cutting...its definitely worth a look up of "gem shows" to see what you may have.

 

[ganache]

minousbijoux, thank you very much, that's a great idea! I'll have to investigate...

Depending on your location, might there be gem shows you could attend? It is such a good way to see many stones in one fell swoop and get an idea of what your specific tolerance level is for inclusions, saturation, tone and cutting...its definitely worth a look up of "gem shows" to see what you may have.

 

[Starzin]

Unfortunately Australia just simply doesn't have gem shows the way the US and Europe do

If there are any I haven't come across (and that is entirely possible though I do keep Googling!) they are likely to be in NSW or QLD. There are some industry specific ones for pearls and opals, but not much else or they are trade only http://jewelleryfair.com.au/Goldcoast/

Gemfest and Gemboree are the biggest and most well known for the public but a vastly different animal to what the US thinks of as a gem show . If you scroll to the bottom of this page http://www.gemfest.com.au/ there is a video typical of these events.

 

[ganache]

Thank you Starzin

The video is very enlightening - not at all what I would have imagined a gem fair to be!

Also, Starzin, if I was to return a stone purchased from a US vendor, do you know if Australian customs would reimburse original importation taxes?

Thanks gain - you've been so helpful.

 

[Starzin]

Yes, the video shows something quite different to what is spoken of here as a gem fair (though I'd imagine the US has these too) - but if you ever get a chance to go, DO! They are still a lot of fun and great people and "London to a brick" you'll come away with something

Yes, you can get refunds and you will need to read ALL of this https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/custom-ring-ausfta.130164/ - sorry, but I did say homework didn't I?

I can't remember the details now (a while since I've read it) but there is a difference between the 10% GST which is payable on everything and the 5% duty payable on anything over $1,000 but which you can avoid via AUSFTA. However that thread is invaluable for Aussies and it probably goes into haw to claim back the GST if indeed you can.

I think Lestat came and went but AJ (Arjunajane) was around for a few years and bought many precision stones from the US but no longer posts here. You can click on the "all user's topics" next to her avatar to view some of the lovely stones she purchased. I did see that she popped in recently but didn't stay.

 

[ganache]

Thanks again Starzin! I have my bedtime reading all set out now

If anyone is looking for a sapphire that meets the requirements of "option 1" in the first post of this thread, Joe Escobar Diamonds have quite a few in stock. Unfortunately they don't ship internationally. Just thought I'd let people know - no rubies, but definitely sapphires.

 

[soberguy]

GRS not trustworthy???!!!! Millions upon millions of dollars at auction would strongly disagree with that!!!! Here is a 2.5 million dollar necklace as an example of their reputation...

 

[liao]

GRS not trustworthy???!!!! Millions upon millions of dollars at auction would strongly disagree with that!!!! Here is a 2.5 million dollar necklace as an example of their reputation...

imagine that you are the owner of one of the most reputable gem lab in the world. One day, you have two customers, one of them is Mr.Li and the other one is Sotheby. Both customers handed the same 5ct blue sapphire. will you analyze Mr.Li's sapphire as detail as the one from Sotheby? If I am the owner of that gem lab, I will gather all senior gemologist within my organization, and tell each of them to analyze sotheby's 5ct sapphire independently.

 

[ganache]

soberguy and liao, thank you for the alternative perspectives. I didn't realise this was such a contentious issue! I'm sorry if anyone has been offended, it really wasn't my intention - just a naive question I probably shouldn't have raised here.

starzin, the thread about the FTA you linked me to is amazing - I haven't read it all but enough to find out the 5% tax is not payable when I (and it seems many others) assumed it was. To be honest, I thought you may have had a cold or weren't feeling too well when you wrote about it yesterday! lol Thanks again

Also, I made contact with Holloway Diamonds today. The lady I spoke to mentioned they may have a couple of sapphires similar to what I have in mind but no rubies. She said all their stones are completely "natural", not even heat treated, so size would need to be sacrificed given my budget...