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Help - 2ct Round

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jleone01

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 10, 2006
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7
Thinking of buying this ring today - any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks !!

Round
8.00 - 8.03 x 4.98
2.00 Ct
G SI1 (eye clean)
GIA
Depth - 62.1
Table Size 58
Crown Angle 35.5
Crown Height 14.5
Pavillion Angle 41
Pavilion depth 43
Star Length 55
Lower Half 75
Girdle Slightly thick , faceted (4.2)
Culet None
Cut - EX
Polish - EX
Symmetry - Ex
Fluorescense - None
 
welcome to PS

sorry to say this is not a great stone.

ETA: I should say, it is /unlikely/ to be a great stone.
 
can you explain why ?
 
I''m not JulieN, but I would say the crown/pavilion angle combo is too high, and I prefer slightly less depth.
 
can you suggest another stone I should consider ? Thanks for your help..
 
Help me understand - if the GIA certs the stone with an Ex cut grade - not sure I understand why the other stones you mentioned are considered superior ?
 
Date: 8/10/2006 2:07:58 PM
Author: Kim N
I''m not JulieN, but I would say the crown/pavilion angle combo is too high, and I prefer slightly less depth.
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exactly.....ditto this.
 
Date: 8/10/2006 6:35:29 PM
Author: jleone01
Help me understand - if the GIA certs the stone with an Ex cut grade - not sure I understand why the other stones you mentioned are considered superior ?
Click to expand...
Because GIA''s definition of "excellent" is much more lenient than AGS''s definition of Ideal.

The other stones are likely to be superior because they exhibit crown/pavilion angle relationships that work well together.

If your stone had a 40.6 pavilion to go with the 35.5 crown, it would likely improve it.

If your 41 pavilion had a 34 or 34.1 crown angle, it would likely improve it.

But, putting 35.5 together with the 41 runs toward steep/deep, and that tends to cause a ring of leakage under the table.
 
Just a personal comment about this particular angle combo. I generally and primarily see stones with a shallower angle combos (34.x crown with 40.7-40.9 pavilion) but not too long ago we had a 35.1 crown angle with a 41.2 pavilion angle and while the stone did show some leakage under the table in a critical analysis (probably akin to the info at the link provided above), this leakage was not visible to the human eye and the stone was a very bright stone with excellent optics. In my opinion, a 62% depth isn''t a valid reason to disqualify it either. Some of the brightest and even most precision cut stones have depths around this range. The difference in size in relation to one with a slightly shallower depth is virtually the width of a piece of hair or 2. My suggestion to you would be to view the diamond, perhaps alongside one that others might recommend here and pick what appeals most to your eyes. You may be surprised to find that your personal preference may indeed lie with that. It might or it might not. Best thing to do is see and compare for yourself but I''ll say from experience that that certainly is not a dud.

Kind regards,
 
Date: 8/10/2006 9:25:10 PM
Author: Rhino
Just a personal comment about this particular angle combo. I generally and primarily see stones with a shallower angle combos (34.x crown with 40.7-40.9 pavilion) but not too long ago we had a 35.1 crown angle with a 41.2 pavilion angle and while the stone did show some leakage under the table in a critical analysis (probably akin to the info at the link provided above), this leakage was not visible to the human eye and the stone was a very bright stone with excellent optics.
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I don''t think any one of us would dispute that it''s probably *possible* for any stone to defy the norm and be beautiful, so it doesn''t surprise me that you ran across a stone of these proportions that looked nice.

Knowing that it''s possible, I''d absolutely consider it..........*IF* I couldn''t readily find something that offered the whole package. That''s when I''d begin to make compromises.

But, in fairly short order, Julie and Kim were able to readily find candidates that stood a much better chance (by the numbers) of being winners, so if I were looking for the easiest way to find a good stone, I''d start with the "nuts" and work outward from there. I don''t like compromising unless there is no other option.

To me, it''s only worth it to stretch a little if it means cash back in my pocket. That''s why I''ll hunt a bit more for an SI2 stone.....sure it would be easier to go VS2 or SI1, but there is a payoff to me if I widen my search.

In the case of a slightly deeper stone or in the case of a stone with angles that aren''t typically considered great combinations, there''s little savings to be had by widening the field.
 
Date: 8/10/2006 9:40:59 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 8/10/2006 9:25:10 PM
Author: Rhino
Just a personal comment about this particular angle combo. I generally and primarily see stones with a shallower angle combos (34.x crown with 40.7-40.9 pavilion) but not too long ago we had a 35.1 crown angle with a 41.2 pavilion angle and while the stone did show some leakage under the table in a critical analysis (probably akin to the info at the link provided above), this leakage was not visible to the human eye and the stone was a very bright stone with excellent optics.
Click to expand...
I don''t think any one of us would dispute that it''s probably *possible* for any stone to defy the norm and be beautiful, so it doesn''t surprise me that you ran across a stone of these proportions that looked nice.

Knowing that it''s possible, I''d absolutely consider it..........*IF* I couldn''t readily find something that offered the whole package. That''s when I''d begin to make compromises.

But, in fairly short order, Julie and Kim were able to readily find candidates that stood a much better chance (by the numbers) of being winners, so if I were looking for the easiest way to find a good stone, I''d start with the ''nuts'' and work outward from there. I don''t like compromising unless there is no other option.

To me, it''s only worth it to stretch a little if it means cash back in my pocket. That''s why I''ll hunt a bit more for an SI2 stone.....sure it would be easier to go VS2 or SI1, but there is a payoff to me if I widen my search.

In the case of a slightly deeper stone or in the case of a stone with angles that aren''t typically considered great combinations, there''s little savings to be had by widening the field.
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Understood. LOL... there are many cases in which we think alike Alj.
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I realize this guy may have probably just found this on the net and soliciting info but as a vendor I tend to think from that perspective ... ie. perhaps a jeweler whom he likes and was working with found him this stone, etc. then he comes asking opinions and it gets tanked and is pointed in another direction when the stone really isn''t such a train wreck (don''t recall if he listed a price or not so not sure about value there). Really though, I understand where you guys are coming from. Sorry if my comments through ya off a little too because at one time I might have counseled against such a stone ... well ... it would depend of course on how anal the buyer is too. In a critical exam a 35.5/41 would flop not only on HCA but also Bscope, Isee2, IS, etc. One unexpected turn my research has taken me Alj, is as I''m investigating moreso the GIA Ex steep/deeps ... even though critical analysis under the technologies suggests otherwise, an actual *practical exam* of these with the eyes shows different and in some cases even more attractive than a stone that seemingly does better on the techies. Not sure if you caught my short conversation with rogue in another thread but he had a 34.5/41.6 combo (GIA Ex) and the ring of death was not visible to him unless he blocked the pavilion. I found his commentary interesting as I''m awaiting to see one of these myself. Ok ... rambled enough.
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In any case ... back to your regularly scheduled programming...
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Have a great day.

Kind regards,
 

I have to say the diamond in questions is a beauty in person - with your expertise in the market - what would you consider a fair asking price for the stone?


Also the GIA cut grade, if I''m not mistaken, is a relatively new addition to a certification so is it possible that the HCA tool or others mentioned have not allowed for the updated data from the GIA ? I''ve been told by my local dealers the GIA certs are highly respected in the market, more so than some of the others and would thus demand a premium. Thoughts??


- Regards
 
Beauty is personal.

Pricing is relative to the market, but you can use the Pricescope your diamond at the top to find what similar stones are going for at online prices.

The GIA cut grade has been out since 2006, and the forum thoroughly expounded on it. Relevant thread on steep/deep stones such as yours if you wish to read: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-did-gia-included-steep-deep-diamonds-in-excellent.32135/=

GIA is well respected, but it is not God. AGS Ideal stones carry a higher premium over GIA EX stones.
 
Date: 8/11/2006 11:21:54 AM
Author: jleone01

I have to say the diamond in questions is a beauty in person - with your expertise in the market - what would you consider a fair asking price for the stone?



Also the GIA cut grade, if I''m not mistaken, is a relatively new addition to a certification so is it possible that the HCA tool or others mentioned have not allowed for the updated data from the GIA ? I''ve been told by my local dealers the GIA certs are highly respected in the market, more so than some of the others and would thus demand a premium. Thoughts??



- Regards
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jleone01, I''m not an expert, but I do have a diamond that does not fall into Ideal parameters, but is beautiful none-the-less. I would not want to offer what would seem a fair price. Instead, you should use the Pricescope your diamond feature above and plug in the same numbers and you will see what other stones are available with similar proportions and at what price points. Then you can see if you are getting a good "deal" or not.

On your question about GIA and the HCA. They are not tied to each other. GIA is extremely reputable. Including a cut grade for round diamonds is new, since January 2006. GIA has begun rounding numbers and including steep deep stones in their Excellent grade after conduting thousands and thousands of real life viewing hours by consumers as to what appeals to the human eye. While GIA is considered a very reliable grading source (my diamond is GIA graded), many now consider AGS to be more strict and consider AGS graded Ideal cuts to be the most coveted.

Garry Holloway created the HCA tool and while I wouldn''t want to comment for him, the tool would not seem, in my opinion, to need to incorporate updates from GIA. The HCA is a terrific tool, which will give you an idea of the performance of a diamond (for example, my GIA Very Good graded stone, scored 1.2 on HCA, which makes sense when you see how beautiful my diamond is). It is not tied to AGS or GIA or any other lab.

Gary, if I have gotten anything wrong with what I''ve written, please correct me.
 
Hi jleone,


Date: 8/11/2006 11:21:54 AM
Author: jleone01

I have to say the diamond in questions is a beauty in person - with your expertise in the market - what would you consider a fair asking price for the stone?

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Best is to follow the advice given and "ps your diamond". Bear iin mind however that most internet only websites are not going to offer you the level of service you are getting at a local store and that will most likely be reflected in the pricing too. Ie. most internet only sites do not even see the stone in question and there are many variables that can only be checked/confirmed/visually inspected with a local jeweler (which should also be confirmed with a reputable appraiser as well) that these sites can not provide. Just good to keep that in mind when "ps''ing your diamond".


Also the GIA cut grade, if I''m not mistaken, is a relatively new addition to a certification so is it possible that the HCA tool or others mentioned have not allowed for the updated data from the GIA ? I''ve been told by my local dealers the GIA certs are highly respected in the market, more so than some of the others and would thus demand a premium. Thoughts??

Click to expand...
Correct. GIA Reports are perhaps the most respected worldwide. In fact many major Japanese laboratories have recently adopted their cut grading system as their own. AGS laboratories are equally respected as well and when it comes to cut grading offer what is perhaps a more critical examination of things like light leakage, contrast, etc. which is an aspect I like about it over the GIA system. I am for *critical examination*.

The one area I like about GIA''s over AGS is theirs was confirmed with over 70k observations with over 2200 different diamonds. I would have liked to see AGS confirm their grades in like manner (perhaps on not so grand an experiment,, but at least with a few thousand). If they did I think there would be even further fine tuning of that system.

Both are among the most respected labs around the world.

One reason I suggested a comparison is because the stone you are considering, while a GIA Ex may not make AGS Ideal due to leakage within the stone. However a 35.5/41 I don''t think would show leakage visible to the eye.

I relate it as comparing a VS1 to an SI1. In a critical exam the VS1 will win out everytime under the microscope but in a practical exam most SI1''s will look identical to a VS1 or even an IF for that matter.
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Hope that helps.

Peace,
 
Date: 8/11/2006 11:38:47 AM
Author: JulieN
Beauty is personal.

Pricing is relative to the market, but you can use the Pricescope your diamond at the top to find what similar stones are going for at online prices.

The GIA cut grade has been out since 2006, and the forum thoroughly expounded on it. Relevant thread on steep/deep stones such as yours if you wish to read: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-did-gia-included-steep-deep-diamonds-in-excellent.32135/=

GIA is well respected, but it is not God. AGS Ideal stones carry a higher premium over GIA EX stones.
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Thanks for posting that Julie. It''s funny reading my comments from last August particularly pertaining to backdrops behind diamonds.
emotion-15.gif
 
I like those stunna shades you''re wearing, Jon.
 
Date: 8/11/2006 11:21:54 AM
Author: jleone01

I have to say the diamond in questions is a beauty in person - with your expertise in the market - what would you consider a fair asking price for the stone?

Click to expand...

As long as YOU find the diamond in question beautiful, that''s the most important thing.
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Date: 8/11/2006 1:39:54 PM
Author: JulieN
I like those stunna shades you''re wearing, Jon.
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LOL... thanks. They''re as geeky as my real ones. I wear glasses for distance that automatically turn to shades as I go into brighter lighting. After I got these I was told I look a little like Clapton (their shaped the same) so I guess that''s good.
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All the best,
 
Date: 8/11/2006 11:02:40 AM
Author: Rhino

I realize this guy may have probably just found this on the net and soliciting info but as a vendor I tend to think from that perspective ... ie. perhaps a jeweler whom he likes and was working with found him this stone, etc. then he comes asking opinions and it gets tanked and is pointed in another direction when the stone really isn''t such a train wreck (don''t recall if he listed a price or not so not sure about value there).
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Rhino, I don''t see anyone suggesting he shouldn''t work with the jeweler he likes. No one is trying to point him away from his jeweler, or even away from the stone. But if he determined that he could do better with a more promising stone, there is NOTHING stopping him from having the jeweler he likes source it, is there?

His question was "any input?". As such, he''s soliciting opinions, and several of us gave our honest opinions. That''s what this site is for.

I really don''t know how you shop, but I can tell you that when I shop, I certainly hope to do a great deal better than "well, at least it''s not such a train wreck."

If I were the one asking, I''d hope that people would be kind enough to point me in a better direction if one existed....and that''s what I see happening here.

Since I''m not in the business, I''m not really looking to become an advocate for "it isn''t such a train wreck" stones. I can respect that as a vendor, you may have interest in promoting the ''consider wonky stones'' credo, and that''s completely fine.

Even still, I still think it''s valid for folks to point out that there may be better candidates out there.
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Date: 8/11/2006 11:02:40 AM
Author: Rhino

Not sure if you caught my short conversation with rogue in another thread but he had a 34.5/41.6 combo (GIA Ex) and the ring of death was not visible to him unless he blocked the pavilion.
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Again, I realize those exist....but why would I choose to buy a stone that looked good "unless I blocked the pavilion" if I could get a stone that looked good regardless, and it didn''t cost me more money? When I was buying a house, I wanted to find a house I loved all around.....not just a house that ''looked good as long as I was standing in the front yard and couldn''t see the back.''

Again, I can respect that some folks may like the wonky stones, and I can respect that some folks may choose a wonky stone over the traditionally superb stone becuase they like the individual personality of it. At least in that instance, they understand that there are more technically tight stones, but they prefer something else.
 

Thanks for the input - please direct me to a similar G eye clean Si1 or Vs2 and I will gladly consider - the stone in question was 20K for what everyone has said seems too much for something that would have been considered less than "ideal" in 2005. I would have to say I''m a little concerned with how what you call "steep and deep" stones are now considered Ex cut by the GIA. Could they retract this in the future in which case I would be left with a less than desirable diamond? Is this cut of stone more profitable to the cutter than say the one you mention above? To me 20K is a considerable decision and I don''t want to feel as thought I was ripped off at the end of the day. Thanks for taking the time to help me.


 
Hi Alj,

I hear where you''re coming from. I''m not advocating wonky stones but just not assuming it is or isn''t either way. The one I had seen happened to be pretty tight. I don''t see where the dude mentioned what he''s paying so we can''t form an opinion on whether its a good deal or not. In any case, not worth going back and forth over. I hear/understand where you''re coming from.

Peace,
Jonathan
 
Date: 8/11/2006 11:02:40 AM
Author: Rhino
Not sure if you caught my short conversation with rogue in another thread but he had a 34.5/41.6 combo (GIA Ex) and the ring of death was not visible to him unless he blocked the pavilion. I found his commentary interesting as I''m awaiting to see one of these myself. Ok ... rambled enough.
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Hi Rhino, as in the movie, Rogue is a girl.
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And one who lives in Manhattan, btw. If you''re ever in the city, you HAVE to let me take you to coffee just so I can hear your expert take on my stone!
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Kim N do you happen to work for whiteflash ?
 
Date: 8/11/2006 5:01:22 PM
Author: jleone01
Kim N do you happen to work for whiteflash ?
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all vendors have their affliation clearly visible in their signature line. obviously, kim does not work for wf.
 
Date: 8/11/2006 4:34:20 PM
Author: Rhino

I''m not advocating wonky stones but just not assuming it is or isn''t either way.
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I can''t speak for anyone else who contributed in this thread, but for my part, neither am I.

I''m not assuming the stone Jleone posted is or isn''t *anything*.

The only point of my contributions was this: There are crown/pavilion angle relationships that have a much higher PROBABILITY to perform well, and I prefer those possibilities. That simple.....and it''s still true as of this moment.
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Perhaps you missed the post I made following his assertion that he found the stone beautiful, so I''ll repeat it for your benefit:

"As long as YOU find the diamond in question beautiful, that''s the most important thing. "


Date: 8/11/2006 4:34:20 PM
Author: Rhino

I don''t see where the dude mentioned what he''s paying so we can''t form an opinion on whether its a good deal or not.
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Did I miss where someone suggested it is or isn''t a good deal? I didn''t (precisely because there''s not enough information provided to form an opinion), and I don''t see that anyone said so either way, so I''m not sure why you raise this point.
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