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Help Choosing Between Two Diamonds

S

scaredofclowns

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 7, 2019
Messages
11
First time buying a diamond and I think I've narrowed it down to two choices. Not sure there's a right answer without actually seeing the diamonds in person but I thought some experts could help.

Both 1 carat, I, VS1, Excellent Cut, Eye Clean (to a rookie)

The difference is in the proportions and slightly in price

Diamond 1 $230 more dollars
Table: 58%
Depth: 60.2%
Crown angle: 34
Crown height: 14.5%
Pavilion angle: 40.6
Pavilion depth: 42.5%
Girdle: Thin to medium 3.5%
Star length: 45%
Lower girdle halve: 75%
Measurements: 6.47 x 6.50 x 3.90
​
Diamond 2
Table: 57%
Depth: 61.9%
Crown angle: 36
Crown height: 16%
Pavilion angle: 40.6
Pavilion depth: 42.5%
Girdle: Medium to slightly thick 3.5%
Star length: 50%
Lower girdle halve: 75%
Measurements: 6.38 x 6.41 x 3.96​

Let me know if you need more information. Any recommendations/advice greatly appreciated!
 
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Do you have pictures?
 
Run the proportions through the HCA tool to check they score under 2.

(I think both will.)
 
I didn't know about the HCA tool. Thanks!
 
Looks like Diamond 1 is the winner after running it through the HCA (0.7) but should I be concerned with this?

cert2.jpg
 
scaredofclowns said:
Looks like Diamond 1 is the winner after running it through the HCA (0.7) but should I be concerned with this?

cert2.jpg
Click to expand...

FYI, a lower HCA score isn’t “better”. Its a rejection tool and anything under 2 is worth considering. In some cases diamonds with scores of up to 2.4-2.5 can be worth considering, I believe...but the general rule is under 2.
 
Exactly. No such thing as "better" . It's just "pass" (under 2) or "fail" (over 2).

What was the HCA for the 2nd option?
 
1.7 so it did pass but hard not to get sucked into the different categories saying excellent vs very good :razz:
 
scaredofclowns said:
1.7 so it did pass but hard not to get sucked into the different categories saying excellent vs very good :razz:
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What did it say for each stone option in terms of excellent/very good for each category?

The 36 crown on 2 is slightly worrying without any advanced images (ASET/IS).
 
Can you ask the vendors of each one if ASET/IS is available? I personally prefer stone 2 from the pictures, but worry a bit about the steep crown
 
I'll inquire about ASET/IT for both.

Stone 1 was all excellent
Stone 2 had very good for all the categories except fire which was excellent.
 
What's your budget? Unless you need vs1 clarity for cultural reasons, it's overkill. Vs2 will be eye clean 99% of the time, and eye clean SI1s can be found pretty easily. So that will help you with options.
 
No ASET/IT for either stone.

I think my search is wrapping up with one of these two. I don't have the bandwidth to keep searching.
 
Stone 1 looks better on paper, but Stone 2 def looks better in your pics.

If ASET isn't an option, can you see them in person?
 
scaredofclowns said:
No ASET/IT for either stone.

I think my search is wrapping up with one of these two. I don't have the bandwidth to keep searching.
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I totally get it, but can we look for you a tiny bit? I just want to see if there are other options
 
Sure, hard to turn down help. Budget is $5,500 give our take a couple hundred. More concerned with quality over carat size.
 
If it makes you feel any better, either of these stones will likely be better than what 98% of the people out there have. If they both VS1 then it is almost certain they'll both be eye clean. Don't blow your brains out over a few decimals of HCA scores here and there.

I feel your diamond search exhaustion. You have to remember that this community is full of perfectionists who look at diamonds all day and have unrealistic expectations that do not reflect the average consumer (or their budgets) and 99.9% of whom won't be able to tell the difference between a "Very Good" vs "Excellent" HCA score or a 75 vs 76 LFG.

The only other suggestion I have is buy from someone with a return policy. Looking at specs and pics is one thing, but if you receive it and there's something really wrong, you need to have an out (unless you're buying it and seeing it in person).
 
TODiamonds said:
If it makes you feel any better, either of these stones will likely be better than what 98% of the people out there have. If they both VS1 then it is almost certain they'll both be eye clean. Don't blow your brains out over a few decimals of HCA scores here and there.

I feel your diamond search exhaustion. You have to remember that this community is full of perfectionists who look at diamonds all day and have unrealistic expectations that do not reflect the average consumer (or their budgets) and 99.9% of whom won't be able to tell the difference between a "Very Good" vs "Excellent" HCA score or a 75 vs 76 LFG.

The only other suggestion I have is buy from someone with a return policy. Looking at specs and pics is one thing, but if you receive it and there's something really wrong, you need to have an out (unless you're buying it and seeing it in person).
Click to expand...
All of the places he's looking at have solid return policies (I am about 99% sure I know the vendors based on his pics).
 
I guess I should have said not concerned with carat size but minimum 1 carat. Have to keep up with the Joneses (at least a little bit). The ASET, Ideal, Hearts images are helpful.
 
scaredofclowns said:
I guess I should have said not concerned with carat size but minimum 1 carat. Have to keep up with the Joneses (at least a little bit). The ASET, Ideal, Hearts images are helpful.
Click to expand...


Totally get it. Just FYI the .952 will be indistinguishable from option 2 that you were considering in size, and likely only distinguishable from option 1 if they were side by side. The general rule is that .2mm is the size at which differences start to be noticeable. In this case it's 6.31 vs. 6.38 (which won't be notable) or 6.31 vs. 6.47 (likely only noticeable if compared next to each other). But no one can look at a .952 and say "OMG THAT'S NOT A 1CT STONE!"

But of course you have to be comfortable with it, and if you would feel more comfortable with a 1ct stone on paper I get it. Just wanted you to know.
 
lovedogs said:
What did it say for each stone option in terms of excellent/very good for each category?

The 36 crown on 2 is slightly worrying without any advanced images (ASET/IS).
Click to expand...
I thought it didn’t matter what it says for each category??
 
I get the 1 ct thing... you want to be able to tell her that it's 1 ct (and not have to lie about it). She will want to be able to tell her friends its 1 ct. I would feel the exact same way in your shoes.

WE know that 0.952 will be indistinguishable (and will probably look even better), but the moment you start trying to rationalize it that way you've already lost the battle :lol:
 
headlight said:
I thought it didn’t matter what it says for each category??
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I don't think it's a huge issue, I was just wondering, ESPECIALLY without advanced images and with a 36 crown. I was trying to understand what might be making that stone visually more appealing to me in pictures vs option 1.
 
I, too, prefer the photo of the 2nd one, as others expressed. Interesting that the one that looks better on paper is not the one preferred visually.
 
TODiamonds said:
If it makes you feel any better, either of these stones will likely be better than what 98% of the people out there have. If they both VS1 then it is almost certain they'll both be eye clean. Don't blow your brains out over a few decimals of HCA scores here and there.
Click to expand...
I agree.

TODiamonds said:
I feel your diamond search exhaustion. You have to remember that this community is full of perfectionists who look at diamonds all day and have unrealistic expectations that do not reflect the average consumer (or their budgets) and 99.9% of whom won't be able to tell the difference between a "Very Good" vs "Excellent" HCA score or a 75 vs 76 LFG.
Click to expand...
I disagree.

;-)

High expectations do not mean 'unrealistic' expectations or perfectionism, and the size of budget is irrelevant - many amazing stones have been found, from under half a carat to 5ct+, and the aim of the PS community is to find the best that is out there within a party's given criteria, push for improvements to quality within the market generally, ensure those buying do not get ripped off, and educate those doing the buying with regards to their options. The members here are not all rolling in cash and buying diamonds daily and on a whim - there are a few with big budgets and big stones, of course, but I would argue the socioeconomic cross-section of the PS population broadly mirrors that of 'the real world'.

Your last point is probably fair comment, in that it takes an expert eye with a lot of 'real life' exposure to accurately assess an unkown stone 'in the wild', which many/most PSers are unlikely to have for a variety of reasons, but the science and understanding of its effects on the material is still valid on a theoretical level and can be used to sift a virtual list of options down to a few potential winners, which is the whole aim of the HCA tool and PS generally.

Does all the above mean PSers are not 'average' consumers with 'average consumer expectations'? Yes - and if that means more and more people buy excellent diamonds and don't expect, or settle for, the average lifeless, included, overpriced crap from 'maul' stores, then I'm not sure I see any problems with that?


All IMHO, of course ;-) :)
 
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headlight said:
I, too, prefer the photo of the 2nd one, as others expressed. Interesting that the one that looks better on paper is not the one preferred visually.
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Is this the first time anyone has replied to their own post? Lol!
I realize there needs to be a framework to work from... but I also think there can be a little variance. I don’t think a slight variance will be qualitatively seen. I do think some of it is about being mind clean on what the report shows... would be fun to set up a series of just real life photos with real life amateur video, no professional images... and people weigh in as to whether each diamond is appealing to them. Even if you look at Tolkowsky, AGS doesn’t totally follow exactly... there is a range.
Also, sometimes someone has a feeling about a certain diamond and they just have to go with their intuition. Also, all super ideals, for example, are equally vetted, yet buyers here, especially PSers doing an upgrade, will debate heavily between 2 or 3 stones.
 
OoohShiny said:
High expectations do not mean 'unrealistic' expectations or perfectionism, and the size of budget is irrelevant - many amazing stones have been found, from under half a carat to 5ct+, and the aim of the PS community is to find the best that is out there within a party's given criteria, push for improvements to quality within the market generally, ensure those buying do not get ripped off, and educate those doing the buying with regards to their options. The members here are not all rolling in cash and buying diamonds daily and on a whim - there are a few with big budgets and big stones, of course, but I would argue the socioeconomic cross-section of the PS population broadly mirrors that of 'the real world'.

Your last point is probably fair comment, in that it takes an expert eye with a lot of 'real life' exposure to accurately assess an unkown stone 'in the wild', which many/most PSers are unlikely to have for a variety of reasons, but the science and understanding of its effects on the material is still valid on a theoretical level and can be used to sift a virtual list of options down to a few potential winners, which is the whole aim of the HCA tool and PS generally.

Does all the above mean PSers are not 'average' consumers with 'average consumer expectations'? Yes - and if that means more and more people buy excellent diamonds and don't expect, or settle for, the average lifeless, included, overpriced crap from 'maul' stores, then I'm not sure I see any problems with that?


All IMHO, of course ;-) :)
Click to expand...

Look I'm not trying to discredit anyone on this forum. I've actually learned most of what I know about diamonds by lurking on this forum. And without a doubt... all the regulars here have good intentions.

I just think the view generally held among the PS community is not reflective of what the views of the general public would be when it comes to diamonds. I think we can agree almost all the regulars on this forum would sacrifice size for super-ideal proportions. In reality, most people (ie: 99% of the general public who know nothing about diamonds) would favor a larger rock - all else being the same. That's what would make them happier. I actually put this to the test, I brought some of my female friends with the keenest eyes with me, and we looked at ... *gasp* a bunch of actual diamonds IN REAL LIFE. I showed them super-ideals and I showed them normal ideals (ie: GIA average XXX). Let me tell you... they ALL chose the bigger rock (which was cheaper than the super ideal). HCA 2.3, 2.5 it didn't matter. As long as it was eye clean and had decent proportions, they all wanted the size. That's what made them happy... not an HCA of 0.8 (which by the way is only ONE person's subjective opinion of what a beautiful diamond should look like).

Typical PS thread:
Newbie: Tell me what you guys think of this diamond. (usually a decent diamond, not super ideal, but better than 95% of what's out there. Price is decent.)
PS: What does HCA say? Greater than 2? Throw it out.
Newbie: Well, my budget is __________
PS: The crown angle is 35%.. that can be problematic. and that 41% pavilion can lead to leakage. Let us do some digging for you.
PS: Comes back with list of Whiteflash, HPD, CBI, BG diamonds. By the way for JUST a few x hundred / y thousand dollars more... you can have this super ideal! It will look fantastic! AND you can upgrade it in the future cause they have this great policy! (again shows how distorted PS is because 99% of the population out there will never "upgrade" their diamonds. Who has money for that shit?)
OP: goes crazy, enters the black hole of analysis paralysis - over something his fiance or 99% of the general population would never have even noticed, and is convinced to spend more.

Sometimes, I even see newbie's irritated in threads because they feel as though the crowd here is pushing something on them that they weren't ever interested in (ie: branded super-ideals). They just want an opinion on the diamond THEY chose - why? maybe because it was affordable for them, maybe because they like how it looks, maybe because they actually saw it in person, who knows.

Again, while everyone has good intentions, my opinion (which I'm sure most of you will disagree with but that's ok) is that PS'ers live in a bubble and generally aren't able to put themselves in the shoes of the average consumer who doesn't have a PHD in diamonds. The concerning threads are the ones that push people's budgets... how do you know what that person's individual financial circumstances are? What if that extra few thousand you're urging them to spend is the difference between whether or not they take out a second mortgage on their home? What if it's a student or young recent graduate who hasn't paid off their school loans? These are the threads I find somewhat irresponsible because you are urging someone to stretch financially without knowing anything about that person or his/her financial situation.

The reality is that WF, HPD, BG's businesses are catered to the 1% out there... their price points are not meant to appeal to the general population. That's their business model. And whether the "value" offered by these super ideal brands is worth it is a whole subjective thing that I don't think we need to get into here. But at the end of the day, value and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I would bet the farm that the majority of common folk out there who don't know a thing about diamonds would be happier with a larger diamond, with maybe a 2.3 HCA, instead of the superideal with the 1.8 HCA. So if your woman will be happier with the bigger rock, and you save a thousand bucks in the process, then why blow your brains out over these specs.

I apologize if this rubs people the wrong way. I have the utmost respect for the expertise of the folks on this forum and I know they all want to be helpful. I use this forum extensively because I'm genuinely interested in learning more and I'm fortunate enough to be in that higher income bracket where I can shop at branded super-ideal vendors that are prominent here. I just wanted share my honest views in the hopes that this will help some of you be more empathetic and sensitive towards the many folks who come here seeking your advice. And Yes - my examples above are exaggerated and over generalized, just to prove a point :)
 
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